Do Businesses Have the Right to Refuse Service Based on Moral/Religious Objections?

[suebee]

I am as passionate in my posts as others are sarcastic and disrespectful Toughy. I debate topics with Adorable every day on facebook. I have no worries about posting a strongly worded response to her post. I know she'll actually DEBATE it if she decides to come back. It's too bad you weren't curious about the differences between our cultures. It might give you a little food for thought.

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by suebee

I am as passionate in my posts as others are sarcastic and disrespectful Toughy. I debate topics with Adorable every day on facebook. I have no worries about posting a strongly worded response to her post. I know she'll actually DEBATE it if she decides to come back. It's too bad you weren't curious about the differences between our cultures. It might give you a little food for thought.

good grief it was just a little teasing..........

<shaking my head>

[adorable]

Sue, can I borrow a million coins?

My post about Canada was a direct response to Ender's post. I just wanted to point out that Canada does have a history, as most countries, including the US. My extensive research for that one sentence post was a google search for "canadian atrocities" because I assumed there were some. I felt like Ender was singing 'Oh, Canada' - which is fine - but we all have our warts.

The US isn't some horrible place that does horrible things to people IMO. We are one country of many, a big one with lots of money and a powerful military, and our dirty laundry gets thrown around more than others.

There is a reason there isn't peace in the Middle East. Very little of that has to do with America. It has more to do with thousands of years of history that we, here, learn about in college. Families and tribes in the middle east have actually been LIVING it from the time they are born. A very different reality and hard for most of us to understand.

Germany has a much longer history then we do, as do many places around the world where mass atrocities have happened at the hands of government. To try to say that WE are on par in any way seems nonsensical to me. We have done bad things as a people. We do bad things as a people. We all have. We all do. We haven't been doing it nearly as long. That isn't an excuse for bad behavior, but at the very least we all need to acknowledge our own dirt before we start throwing stones. (I didn't feel like Ender was attacking the US necessarily - but there did seem to be a little bit of Canada is better then all these places including the US where bad things have happened. That may or may not have been his point.)

Native Americans in this country got fucked over long before anyone else. Same in Canada too. Indigenous people are still getting screwed in the Amazon and Africa. History repeats itself, over and over. In America we can say that we learn at the speed of light compared to other countries. Look at how far our society has come since 1787. And we built a country where you can walk four blocks and pass a synagogue, a baptist church, an adult book store, a catholic church and mosque. That to me is powerful.

The right for a business to refuse service to people may not be ideal for US (you and me) who might get discriminated against. I'll take it today, argue about it tonight and hope it changes tomorrow. And unlike many places in the world I have hope that it actually might. There are pockets of ignorance. I may die at the hands of an idiot. I will not die at the hands of a government official for being queer. (I realize that some minorities may not have that security btw)

Not everyone is thinking that tonight as they try to sleep with bombs flying over their homes. Just like their parents did. Their grandparents did. Their great grandparents did. Their great-great-great-great-great grandparents did.

[suebee]

I agree with everything except the right of a business to discriminate. I think any business should be able to decide who they serve UNLESS it is based on discrimination of an identified group. (we've already covered who this might include/who it does include under Canadian law)
Sooooo ......I guess we're back to square one! lol

BTW - my American dollar fetched me exactly ninty-five cents in Canada on Saturday.

[adorable]

Originally Posted by suebee

I agree with everything except the right of a business to discriminate. I think any business should be able to decide who they serve UNLESS it is based on discrimination of an identified group. (we've already covered who this might include/who it does include under Canadian law)
Sooooo ......I guess we're back to square one! lol

BTW - my American dollar fetched me exactly ninty-five cents in Canada on Saturday.

I will never forget the time I walked into a casino and my first quarter won me $700!!!! It wasn't until I took my pile of quarters to the cage & cashed in that I remembered I was in Canada.

I cried. So enjoy your windfall.

