Libya

[StillettoDoll]

I guess in the perfect world Gadhafi could just pack up his bags and leave. It would save alot of people alot of trouble.
Voted not sure.
if we can get in and out very quickly I'm for it.

[Mister Bent]

"Between war and passivity there are a thousand possibilities." - Howard Zinn

Which is to say, a military/armed response is not the only way to support democratic process. We could offer constructive aid that will provide support to those people already fighting for democracy within Libya, or for women's rights in Libya, Afghanistan, etc. I can't profess to know what that looks like, but I do know it seems unlikely as American foreign policy is not motivated by humanitarian issues, but by economic interests. We support regimes that cooperate with us and give us access to their oil (and other economic benefits).

The idea of sending in "sharpshooters," our own military (or private sector) assassins, is arrogant. Because we're the United States of America, we have the right to dispatch leaders who we find unpalatable? And yet, we are stunned when our nation is attacked.

[Daywalker]

Not to be selfish, but it is our Tax dollars that are once again saving
Humans from the Inhumane across the Planet. Our Country has Deficit
that is fucking ridiculous. Our schools, City-State-County programs, Health
Care, Social Security...Homelessness and a gaggle of other issues continue
to suffer while we spend 10 million bucks a day at minimum elsewhere in
the World to ensure they all have what we used to. It's about fucking time
some of the other Allies pitch in a Billion or three this time. Perhaps I am
just in an angry mood today, which is true...but this shit seems to have
triggered the Hippy today. There is something to be said for 'Setting
your own table before asking others to join you, and before teaching
others how to set theirs'. Our 'Table' is missing plates, cups...and napkins.
We owe many Countries a large amount of money. Why not ask for debt
forgiveness, etc...before going in to save a Country that we have an
outstanding balance with?

<<<End Rant Due To Head Explosion

[Apocalipstic]

No more wars.

Military stretched thin
Deployment after deployment
PTSD
High military family suicide rates

OK for US to bomb innocent civilians?

Qaddafi has been up to the same crap since I was 6, back in 1969. Why now?

[Andrew, Jr.]

Foreign Minister Moussa Koussa left Libya and went to Britain in protest over the attacks on civilians. This makes me wonder what he knows is coming in the future, and we don't know. Also, so close to the Royal Wedding. Makes one wonder of possibilities.

It is being reported that Koussa is talking about linking Gadhafi to the 1988 bombing of Flight 103 aka The Lockerbie Bombing now. But again, that is just the media. I am not sure of who to believe.

[EnderD_503]

Yes, because the last time you went around dropping bombs every which way in nations you have no fucking business in it worked out so great! [/sarcasm]

Next time European or North American nations go around "supporting democracy" and bombing the shit out of a "coincidentally" strategically placed (btw, to those talking about the oil/US connection, it is not so much the connection to the US as to Western Europe. Personally, I see why Obama has been very sceptical about this and probably is only falling to political pressure more than anything else) developing nation, ask yourself why no one gave a shit about the countless genocides and other civil wars and rebellions that have taken place throughout the modern era, that were not so strategically placed.

It's already become blatantly obvious that this was an attempt to garner more votes for Sarkozy in the upcoming French elections. Same with dropping support for Cameron in the UK. A war is always a nice way to distract your citizens from important national issues and the fact that they don't want you in office.

Anyone who believes their over-glorified western government is employing military intervention without imperialist dreams is sorely naive.

And funny how the nice little rebels are now on a spree to imprison and beat African migrant workers.

[Softhearted]

As long as the Western World will depend on oil, these type of interventions will occur... Of course the West is protecting its assets and oil, there is no doubt about it. This mission is not based on "humanitarian" reasons...



But how are we going to break the cycle of this oil dependency? Are you willing to buy an hybrid car? Use more public transportation? Avoid buying SUVs? Pay more for an alternative energy?

Just some thoughts...

