Casey Anthony - guilty, or not?

[Mr. Moon]

Originally Posted by NJFemmie

Yup, that's kinda how a lot of people feel .... like we've been given a huge fuck you.

I think it's pretty appropriate considering how the media has hounded and exploited this whole situation.

[girl_dee]

These tragedies are coming out of the woodwork..

This one today:


<snip>

MONTREAL - Some Quebecers called for the death penalty as anger raged at a former doctor who was found not criminally responsible for killing his two young children.

Guy Turcotte, 39, admitted to stabbing five-year-old Olivier and three-year-old Anne Sophie 46 times in his rented home in Piedmont, north of Montreal, on February 20, 2009.

The 11 jurors accepted the defence's argument that Turcotte suffered from depression, anxiety and was suicidal after he found out his estranged wife was having an affair with a friend.

He had sent an e-mail to his ex-wife on the day of the killings that read "you want war, you'll have it."

The court also heard that little Olivier tried in vain to talk his father out of killing him, crying "no papa," before Turcotte plunged the knife into his stomach. The trial judge ruled that the jury was not allowed to hear that Turcotte refused to pay for his children's funerals.

Law enforcement officials and ordinary citizens blasted Tuesday's verdict, saying it sends the wrong message to fathers going through messy divorces.


<snip>


If this was not a case of *I'll get even with the ex* I don't know what was!
I am sure the mother is to blame here too. grrrrrr

What law could have protected these kids??

[cinderella]

Heart, that is an excellent idea - you should start a thread dedicated to "deeper issues". But, as far as your comment of "can we move beyond this case..." I started this thread specifically for the discussion of 'this case' - to get opinions on whether Casey Anthony was guilty or not, and it still remains the focus of the thread.

That said, I have read your comments with great interest. They are enlightening, and give much food for thought. I welcome your input and any further comments you wish to share with us. But I respectfully request that you not try to change the intended purpose of this thread. Thank you.

Originally Posted by Heart

Here we go:

http://news.yahoo.com/brothers-3-4-f...002109465.html

These children went missing, mother had police contact, told them what she knew, and the children were discovered -- murdered, apparently by her abusive boyfriend, who had a long history of violence. He's been arrested.
While this mother could not be charged under Caylee's Law, as she DID contact authorities, how many will blame her anyway -- for being involved with an abuser/criminal?

In the 1980s Hedda Nussbaum's adopted daugher was killed by her abusive husband Joel Steinburg. They were both arrested, he for murder, she for neglect. She turned state's evidence and was granted immunity. There was a huge national outcry against her even though he had permanantly re-arranged her face, (I mean this literally -- she looked nothing like she did before she met him), tortured and terrified her and the child for years. He was convicted of manslaughter and receivedof 8-25. She had to go into hiding because of the public's rage against her for "allowing" it to happen.

My point? One of our favorite past-times in this country is blaming mothers.
I'll lay bets that most of you can name five killer mothers off the top of your heads. Now try and name five killer fathers. (Father's are ten times more likely to be responsible for the death of a child.)

In another case in NH, a mother begged and pleaded with authorities to find her children who did not return on time from court-ordered visitation. The police did nothing, sending the mother to family court which took days. In the meantime, the kids were killed by her ex. Caylee's Law is intended to punish bad parents (especially bad mothers), but what about systems such as police, child welfare, courts, that neglect the needs of families, the fears of violence survivors, enact racist, sexist, anti-immigrant, and homophobic biases, and hold mothers and fathers to vastly different standards?

Seriously. Can we move beyond this case and get to some of the deeper issues?*

Heart

*I don't mean anyone here personally, I just mean the discourse in general.

[cinderella]

...and I'm upset at myself for doing that - there's things to be done...however, I can't tear myself away. The last time I did that, it was decided that Casey would be out in 6 days - how it got to that point, I don't know - I missed that part.

In any case, things keep evolving...now the discussion has turned to where will she go? Can she live safely in society? Is her safety at stake? All I know is right or wrong, sensible or not, there are alot of angry people out there, and it wouldn't surprise me if some unbalanced person does her harm. Where do you suppose she could live, and how, in this country? Some have suggested plastic surgery, a name change, and putting great distance between herself and Florida. But seriously, where in the US could she possibly go - the world, for that matter.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on this one - speculations, sensible or not, are welcome. I'm just curious what everyone thinks about this.

[scootebaby]

To Mr Moon...thank you for your post. I did glance over the law that Change.org is trying to pass and i did sign it without first studying it further. like so many others i signed it without doing research..my reason was so much knee jerk as in emotional...however after reading ur post and thinking i realize u r absolutely right! There is no way to make that law work. Thank you for eduvating me a little today.

To Cinderella,

i do believe she will have a hard time for awhile...and i do agree her safety is gonna be an issue bc there are people out there who do stupid things. however i think that just like everything else it will die down eventually,and she will be able to resume a somewhat normal life---without having to do anything major to herself. There will always be someone out there that obsesses over her and what she did,but once time has passed or some other horrific crime fills our airways and print she will fall off the radar--unless she does something criminal!