I don't think that businesses should discriminate against groups of people. I covered this in my "why I like protected classes" post. I do like Canada's gay marriage for all law and that everyone has health coverage. Apparently, we aren't taught much about Canadian history either. I did write a paper in the 3rd grade on Saskatchewan. I picked it because I liked the name. But I don't ever remember a class being offered on Canadian history ever.

That is odd now that I think about it. Why is that?

[suebee]

Originally Posted by adorable

I will never forget the time I walked into a casino and my first quarter won me $700!!!! It wasn't until I took my pile of quarters to the cage & cashed in that I remembered I was in Canada.

I cried. So enjoy your windfall.

I don't think that businesses should discriminate against groups of people. I covered this in my "why I like protected classes" post. I do like Canada's gay marriage for all law and that everyone has health coverage. Apparently, we aren't taught much about Canadian history either. I did write a paper in the 3rd grade on Saskatchewan. I picked it because I liked the name. But I don't ever remember a class being offered on Canadian history ever.

That is odd now that I think about it. Why is that?

You LIKED the name "Saskatchewan?

[adorable]

Originally Posted by suebee

You LIKED the name "Saskatchewan?

At the time I thought it was where eskimo's lived which made it that much cooler. Imagine my disappointment when I finally made it to the library and there were no igloo pictures in the Saskatchewan books.

Now stop forcing me to derail this thread. AND let me borrow a million coins.
Thanks.

[suebee]

Originally Posted by adorable

At the time I thought it was where eskimo's lived which made it that much cooler. Imagine my disappointment when I finally made it to the library and there were no igloo pictures in the Saskatchewan books.

Now stop forcing me to derail this thread. AND let me borrow a million coins.
Thanks.

The cheque's in the mail.

[AtLast]

I love Canada- great northern neighbor. however, it is not without black slavery as part of its own history and economy. In fact, Canada brought anti-slavery rules into its government in the 1830's via the British Crown, not as an independent country. Before the US, but not much before. It has a dark history concerning its native peoples as well.

Developed, industrialized nations, especially western, share many shameful practices. I feel like the important things that we need to to in order to change the effects of things like slavery and discrimination on all fronts is where we need to concentrate. Not many places in the world that don't have blood on "their" hands, historically.


http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.c...=A1ARTA0007449

Addition- As we are discussing in this thread, the "allies"- formed by the UN security counsel is bombing in Libya. Canada and Britian along with the US are involved. Yet, which of the 3 will be criticized the most about this?

[suebee]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

I love Canada- great northern neighbor. however, it is not without black slavery as part of its own history and economy. In fact, Canada brought anti-slavery rules into its government in the 1830's via the British Crown, not as an independent country. Before the US, but not much before. It has a dark history concerning its native peoples as well.

Developed, industrialized nations, especially western, share many shameful practices. I feel like the important things that we need to to in order to change the effects of things like slavery and discrimination on all fronts is where we need to concentrate. Not many places in the world that don't have blood on "their" hands, historically.


http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.c...=A1ARTA0007449

I guess I have to be very clear - and I've posted this here and in other threads: Canada is certainly not lily-white as far as it's history is concerned. But it seems to have evolved differently in so much as the U.S. has a much more prevelant problem with race relations today. I'm not saying that there isn't racism here either, but there is a tension in the States that always seems just below the boiling point. Is it because the practice of slavery, and therefore the population descended from them was so much larger? Is it because of the way that the U.S. declared it's independence and subsequently wrote a document that greatly valorized individual rights over collective? I don't know. But there are differences between the two countries today, and I think the laws against discrimination - such as the one first discussed by the OP are a reflection of those differences.

Food for thought, for sure.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by suebee

I guess I have to be very clear - and I've posted this here and in other threads: Canada is certainly not lily-white as far as it's history is concerned. But it seems to have evolved differently in so much as the U.S. has a much more prevelant problem with race relations today. I'm not saying that there isn't racism here either, but there is a tension in the States that always seems just below the boiling point. Is it because the practice of slavery, and therefore the population descended from them was so much larger? Is it because of the way that the U.S. declared it's independence and subsequently wrote a document that greatly valorized individual rights over collective? I don't know. But there are differences between the two countries today, and I think the laws against discrimination - such as the one first discussed by the OP are a reflection of those differences.

