Did the Pakistan government know Osama bin Laden was there?

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Ender, first of all how dare you take it upon yourself to be ok as a WHITE male in this world and use the word *jap* and *spic*?? I am disgusted OFFENDED and I can not believe I read what I just read, could you not have used the * for the words (ex: j** or sp***) and explained the shortened versions of the racial slurs for japanese and mexican people??

Do you know how disgusting and disheartening it was to see you an *evolved* (as you proclaim) member of this site use these terms so freely? A white member using these terms so freely when you are a person who posts with intellectual wit you chose to fucking use these terms?? Really???

Did you take the time to think how this may or is making some of us feel here?

Same thing with the shortening of Paskistani PEOPLE WHAT is wrong with you people?? What is going on with the blatant disrepect and blatant RACISM that I have had the displeasure to witness from the white members of this community?? Why is it that we (POC) are not given a grain of thought when you come up in here and post these slurs?

I'd like to address this, since it was directed towards me. I can understand why you are upset and rightfully so, and actually I did stop and think whether to post the slurs in their full spelling. I'm sorry that you were upset by it, but I would like to explain my reasoning.

The reason I chose to do so is this: Two people in this thread saw fit to shorten the word Pakistani, which is a well known racial slur for South Asians. I was fairly shocked at seeing people throwing the word around as though it were appropriately interchangeable with "Pakistani" and not even mods seemed phased by the use of that slur despite that in the past this forum has been anti-racist.

And that is why I chose to type out its equivalent among other ethnicities in full: Because it should be shocking to everyone, and just as shocking as terms that I've seen more people here averse to using. There should not be a racial hierarchy any more than there should be a gender hierarchy. It is not "more ok" to use derogatory terms for Pakistanis than it is to use them for the Japanese, Chinese or those who hail from Central and South America. I get the impression that those who used those terms still do not understand that they are on par with the terms I used.

Btw, the reason I put them in quotations was because I was not referring to the people that some use them to refer to, but referring to the slurs themselves as a way of pointing out how inappropriate and shocking it should be to use the Pakistani equivalent, and that calling Pakistanis derogatory terms is EXACTLY on par with the two slurs I used to make my point (and hopefully you did at least see my point). And that is exactly what the post said: that it was just as offensive as those words...so if people are barely going to bat an eye at someone using racial slurs towards Pakistanis, then maybe they need to think about what their reaction might be if the posters had used other slurs.

So please, by all means continue to be disgusted and horrified. In fact, everyone should be, and if you choose to feel that way about me, by all means do so if it means people are going to wake up and realise that South Asians and Arabs are human beings as well and by no means "fair game" for racial slurs just because certain governments and medias wage war on them.

As for my supposed "evolved" state...well, hopefully at least now I've dispelled that thought from your mind. I'm certainly no more or less evolved than any other human being, and this isn't any attempt at false modesty. If this is what you think of me then I'd like to say that I'm a pretty pathetic human being in most cases with little ability to interact with people without turning into a nervous wreck, whether I tend to be a long-winded nervous wreck or not. I thought I'd just add this because I really don't hold any lofty illusions about myself, in fact quite the opposite and I'm just as fallible as anyone else. Perhaps I should have censored those slurs and perhaps it was a mistake not to, but hopefully you can understand why I thought it necessary at the time considering that few actually seemed to be shocked at all by the racial slur for Pakistanis used on the first page by popcorninthesofa and rocky. I thought people should have been shocked by it as much as any other, but perhaps I went about displaying why they should be shocked in the wrong way. Things are always easier in retrospect.

Cheers,

Ender

[The_Lady_Snow]

With all due respect Ender, that is not your word to use, you don't own those words, you certainly do not live them or have to bear them, so using them as an example doesn't make it any better, if you wanted to make a point you could of very easily by explaining without using a word or offering an explanation as you did AFTER the fact. It's harmful, being now that you use them I guarantee some other ass hat will too since *you* thought you could, and YOU can't you are white.... This is what is tiring when a white person still continues to give me an excuse and validation to why they used them, you can't so don't please.

[Toughy]

Snow............

Several times in various places on this forum, you (and only you) have suggested it's inappropriate for white folks to use the terms 'red', 'brown', 'yellow' and 'black'. If that is true, why is it ok for you to use the term 'white'? You are not white, so why should you get to use that term? At least that is how I understand your logic.

