Did the Pakistan government know Osama bin Laden was there?

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Obama said during the 2008 presidential campaign that if Pakistan was unable or unwilling to get Bin Laden that we should go in there and get him. He fulfilled the promise he made. They did it as efficiently as possible. We could have had McCain running the ship instead.

Personally, I have a hard time with assassinations, period- and that has been part of my somberness and struggle with this. There is also the dimensions of being closer to the NYC 9/11 attacks wearing on me. My first choice would have been to take him alive and try him not only in the US, but in all countries he had a hand in terrorist murders. I honestly don’t want this to lead to more suck “operations.”

I agree with what you say here in terms of the "warning" and something I have been thinking about is that bin Laden knew full well he was a marked man, yet, he had his wives and kids with him! Says quite a bit about his fanatical narcissism as well as how he felt about women. Also, his cultural make up.

I believe that most of us would "hide" without our loved ones with us. Although, my guess is that women/wives were only around for sex, having his kids (hopefully sons) and to wait non him. Sons were to be with him to learn his philosophy and become warriors for the "cause."

I don't know the ages of all of the children that were there. And I am appalled that a parent would expose them to such danger. Parents (as well as spouses) are supposed to protect loved ones. Then again, I know I am worlds apart from this man culturally. Not even close in terms of these kinds of values.

[BullDog]

I would have preferred him to be taken alive as well, but I am not sure how feasible that was without him surrendering willingly. I see things being run much differently under Obama than they were previously or would have been under McCain. I don't see this as revenge. I see it as a demonstration of at least partial competence in dealing with a terrorist leader- that our Intelligence, Commander In Chief/President and Military worked in unison to get the job done. It wasn't perfect. There are no easy solutions to difficult problems. We could have not pursued him, but I am not sure what good that would do. For those critical of what has taken place I am wondering what they would do instead.

[rockybcn]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Personally, I have a hard time with assassinations, period- and that has been part of my somberness and struggle with this. There is also the dimensions of being closer to the NYC 9/11 attacks wearing on me. My first choice would have been to take him alive and try him not only in the US, but in all countries he had a hand in terrorist murders. I honestly don’t want this to lead to more suck “operations.”

I agree with what you say here in terms of the "warning" and something I have been thinking about is that bin Laden knew full well he was a marked man, yet, he had his wives and kids with him! Says quite a bit about his fanatical narcissism as well as how he felt about women. Also, his cultural make up.

I believe that most of us would "hide" without our loved ones with us. Although, my guess is that women/wives were only around for sex, having his kids (hopefully sons) and to wait non him. Sons were to be with him to learn his philosophy and become warriors for the "cause."

I don't know the ages of all of the children that were there. And I am appalled that a parent would expose them to such danger. Parents (as well as spouses) are supposed to protect loved ones. Then again, I know I am worlds apart from this man culturally. Not even close in terms of these kinds of values.

We live in a country (USA) where we have certain freedoms and privileges. We dont always understand the mindset of what other cultures and religions uphold as more important. We have generations of people that were forced to marry or in prearranged marriages because it was necessary for financial or religious reasons. We now have the luxury of choosing our lifemates because we fall in love or we want someone to provide us a good lifestyle,or for whatever our reasons...it is ours to choose. I got to know a Pakistani man here in my barrio that I respect completely. His marriage was prearranged and he just had his 3rd child last year. He has been married to his wife for 15 years. He showed me pictures of the family and he appeared proud of his children. I asked him about his prearranged marriage and having been with his wife that long I asked him when he had fallen in love with her. He looked at me strangely and said...."I dont know about love,I have no feelings that way. When I go home to visit my family every two years, I have my own private quarters in the house. I am there to have my needs taken care of and see to it that the children will one day be the providers of the family." The families all live together in one huge home,brothers and their wives and children,parents,grandparents. It is the duty of the first born son to provide for the whole extended family. Ali is the third born son,he had to take on this responsibility because the first and second son were both handicapped. But he takes it with great pride. He has spent more time away from his family than with. So I guess its like that old song of Tina Turner...Whats love got to do with it? Bin Laden, I am sure knew he would meet his maker sooner rather than later... and what better way to show his family the greatest reward than the afterlife, with him....the martyr. Maybe this was the only way he knew for showing his family a love greater than anything he was capable of giving?

[Martina]

We don't know anything about his relationships. Assuming it was exploitative reads like cultural stereotyping.

[Chancie]

I find the posting of this thread to be completely shit stirring.

I know that many people, all over the world, are fascinated by recent events,

And I know that there are members here who follow serious news,

What interest is served by a question that is deliberately written to incite controversial stand taking?

I just turned 50, and apparently I'm taking a public stand against folks inciting drama.

[Glenn]

Rockybcn; Bin Ladin was'nt a martyr. What martyr cowers behind his wife? Ghandi was a martyr! Ghandi predicted that Pakistan and India would be at war. His prophesy was 4 wars to be exact. "Each one being worse than the previous". Ghandi even was willing to give up his entire cabinet including Nehru for a Moslem cabinet to keep India united because the Hindu's out-numbered the Moslems.