Food for thought, for sure.

Oh, I think that the structural and institutionalized racism stemming from US black slavery is very different than Canada. Our histories with native peoples is much more closely related.

There are many, many of Canada's political stances and policies that I wish the US would follow suit with- same-sex marriage and a public health care system for examples.

I agree that individual vs. collective "freedoms" is a large part of what does make our countries different within this context (the thread). I often have difficulty with just how stuck we can get in the US on this. Funny, I have always thought for me personally, this was due to my own family and ethnic background and the time frame in which my family came to the states. For me, as a person, individual rights do not trump what is best for the masses. Working for the common good is just part of my background and I have often felt alone in this as a US citizen.

I wonder, and do not know what the break down of POC to whites is in Canada. How diverse is Canada in terms of race and ethnicity within the overall population? And how does this compare to the US? (Now I have my work cut out for me!). And if it is not as diverse as the US, this might be part of the differences in racial and ethnic tensions- and yes, black slavery as an economic and structural institution along with post US Civil War Jim Crowe laws has a role that unfortunately does give the US a differing context.

Yet, both the US and Canada do not have a lot of room to talk when it comes to how native peoples were treated.

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

I wonder, and do not know what the break down of POC to whites is in Canada. How diverse is Canada in terms of race and ethnicity within the overall population? And how does this compare to the US? (Now I have my work cut out for me!). And if it is not as diverse as the US, this might be part of the differences in racial and ethnic tensions- and yes, black slavery as an economic and structural institution along with post US Civil War Jim Crowe laws has a role that unfortunately does give the US a differing context.

The question of demographics in Canada is difficult to answer because for some reason the government does not consider Aboriginal people to be POC. (I bet there are no Inuit, for example, who consider themselves white, though. So the whole thing makes absolutely no sense.) So this means that whenever you look at demographics in Canada the breakdown always includes First Nations people in with the Caucasian group.

So I googled around and found that in 2006 3.8% of the population is Aboriginal (First Nations, Inuit, Metis)

16.20% of the total population (according to the 2006 census) is a "visible minority". If you include Native people in with that it's exactly 20%. Breakdown:

Whitey - 80.0%
South Asian - 4.0%
Aboriginal - 3.8%
Chinese - 3.7%
Black - 2.5%
Filipino - 1.3%
Latin American - 1.0%
Arab - 0.9%
Southeast Asian - 0.7%
West Asian - 0.5%
Korean - 0.4%
Japanese - 0.2%
Multiple visible minorities - 0.3%
Visible minority, n.i.e. - 0.2%

I have no idea what "Visible minority, n.i.e." is. No idea.

Anyway, I don't know how things spread out in the US but you'll also find that what Canada looks like is REALLY different between our large cities and small towns. I know Toronto is a solid 50/50 split (like 50 percent of Torontonians are POC 50 percent are white - roughly. But this depends on the neighborhood, Scarborough for example was 68% POC in 2006 ) but if you go to a smaller town like the one I live in now you're likely to fall down dead from shock if you see a person of colour (okay, slight exaggeration. I just googled and my town is 7.1% POC - 4.5% being Aboriginal. But I still felt culture shock and like I landed in white-land when I moved here.)

But I don't think you can say "Canada has less POC ergo less racial tension". And the reason that I say/know this is because where I grew up (Toronto) things were pretty smooth. I wasn't witness to people walking around scared, or angry. With the exception of my Aunt's crazy motorcycle club ex-boyfriend (hated him! why would she let him around her children?) I never heard any sort of racial slur or was witness to any crazy-ass racist behaviour.

But the town I live in now is not like that. White people say the craziest shit when they think nobody is listening, seriously. For white Canadians it seems like the less contact we have with POC the more xenophobic we get.

I presume that to be exactly the opposite of how it is in the US.