Just to be clear, I don't give two shits if you call me white, of European descent, honkey, whitey or any other version or slur about white folks. I just don't like what looks and feels like a hypocritical stance. I don't think that is your intention, but it sure looks and feels that way to me.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Toughy AREN'T you assuming I'm not white? or that I have no white brothers, sisters, Dad, Uncles, Aunts, Cousins, or better yet the person who raped my mother and hence who I came to be was. Did you ever bother to ask that to yourself?

And why can't I as a POC ask that we not be compared to crayola? Curious Toughy I really am, and once again why is it that when a POC color even if it's Snow again asking why can't it be respected?

Originally Posted by Toughy

Snow............

Several times in various places on this forum, you (and only you) have suggested it's inappropriate for white folks to use the terms 'red', 'brown', 'yellow' and 'black'. If that is true, why is it ok for you to use the term 'white'? You are not white, so why should you get to use that term? At least that is how I understand your logic.

Just to be clear, I don't give two shits if you call me white, of European descent, honkey, whitey or any other version or slur about white folks. I just don't like what looks and feels like a hypocritical stance. I don't think that is your intention, but it sure looks and feels that way to me.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Have you guys looked around our community? How many POC stick around? How many of us are posting and hanging out in here without having to call ism after ism after ism. Does it make us wonder why after some of the posts in here? Or do you just not care?

[violaine]

june, i did cite another source. if my opinion is different, but on topic, how does that automatically equate to argumentative? black as well as african american are in my vocabulary, and it is imperative to write that i'm not a racist.

in some of the red zones, there are a few lines at the top of threads about people being able to engage [without moderation] directly with the poster, and that is what i would like to be able to do, please.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I would like to clarify that NONE of the racial slurs and covert racial pokes were done in any Red Zone threads. Even then I would think we would not go on there and use them since it's clearly not ok.

[Random]

Putting in my .02

Until two mins ago I didn't know that the P word was a slur... I've used it because the word Pakistani is just longer to say and type. I assumed it was like Okie and Arkie...

Wiktinary is your friend...

[Random]

I have a real question that I've been biting my tongue over.

If you have a POC saying please don't refer to POC by their skin color, and then you have another POC stating that they prefer to be called by their skin color then how do you not make a racial statement when talking about race?

Snows request to V to not use skin color vs AJ (Dreadgeeks) request to not be called POC or African American, but Black is what brought this question to mind.

I also thought that everyone was individual and that one person couldn't speak for all people.

I am confused... I'm not being snarky or have a grudge against Snow... I'm just a bit confused about the rules for talking about race on this board.. Do I discount the preferences of my acquaintance in real time to accomidate one persons personal preference?

I can understand one person saying.. Do not refer to me by my color, but It confuses me to have one person speak for all.

I don't post in the racial threads because I really don't want to make a major fux pas while stumbling my way through unlearning white privilage and racism....

[Toughy]

I will say this directly to Snow: You have always identified yourself as a POC, latina to be specific. You always speak as a POC in these conversations. What else would you have me believe about you? Are you telling me now that you are white or mixed race? I don't understand. My beliefs about you were not created in a vacumn without you. I was asking for clarification, not being disrespectful. It is ALWAYS right to ask for clarification of anyone if you don't understand something they are saying or asking.

As far as I know, there is no beef between me and Snow. We disagree from time to time about some subjects. For Me that does NOT add up to a personal beef. June, can you clarify for me why you think I have a personal beef with Snow? You and I have never had a conversation about Snow.

I addressed Snow because she is the one who has broached the subject of using 'crayola colors' when refering to POC. My questions and statements were about clarification of what she has requested......it was not a personal attack. In retrospect, I should have stated my questions and comments differently and left Snow's name out of it. I should have addressed the concepts only as I am doing below.

This is about terminology when refering to people and their ancestral origins. It has been stated that using the colors black, yellow, red, brown is not ok for white folks. However it is apparently ok to call folks of AngloSaxon/Europeon descent white. That is not a logical position. If white folks can't call POC by colors, then POCs can't call Europeans white. If brown is wrong, then white is wrong. It is accepted that racial slurs of any sort are wrong. It's wrong to call a black person the 'n' word and it's wrong to call a white person 'whitey' or 'honkey'. Crayola colors are no different. Respect is a two way street.