[Glenn]

Folks; I just heard the Telegraph news say that Osama Bin Laden DID NOT cower behind his wife, nor use her as a shield like some cowards.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Wow, I have gotten to post #26 and I had to stop and take a deep breath because I will be 100% honest with you all today, I am sick to my stomach, physically want to throw up sick after reading members of this community use racial slurs such as what's been used.

Ender, first of all how dare you take it upon yourself to be ok as a WHITE male in this world and use the word *jap* and *spic*?? I am disgusted OFFENDED and I can not believe I read what I just read, could you not have used the * for the words (ex: j** or sp***) and explained the shortened versions of the racial slurs for japanese and mexican people??

Do you know how disgusting and disheartening it was to see you an *evolved* (as you proclaim) member of this site use these terms so freely? A white member using these terms so freely when you are a person who posts with intellectual wit you chose to fucking use these terms?? Really???

Did you take the time to think how this may or is making some of us feel here?

Same thing with the shortening of Paskistani PEOPLE WHAT is wrong with you people?? What is going on with the blatant disrepect and blatant RACISM that I have had the displeasure to witness from the white members of this community?? Why is it that we (POC) are not given a grain of thought when you come up in here and post these slurs?

Why is it, that a white human being thinks they are entitled to so much space? Why can't I have the same kind of safe space, the same kind of consideration?

Why is it, that if a POC continues to ask white members of this community to refer to us as this and not this, white members of this community do not listen?

Why is it that white members of this community think they can continue to use racial slurs, tell us (POC) what we can and can't be called, and why is it that no matter how much anyone points it out it continues?

I'm angry, sad, and DISGUSTED and I've only reached post # 26 at all the racism that has been displayed.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Ender, first of all how dare you take it upon yourself to be ok as a WHITE male in this world and use the word *jap* and *spic*?? I am disgusted OFFENDED and I can not believe I read what I just read, could you not have used the * for the words (ex: j** or sp***) and explained the shortened versions of the racial slurs for japanese and mexican people??

Do you know how disgusting and disheartening it was to see you an *evolved* (as you proclaim) member of this site use these terms so freely? A white member using these terms so freely when you are a person who posts with intellectual wit you chose to fucking use these terms?? Really???

Did you take the time to think how this may or is making some of us feel here?

Same thing with the shortening of Paskistani PEOPLE WHAT is wrong with you people?? What is going on with the blatant disrepect and blatant RACISM that I have had the displeasure to witness from the white members of this community?? Why is it that we (POC) are not given a grain of thought when you come up in here and post these slurs?

I'd like to address this, since it was directed towards me. I can understand why you are upset and rightfully so, and actually I did stop and think whether to post the slurs in their full spelling. I'm sorry that you were upset by it, but I would like to explain my reasoning.

The reason I chose to do so is this: Two people in this thread saw fit to shorten the word Pakistani, which is a well known racial slur for South Asians. I was fairly shocked at seeing people throwing the word around as though it were appropriately interchangeable with "Pakistani" and not even mods seemed phased by the use of that slur despite that in the past this forum has been anti-racist.

And that is why I chose to type out its equivalent among other ethnicities in full: Because it should be shocking to everyone, and just as shocking as terms that I've seen more people here averse to using. There should not be a racial hierarchy any more than there should be a gender hierarchy. It is not "more ok" to use derogatory terms for Pakistanis than it is to use them for the Japanese, Chinese or those who hail from Central and South America. I get the impression that those who used those terms still do not understand that they are on par with the terms I used.

Btw, the reason I put them in quotations was because I was not referring to the people that some use them to refer to, but referring to the slurs themselves as a way of pointing out how inappropriate and shocking it should be to use the Pakistani equivalent, and that calling Pakistanis derogatory terms is EXACTLY on par with the two slurs I used to make my point (and hopefully you did at least see my point). And that is exactly what the post said: that it was just as offensive as those words...so if people are barely going to bat an eye at someone using racial slurs towards Pakistanis, then maybe they need to think about what their reaction might be if the posters had used other slurs.

So please, by all means continue to be disgusted and horrified. In fact, everyone should be, and if you choose to feel that way about me, by all means do so if it means people are going to wake up and realise that South Asians and Arabs are human beings as well and by no means "fair game" for racial slurs just because certain governments and medias wage war on them.

As for my supposed "evolved" state...well, hopefully at least now I've dispelled that thought from your mind. I'm certainly no more or less evolved than any other human being, and this isn't any attempt at false modesty. If this is what you think of me then I'd like to say that I'm a pretty pathetic human being in most cases with little ability to interact with people without turning into a nervous wreck, whether I tend to be a long-winded nervous wreck or not. I thought I'd just add this because I really don't hold any lofty illusions about myself, in fact quite the opposite and I'm just as fallible as anyone else. Perhaps I should have censored those slurs and perhaps it was a mistake not to, but hopefully you can understand why I thought it necessary at the time considering that few actually seemed to be shocked at all by the racial slur for Pakistanis used on the first page by popcorninthesofa and rocky. I thought people should have been shocked by it as much as any other, but perhaps I went about displaying why they should be shocked in the wrong way. Things are always easier in retrospect.

Cheers,

Ender