"straight" women and Butches.

[Quintease]

Originally Posted by DomnNC

I truly find the dilemna over what one looks like to another quite humorous at times. Who the heck cares what you look like to anyone else, straight, queer, bi, trans, etcetcetc? Who cares? What ever happened in being secure enough in yourself to know what/who you are and to hell with what anyone else thinks?

It's called invisibility, and actually we wouldn't care, except it sucks.

[BullDog]

It isn't discussing straight people that's a sore point, it's being constantly measured against them that is. Femmes do not want to be compared with straight women, many butches do not want to be compared with straight males. Femmes are frequently not taken seriously as lesbians and/or queers. There is a big invisibility factor at play and also there have been many discussions over the years where some butches seem to think straight women are the ultimate prize- which leads to a lot of sore feelings, particularly when you combine that with the invisibility issues.

Also, if you really want to know why straight people feel certain ways, I do think you need to ask them.

Welcome to the site Merlin, you seem like a nice person. We need to listen to you and understand you better and hopefully you will see some of the other points being raised here as well.

[Martina]

i was in a cafe in Pacifica a week or so ago and overheard three adult daughters talking to their mother about gay folks. Apparently they were comparing who they had gotten in contact with from the past via facebook. And one of them had turned out to be a dyke. The mom said she always knew that the girl would become a lesbian because of how she looked and went on to add that the girl's sister had always been the more attractive one.

The daughters did not take that on, but they began discussing the whole choice vs. born that way issue. The daughters all thought gay people "couldn't help it." They were trying to convice mom not to want to spit right after she said the word gay or lesbian. Mom was hilarious. She didn't care if it is a choice or if we are born gay. She thinks we are ugly and gross (we flaunt our sexuality), and even if we "can't help it," we are to be avoided because . . . well yuck.

The daughters were all middle aged. i don't think they lived a life any different from their mother's. One said she is a housewife. But attitudes have changed.

Anyway, part of the reason i tell this is that that's what happens to us -- those who pass. We get to hear some really fun stuff.

And while mainstream lesbians might ignore us or want us to behave more conventionally, i think they have our backs more than people like this mom, who i have no doubt would not raise her voice if the day ever came again when we were loaded onto trains. . . .

[Toughy]

by Quintease <snip>
Statistically a homosexual woman is only 75% gay or more. This says to me that a straight woman can be 75% straight and still call herself a 100% straight woman, even if she's shagging dykes.
<snip>

Where did you come up with this 75% gay number? I need way more information.

[Quintease]

Originally Posted by Toughy

Where did you come up with this 75% gay number? I need way more information.

Oh my god, my house is like a library! My bf cries every time he walks through the door as we're supposed to be moving in together next year....

The best book I've found on this (so far, but there are a few) is Sexual Fluidity. It basically backs up what a few studies have found (since Kinsey) that very few homosexuals consider themselves 100%, though men and women score differently.

[intrigue_in916]

[QUOTE=HowSoonIsNow;335284]For me: Female masculinity is hot.

It's not about the *best of both worlds*--it is about being aware of one's desires--and that goes both ways for butches as well as the femmes...and all people, no?[/QUOTE

I throughly agree that female masculinity is hott. I believe that a feminine lesbian compliments her masculine lesbian partner. Im quite frankly all the feminine woman i need.

[intrigue_in916]

:

Originally Posted by BullDog

It isn't discussing straight people that's a sore point, it's being constantly measured against them that is. Femmes do not want to be compared with straight women, many butches do not want to be compared with straight males. Femmes are frequently not taken seriously as lesbians and/or queers. There is a big invisibility factor at play and also there have been many discussions over the years where some butches seem to think straight women are the ultimate prize- which leads to a lot of sore feelings, particularly when you combine that with the invisibility issues.

Also, if you really want to know why straight people feel certain ways, I do think you need to ask them.

Welcome to the site Merlin, you seem like a nice person. We need to listen to you and understand you better and hopefully you will see some of the other points being raised here as well.