I also must point out something that is glaringly obvious to me. It is absolutely not logical to say don't call POC by color. The term POC means People of Color. The term itself is about skin color other than white.

I don't believe creating a minefield of acceptable/unacceptable words is useful. I know plenty of folks from all kinds of ancestry that don't have any issue with crayola colors. There are black folk in this country who do NOT claim Africa as their ancestry and don't want to be called African Americans. I know black folk from Brazil, who speak Portuguese, that would be way pissed if you called them African. I know white folks from Africa who consider themselves Africans. Africans can be white or black. US citizens can be black and from anywhere in the world. Same goes for brown and red and yellow and white.

I also would make a request. I think this conversation needs to happen in a respectful way. It does not belong in a thread about Pakistan's knowlege about bin Laden. Perhaps a new thread could be started about terminology and the appropriate posts could be put in it.....we need the context so future readers will see where it came from.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Toughy, you assumed I had no white, and if we want to get to the nitty gritty I can't not even in a census claim it since I am of Hispanic descent as they so kindly put it, when I check the census box I check what I am and that is Hispanic or better yet LATINO/A. Just because I was or have some form of white origin in me (btw I don't know exactly since the deed was not consentual) that doesn't mean I was raised, or am I culturally so, I was born in Mexico, my mother is mexican and so is my other family, now the man who raised me is white, he is my father the only one I know of. I don't have to explain why I use LATINA as my label just the same way I don't ask you to explain to me why at one time you use she or others hy.

Do you not see how disrespectful and ugly that is? It's who I am I am LATINA the other blood or heritage that is in my DNA doesn't erase the fact I was raised as such, born as such and kept as such and yet my labels and how I choose to identify are continously questioned by people of lighter skin than myself. I don't even get to choose to use white if I wanted to Tougy and you care to know why?

Cause for some fucked up unknown reason people who are lighter than I and see my darker skin *automatically* assume I don't even belong here or hthat I am not American.

I am, I live in the United States of America, I am a LATINA woman, not a brown woman, my name is Snow and I am a LATINA woman who happens to have a dash of non LATINO blood in me yet I still can't identify as so because not only do caucasians not allow it, neither does a goverment when counting the great people of this nation.

I don't feel this is a derailment of the thread, the racial slurs that have been used and have been thrown in clear print, yet for some fucked up unknown reason people want to jump down on me for not allowing them?

Do you not see the ridiculousness of that?

Should I just continue to sit silent and not derail a thread when racist comments are being made? I just don't understand how much more (even if it ONE POC saying please don't) this community expects for POC to take.

Is that the goal, to have all POC silenced regardless of how small and simple the request and for the sake of not derailing?

Is this for realz?

Originally Posted by Toughy

I will say this directly to Snow: You have always identified yourself as a POC, latina to be specific. You always speak as a POC in these conversations. What else would you have me believe about you? Are you telling me now that you are white or mixed race? I don't understand. My beliefs about you were not created in a vacumn without you. I was asking for clarification, not being disrespectful. It is ALWAYS right to ask for clarification of anyone if you don't understand something they are saying or asking.

As far as I know, there is no beef between me and Snow. We disagree from time to time about some subjects. For Me that does NOT add up to a personal beef. June, can you clarify for me why you think I have a personal beef with Snow? You and I have never had a conversation about Snow.

I addressed Snow because she is the (only?) one who has broached the subject of using 'crayola colors' when refering to POC. My questions and statements were about clarification of what she has requested......it was not a personal attack. In retrospect, I should have stated my questions and comments differently and left Snow's name out of it. I should have addressed the concepts only as I am doing below.

This is about terminology when refering to people and their ancestral origins. It has been stated that using the colors black, yellow, red, brown is not ok for white folks. However it is apparently ok to call folks of AngloSaxon/Europeon descent white. That is not a logical position. If white folks can't call POC by colors, then POCs can't call Europeans white. If brown is wrong, then white is wrong. It is accepted that racial slurs of any sort are wrong. It's wrong to call a black person the 'n' word and it's wrong to call a white person 'whitey' or 'honkey'. Crayola colors are no different. Respect is a two way street.