ETA - I have heard that things are pretty tense (batshit, actually) in the prairies, though. That's probably due to my "sparsely populated tiny white towns" theory. Mind you, I know NOTHING about the prairies other than that I had to drive through them to get to BC.)

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by betenoire

But I don't think you can say "Canada has less POC ergo less racial tension". And the reason that I say/know this is because where I grew up (Toronto) things were pretty smooth. I wasn't witness to people walking around scared, or angry....

But the town I live in now is not like that. White people say the craziest shit when they think nobody is listening, seriously. For white Canadians it seems like the less contact we have with POC the more xenophobic we get.

Right. Usually the greater the level of contact between ourselves and people that differ from us in some way (sexual orientation, race), the lower the discrimination. So, it makes sense to me that Toronto would have less racism and there would be more racism in an area that has a lower number of POCs.

It is actually interesting to me b/c I have always assumed that Canada was more diverse than us, and that this was the reason there is less racism. But, I guess if it is actually accurate (less racism?), it is just ANOTHER case of you guys being a rockin' place to live!

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by betenoire

The question of demographics in Canada is difficult to answer because for some reason the government does not consider Aboriginal people to be POC. (I bet there are no Inuit, for example, who consider themselves white, though. So the whole thing makes absolutely no sense.) So this means that whenever you look at demographics in Canada the breakdown always includes First Nations people in with the Caucasian group.

So I googled around and found that in 2006 3.8% of the population is Aboriginal (First Nations, Inuit, Metis)

16.20% of the total population (according to the 2006 census) is a "visible minority". If you include Native people in with that it's exactly 20%. Breakdown:

Whitey - 80.0%
South Asian - 4.0%
Aboriginal - 3.8%
Chinese - 3.7%
Black - 2.5%
Filipino - 1.3%
Latin American - 1.0%
Arab - 0.9%
Southeast Asian - 0.7%
West Asian - 0.5%
Korean - 0.4%
Japanese - 0.2%
Multiple visible minorities - 0.3%
Visible minority, n.i.e. - 0.2%

I have no idea what "Visible minority, n.i.e." is. No idea.

Anyway, I don't know how things spread out in the US but you'll also find that what Canada looks like is REALLY different between our large cities and small towns. I know Toronto is a solid 50/50 split (like 50 percent of Torontonians are POC 50 percent are white - roughly. But this depends on the neighborhood, Scarborough for example was 68% POC in 2006 ) but if you go to a smaller town like the one I live in now you're likely to fall down dead from shock if you see a person of colour (okay, slight exaggeration. I just googled and my town is 7.1% POC - 4.5% being Aboriginal. But I still felt culture shock and like I landed in white-land when I moved here.)

But I don't think you can say "Canada has less POC ergo less racial tension". And the reason that I say/know this is because where I grew up (Toronto) things were pretty smooth. I wasn't witness to people walking around scared, or angry. With the exception of my Aunt's crazy motorcycle club ex-boyfriend (hated him! why would she let him around her children?) I never heard any sort of racial slur or was witness to any crazy-ass racist behaviour.

But the town I live in now is not like that. White people say the craziest shit when they think nobody is listening, seriously. For white Canadians it seems like the less contact we have with POC the more xenophobic we get.

I presume that to be exactly the opposite of how it is in the US.

ETA - I have heard that things are pretty tense (batshit, actually) in the prairies, though. That's probably due to my "sparsely populated tiny white towns" theory. Mind you, I know NOTHING about the prairies other than that I had to drive through them to get to BC.)

Thanks- helps!

In terms of what Suebee brought up- the never ending conflict just under the surface (which I believe exists in the US), I have to think about other political structures and differences. Also, immigration issues in the US, especially in times of economic stress, lights up racial and ethnic bigotry. That would be another area that I just don't have knowledge about in relationship to Canada.

Our recent Supreme court ruling allowing corporations to in effect stuff the pockets of politicians/legislation as individuals has brought the tensions here to a new level, I think.

This brings the US "individualism" paradigm right to front lines.

Something else- do Canadians feel that their middle class is being kicked to the curb?