Im only invisible if I choose to be, I take myself seriously, when it counts most to me. People come to now this about me.
Im not an attention seeker, way to negative. I try not to invite negative in.Not saying that it doesnt happen. I've learned to show negative the way out. i dont feel that being a lesbian woman makes me a prize. im just me.
.

[Nat]

There is so much I could say here, but it's late and I've already started over like 5 times. So here's an unorganized smattering:

Straight women can be fun as long as you don't fall in love with them and as long as they don't fall in love with you. At least, I've found them fun.

My partner has a long history of falling for straight women. She likes feminine women. Most of them have been straight. I'm the first femme she's been with. Heaven forbid we ever break up, but if we did, I'm pretty sure she'd keep dating femmes rather than going back to straight girls. I think it's pretty heart-wrenching to spend your life falling for women who will always be more interested in another gender than your own.

On a totally different note - I have known some butches who tend to measure/validate their masculinity by defining their partners as "straight" whether or not they actually are. As though straight women being interested in them gives them some sort of cachet. When I first came out, I dated a butch (briefly) who would have preferred to define me as straight in order to serve her own ego. It's hard to explain, but I've run into that attitude plenty.

[*Anya*]

Interesting question! I remember when I was in HS, I saw this short, very compact, masculine person I a letter jacket. She had a gaggle of girls around her. I Rember feeling very funny inside-I felt kind of anxious but didn't know why (I was 16). I asked who she was and my friend said, "oh that's Phil". I was fascinated by her. Still remember the moment I laid eyes on her having had no idea who or what she was. My journey to the femme I am today took me through my "straight" phase, my bi phase to the point where I could say honestly to myself, you were fascinated by Phil because you were always a lesbian attracted to butch women-coming out to myself just took a long time! That pull that I feel towards butch women I still can't explain: it just is! I personally think it is the ying and yang of it all, butches turn me on.

[dixie]

Originally Posted by Martina

She thinks we are ugly and gross (we flaunt our sexuality), and even if we "can't help it," we are to be avoided because . . . well yuck.

I've always despised the phrase "flaunting our sexuality". I hear it a lot from folks. The joys of heterosexism I guess. They don't seem to realize that their sexuality is "flaunted" in every hand-holding couple, public and on-screen kisses, marriage, etc etc, even simple advertisements for restaurants showing straight couples having a romantic dinner. It's all flaunting, so to speak. Yet since they are of the favored sexuality, the "norm", it doesn't apply to them whether they are even aware of it or not.


I do agree with some of the things I've read in here, in regards to how we are categorized and measured/compared, according to our looks. As a femme, I do have that "pass" into the straight world. If I identify myself to others, depending on the setting, I do get that super annoying "you don't look queer" response. When I was younger and just getting into the local bar scene, I was usually mistaken as the "token straight girl" hanging out with the lesbians and drag queens. (Luckily, I've been around long enough now that they all know me for who I am lol) I think little things like this are a part of what makes me such a loud and proud individual regarding my queer identity.


I have also known a few butches who seemed to gravitate only towards straight women. Like Nat said, it would definitely seem to up the chances of heartbreak by pursuing these relationships or interests. I'm not quite sure what the fascination or attraction would be going into it, knowing that in most cases the outcome would be less than favorable. To each their own, though. We all have different preferences for attraction. Just look at the many attractions and dynamics within this community alone.

[chefhottie25]

Originally Posted by June

Hi, Merlin -- Welcome to the Planet!

I maintain that if a straight woman gets with a Queer ID'd person, they aren't straight anymore. There has to be mutual desire for that to even happen.

i have had a few encounters with "straight" women...but i wouldn't say that their experience with me made them no longer straight. i believe that orientation is defined by what gender you want to have as a partner. you know...those we choose to have actual relationships with. some people just like to experiment with sex...and when they do it doesn't mean that it changes how they identify.

[AtLast]

I find discussions about "straight" women to be more often code for beauty, usually some dominant cultural interpretation of what beauty is. And it always seems like in these discussions butch ends up as male. Also, the whole affiliational paradigm is set in motion- we (as in a general we) are only worth what we can be affiliated with not who we are as individuals. And straight is at the top of the spectrum as being the most attractive or beautiful. When we all know, femmes are the most attractive in every way! Mainly, femme is just so much more than a physical state to me. There is a whole different carriage and psyche by femmes as far as I'm concerned. A very unique state of being.