I also must point out something that is glaringly obvious to me. It is absolutely not logical to say don't call POC by color. The term POC means People of Color. The term itself is about skin color other than white.

I don't believe creating a minefield of acceptable/unacceptable words is useful. I know plenty of folks from all kinds of ancestry that don't have any issue with crayola colors. There are black folk in this country who do NOT claim Africa as their ancestry and don't want to be called African Americans. I know black folk from Brazil, who speak Portuguese, that would be way pissed if you called them African. I know white folks from Africa who consider themselves Africans. Africans can be white or black. US citizens can be black and from anywhere in the world. Same goes for brown and red and yellow and white.

I also would make a request. I think this conversation needs to happen in a respectful way. It does not belong in a thread about Pakistan's knowlege about bin Laden. Perhaps a new thread could be started about terminology and the appropriate posts could be put in it.....we need the context so future readers will see where it came from.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by June

Violaine, this thread is not in the Red Zone. You can say you're not a racist, that's fine. But if you live as and are seen as a white person, then you probably need to check your own privilege.

June (Moderator voice)

Maybe I should have put it in the Red Zone- although, I thought only admin/mods could do that.

Saying this because the nature of the subject matter is obviously bringing up many controversies. I honestly wanted to talk about what effect bin Laden's death (and the way it was done) in relation to Pakistan and the US's relationship.

I don't know what the decision process is for moving a thread to the Red Zone, but request that that be considered.

[Chancie]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

<snip>

Saying this because the nature of the subject matter is obviously bringing up many controversies. I honestly wanted to talk about what effect bin Laden's death (and the way it was done) in relation to Pakistan and the US's relationship.

<snip>

But this is not the question you asked. You asked:

'Did the Pakistan [sic] government know Osama bin Laden was there?'

Is it possible that you can not see the difference?

[Martina]

i agree that we have few POC here and had few at the other site. There is a reason they leave. It's not THIS site's or even the other's fault although they were way lax and late about addressing the racism issue. It's a social issue. It's something we have to work at to change because if we don't, there is too much racism for most POC to tolerate.

That said, i think using a pejorative in quotes is OK if you are discussing the word and its use, not using it to offend. If it offends, it is OK to scale it back to a usage such as the n-word. But using the words in quotes is not a racist act. That it can still hurt is clear. And if that is the case, and someone tells you to stop, then by all means stop.

The same with the word "Black." i use African American at least 90 percent of the time. i hear myself use "Black" sometimes, sometimes in the context of asking someone's race. My students, who are African American and Latino, use it regularly and not as a pejorative. i just read a lovely poem by a student about her black pride. She was riffing off of a Tupac poem.

As always we should address and refer to people as they choose. i do not think modding someone for culturally accepted practices makes a lot of sense though.

[violaine]

i do not have a personal issue whenever critically thinking/sharing on a subject. i really like this [and other thought-provoking] conversations as well, and would also like for them to respectfully continue. my participation in a thread- i.e., typing out words or thanking, does not mean i have personal agenda if i do or do not not agree with someone either. if i type that is not where i'm coming from, isn't that as important as anyone else wanting to be heard on anti-racism?

i like opening up for clarification and moving on- fostering more positive relationships.

i do not know a lot about pakistan save in words, as i've never visited the country. openly discussing political issues differs greatly in other regions of the world so much from our freedom/ culture here.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Chancie

But this is not the question you asked. You asked:

'Did the Pakistan [sic] government know Osama bin Laden was there?'

Is it possible that you can not see the difference?

Here is my OP statement (#1)-

A poll and place to discuss the role, if any of Pakistan's government or military having knowledge that bin Laden was living under their noses.

For a discussion of what this might mean for the future US relationship between the US and Pakistan if it turns out that Pakistan was harboring him.

What should, if anything the US do about the billions of dollars per year we give Pakistan?

Is this relationship helpful in building better relations with Islam at all and this part of the world? Or, is the US using Pakistan in some ways? Or, are we engaged with Pakistan because it has nuclear weapons and a negative relationship with India?

And any other points people want to bring up! It is a complex situation and grows even more complex with the US killing of bin Laden in Pakistan in a manner that some believe to be wrong- entering a sovereign nation to kill someone without permission to do so.