Right now emotions are raw and there are those looking for their 15 sec of fame...in time tho

[princessbelle]

Originally Posted by cinderella

...and I'm upset at myself for doing that - there's things to be done...however, I can't tear myself away. The last time I did that, it was decided that Casey would be out in 6 days - how it got to that point, I don't know - I missed that part.

In any case, things keep evolving...now the discussion has turned to where will she go? Can she live safely in society? Is her safety at stake? All I know is right or wrong, sensible or not, there are alot of angry people out there, and it wouldn't surprise me if some unbalanced person does her harm. Where do you suppose she could live, and how, in this country? Some have suggested plastic surgery, a name change, and putting great distance between herself and Florida. But seriously, where in the US could she possibly go - the world, for that matter.

I'd love to hear your thoughts on this one - speculations, sensible or not, are welcome. I'm just curious what everyone thinks about this.

I have stopped watching. I've been busy today, but now i'm just getting updates here and on the regular news. It appears though that she may not be safe, and that is worrisome to me. I do think she did this horrible act. I do not however, wish any maleficence to fall upon her due to an irate member of society.

I hope she just disappears out of the sight of the world for now. Karma is evident, and something i believe in, to a fault probably. For me, and I hope for others, making some type of positive from a negative is what I will try to do.

[Jess]

Originally Posted by Heart

Whenever I hear/read about making parents more responsible/accountable, I consider how we live in one of the most family UNfriendly countries in the world, (so-called "family values," notwithstanding). With no universal child-care, afterschool or health care, no meaningful paid maternity/paternity leave, ever-shrinking access to free family planning and mental health care, not to mention lack of affordable housing and livable wages in many sectors, it's a wonder most parents do as well as they do.

This has nothing to do with this awful case, per se, but if we had these things in place, as many other devloped countries do, it would be a heck of a lot easier to weed out the truly pathological parent from the over-stressed, under-resourced parent.

But these issues are complex, and require long-term solutions. It's easier to rant about a head-line grabbing case, whipped into a frenzy by the Nancy Graces of the tabloid media, and push through rightous and emotional legislation that may hurt innocent parents and their children.*

Heart

*not personal to anyone here, just my viewpoint.

I totally agree that these issues are complicated and need to be addressed thoroughly when creating laws to protect children/ families.

The change.org petition was the immediate reaction of a concerned, well meaning citizen, who "acted" and if nothing else, will bring attention from law makers to begin to research the proper actions to take regarding missing, exploited and abused children. It is merely a stepping stone and without proper legalese would never become an actual law.

While it may not be THE answer legally, it is a beginning and is bringing about discourse such as this. For that, I am grateful. I firmly believe that the more concerned citizens become aware and involved in the process, the more comprehensive our laws can become. It will be voices exactly like yours Heart, whom have the first hand knowledge of the inner workings of our social systems that will be and are some of the most needed.

Thank you for what you do for families. I can only imagine the frustration on the part of people who are in the trenches trying to sincerely get "actual" support where it is truly needed and that is usually way before this type of incident ever happens.

[T D]

I know that here in California, the woman who was dating Scott Peterson, Amber Frey, when he allegedly killed his wife (Laci) and unborn child, has moved to another state and changed her name. It can be done, but it takes time for people to forget. Sometimes a LOT of time.

As for whether or not Casey Anthony is guilty? I don't think anyone has the answer to that question, except Casey Anthony.

Just my thoughts on these two questions.

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by Heart

Whenever I hear/read about making parents more responsible/accountable, I consider how we live in one of the most family UNfriendly countries in the world, (so-called "family values," notwithstanding). With no universal child-care, afterschool or health care, no meaningful paid maternity/paternity leave, ever-shrinking access to free family planning and mental health care, not to mention lack of affordable housing and livable wages in many sectors, it's a wonder most parents do as well as they do.

This has nothing to do with this awful case, per se, but if we had these things in place, as many other devloped countries do, it would be a heck of a lot easier to weed out the truly pathological parent from the over-stressed, under-resourced parent.

But these issues are complex, and require long-term solutions. It's easier to rant about a head-line grabbing case, whipped into a frenzy by the Nancy Graces of the tabloid media, and push through rightous and emotional legislation that may hurt innocent parents and their children.*

Heart

*not personal to anyone here, just my viewpoint.

As a single parent who has experienced the family UNfriendliness up close and personal, I could not agree with you more. Especially the importance of "weed(ing) out the truly pathological parent from the over-stressed, under-resourced parent." There is a vast difference between those two creatures, and we should be wary of enacting any law that would trap the latter into the net with the former. But then, I find it hard to believe that even the most stressed out parent wouldn't report their child missing within a few hours, let alone 24 (or whatever the requirement) and that alone would serve as a weeding out process (though I'm not saying that's sufficient).