Makes me nuts.

I ended up with a "straight" married woman for 21 years. She was separated from her husband at the time we met. We did fall in love and shared a healthy relationship together. As a lesbian couple. I did have fears that I was an "experiment" and had to deal with that and just took the risk. I have to admit that for the first 10 years of our relationship there were difficulties with straight men hitting on her frequently. We also did not live in a totally queer world. In fact, we were fairly closeted during that time period (we were both quite young when we met and coupled). Although, as we grew as people, she really found more of herself as on the butch spectrum in many ways (obviously, I did as well). One of the reasons we broke up. But, in most cases of friends that dated and fell for "straight" women, the story did not end well.

I guess I have to look at this in terms of individuals. I just can't put all straight women (or men for that matter) in one box. If I do that, I am doing what the rest of society does to me.

Something else that is bothering me are the continued references to butches in the masculine in terms of things like ego. Actually, ego bothers me in and of itself. Femmes appear to have some of it going on themselves I have experienced with butches. I don't view myself in terms of any kind of masculine ego construct. I know that some butches identify as male, but not all.

On the other hand, mention of the kind of degradation that some femmes have felt around this, I am saddened by the phenomena that are being discussed as it feels so negative toward the butch-femme dynamic as well as to the many types of queer relationships we have throughout our entire dynamic.

[Darth Denkay]

Originally Posted by Merlin

What is the fascination ?

Seems as though a lot of good thoughts have been shared, although this thread had a bit of a rough start. One thing that struck me is that the initial post was very short, played off the thread title, and gave no context. I think that much of the roughness might have been avoided if the question had been fleshed out a bit more up front. This is not at all intended as a criticism of Merlin. We struggle with the intricacies of online communication frequently, and I think lack of context doesn't help.

[ruffryder]

I was with a straight woman for 3 years. I ID as transgender though and she saw me as a guy. Our relationship was that of girl/guy.

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by Merlin

Is it easier for them to go for a butch,because visually they can maybe have the best of both worlds ?

Male looks,female anatomy ?

Not the best of two worlds - a whole other galaxy.

[Chazz]

Originally Posted by Nat

There is so much I could say here, but it's late and I've already started over like 5 times. So here's an unorganized smattering:

Straight women can be fun as long as you don't fall in love with them and as long as they don't fall in love with you. At least, I've found them fun.

My partner has a long history of falling for straight women. She likes feminine women. Most of them have been straight. I'm the first femme she's been with. Heaven forbid we ever break up, but if we did, I'm pretty sure she'd keep dating femmes rather than going back to straight girls. I think it's pretty heart-wrenching to spend your life falling for women who will always be more interested in another gender than your own.

On a totally different note - I have known some butches who tend to measure/validate their masculinity by defining their partners as "straight" whether or not they actually are. As though straight women being interested in them gives them some sort of cachet. When I first came out, I dated a butch (briefly) who would have preferred to define me as straight in order to serve her own ego. It's hard to explain, but I've run into that attitude plenty.

Some people just can't move beyond a dominant culture, gender paradigm.

Butches do it to other butches, too.

[Cole610]

I went to dinner with a "straight" woman from work last night.
After dinner we ended up at the river watching the big old blue moon rise.
I kissed her, she kissed me back. hehe.

[Tuff Stuff]

FEMMES,FEMMES,FEMMES

They make my heart go BOOM! BOOM! BOOM!

[TruTexan]

Originally Posted by Tuff Stuff

FEMMES,FEMMES,FEMMES

They make my heart go BOOM! BOOM! BOOM!

AMEN BROTHER, AMEN !

[Tuff Stuff]

I don't know.I guess some straight women are naturally drawn to anyone that looks and acts masculine...maybe being with me they did have the best of both worlds.With my current gf,i'd say the same could ring true...I was attracted to her femininity,even though she is not a femme...she's definitely a lesbian,though.

How come this statement makes me sad?...*shrugs*