[AtLast]

It is very important to check sources, especially internet blogs about these kinds of actions. There are not many sources I trust much any more. I'm tired of both left and right propaganda. There are agendas in both.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Softhearted

As long as the Western World will depend on oil, these type of interventions will occur... Of course the West is protecting its assets and oil, there is no doubt about it. This mission is not based on "humanitarian" reasons...

Yes, it is very obvious but there is far too much talk around here about "humanitarian reasonings" behind French/British/American intervention that's a bit scary and reminding of the last holy geostrategic war. I think its important to recognise that this has nothing to do with humanitarianism, we shouldn't have any illusions about western motives. It's quite dangerous to have such illusions.

Originally Posted by Softhearted

But how are we going to break the cycle of this oil dependency? Are you willing to buy an hybrid car? Use more public transportation? Avoid buying SUVs? Pay more for an alternative energy?

Just some thoughts...

Good questions. For myself I can answer that I don't own a car to begin with, and my only methods of transportation are public transit, my bicycle and my own two feet. I'm also very supportive of expanding public transit, but unfortunately we don't have the best mayor in power here in T.O. He is not particularly pro-TTC or pro-bike paths.

As far as alternative energies, I think it's not so difficult to power a home with alternative energy as some make it sound. Especially if you have a few people with even a small amount of income sharing a living space. Of course, there are still many complications, but it's good to see some nations like Germany and Holland (sometimes I wonder why the hell I ever moved back to North America lol) slowly advancing as far as solar energy and wind power.

As for transportation, the Central/Northern European model is very admirable again. I never saw as massive bike racks as I did in Utrecht or Nijmegen. The Dutch are completely enamoured with bikes, as are the Germans but I don't think I ever saw a literally parking-lot sized group of bike racks like I did in Holland. Though public transit is a prefered method of transporation, they aren't as obsessed with large trucks/SUVs as North America is. Car owners mostly own small cars, not huge gas guzzlers. That would be a good trend to see in NA.

Still, obviously there is oil dependency, but it's good to see some nations moving away from it and it gives me some hope. Too bad we can't jump ahead 50 years, cause I've no doubt things will be different then as far as this oil dependency in Europe. Who knows which way North America will go. The only thing that worries me is that France was talking about setting up solar pannels in the middle east and Africa, running to Western Europe via Turkey which has its own political issues with it. Bah. We'll see.

Anyways, all this to say that I think the population, at least in Europe, is becoming increasingly open to alternative forms of energy and public transit and bicycles have always been fairly popular there (thanks to a wide network of bike paths and very efficient public transit). There is a bit of this in Canada and the United States as well, and hopefully that will grow as well. What worries me in Canada is our current PM and the coming elections that may put us in a worse situation in the future, including environmentally. But hopefully popular opinions on alternative energy and alternative methods of transportation will continue to change.

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

It is very important to check sources, especially internet blogs about these kinds of actions. There are not many sources I trust much any more. I'm tired of both left and right propaganda. There are agendas in both.

Well, evidently everyone has an agenda. Even humanitarianism is technically an agenda. Even then I am against foreign intervention. It reeks far too much of policing. Post-WWII this kind of militarism has never ended well...ever. In the long term it is no good for the country being assaulted by western powers, nor the nations doing the assaulting.

As far as sources, of course nothing can be seen as 100%, but right now I'm more confident in sources like Al Jazeera, BBC, The Globe and Mail and Toronto Star than blogs and such. Also there are some interesting facebook feeds on the situation in places like Tunisia and elsewhere.

Anyways, in other news some interesting turn of events in Egypt:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/programme...lk/9441935.stm

I was really hoping Egypt would not swing that way. There seemed some hope in their revolution, but like I think I was saying in another topic, there's always been that behind the scenes presence of the Muslim Brotherhood as the most organised of those rebeling.

And more of Gaddafi's men are defecting: http://english.aljazeera.net/news/af...103411544.html