Like you, I am wary of knee jerk legislation, and would need to very carefully read all the fine print before I lend my signature.

[cinderella]

I too had a 'knee-jerk' reaction to this suggestion, but thanks to Heart's post, I don't think I will subscribe.

General 'Blanket Laws', as Heart put it, can seem to be a great thing, but ultimately can be dangerous and have serious repurcusions. I am a passionate Latin woman who tends to jump at conclusions, and want to 'get on the bandwagon' whenever something like Caylee's Law is suggested. But, thankfully, time and age has taught me a valuable lesson - be wary of 'good things'...they may not be so 'good' after all is said and done. In retrospect, I can see how this law can be a good idea gone bad...

Again, thanks for opening up my eyes, and conscienceness, Heart.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by cinderella

I too had a 'knee-jerk' reaction to this suggestion, but thanks to Heart's post, I don't think I will subscribe.

General 'Blanket Laws', as Heart put it, can seem to be a great thing, but ultimately can be dangerous and have serious repurcusions. I am a passionate Latin woman who tends to jump at conclusions, and want to 'get on the bandwagon' whenever something like Caylee's Law is suggested. But, thankfully, time and age has taught me a valuable lesson - be wary of 'good things'...they may not be so 'good' after all is said and done. In retrospect, I can see how this law can be a good idea gone bad...

Again, thanks for opening up my eyes, and conscienceness, Heart.

I still think there is a need for such a law....it simply needs to be thought out and written carefully.

I don't think any of us need fear that a proposal is going to be lifted straight from Facebook or change.org and passed as law. It will be discussed, changed, and altered many times before anything is done.

I think petitions of this sort are valuable in that they tell our legislators that we see a gap in the law...and put them on course to addressing it.

[jules5041]

I totally respect everyone's opinion and am glad to have read them. I have kept up with this story since the very beginning.

I just happen to think she's guilty.

That's my two cents.

[NJFemmie]

It is a tangible proof of public opinion - that a law needs to be created. Once it is brought to legislative parties, they will fine tooth comb it and refine the legalities.

I've sifted through several of them this morning - and some I found to be quite harsh. One wanted to declare it first degree murder with a 25 year sentence. I think that's a bit much.

I am sure there will be considerations in those cases of extenuating circumstances. If someone can't report their child missing because they are being abused or held hostage, etc ... I sincerely doubt a court will throw her in jail on a felony charge if it proven she was forced, etc. They will amend it to make it as "right" as possible.

[NJFemmie]

Just two days after a Florida jury found Casey Anthony not guilty of murdering her 2-year old daughter Caylee, four states are drafting legislation being referred to as "Caylee's Law," which would tighten requirements on missing persons reports.



Lawmakers in Florida, Oklahoma, New York and West Virginia have all announced that they will propose versions of the law. This comes at the same time that an online petition for a "Caylee's Law" went viral on Change.org, which has collected over 300,000 signatures.
Oklahoma Rep. Paul Wesselhoft said that the petition, created by Michelle Crowder of Durant, Okla., caught his eye and the eyes of his constituents.
"Yesterday, I got a lot of emails from my constituents who are very outraged by the trial and the verdict," Wesselhoft told ABCNews.com. "We're all outraged that Caylee did not receive justice. There's no question about that."



Wesselhoft, a Republican, plans to propose a law at the start of Oklahoma's legislative session in 2012 that would make it a felony for a parent of guardian not to notify authorities within 24 hours of a child's death. He also plans to propose a requirement for parents to notify runaways under the age of 12 in a timely manner, although he admits having a time table for that is "more difficult because you don't know when the clock starts," he said.



More here: http://abcnews.go.com/US/casey-antho...ry?id=14020260

[girl_dee]

Maybe it's me but isn't even 24 hours kinda long for a missing 2 year old?

[Jess]

Originally Posted by NJFemmie

Just two days after a Florida jury found Casey Anthony not guilty of murdering her 2-year old daughter Caylee, four states are drafting legislation being referred to as "Caylee's Law," which would tighten requirements on missing persons reports.



Lawmakers in Florida, Oklahoma, New York and West Virginia have all announced that they will propose versions of the law. This comes at the same time that an online petition for a "Caylee's Law" went viral on Change.org, which has collected over 300,000 signatures.
Oklahoma Rep. Paul Wesselhoft said that the petition, created by Michelle Crowder of Durant, Okla., caught his eye and the eyes of his constituents.
"Yesterday, I got a lot of emails from my constituents who are very outraged by the trial and the verdict," Wesselhoft told ABCNews.com. "We're all outraged that Caylee did not receive justice. There's no question about that."



Wesselhoft, a Republican, plans to propose a law at the start of Oklahoma's legislative session in 2012 that would make it a felony for a parent of guardian not to notify authorities within 24 hours of a child's death. He also plans to propose a requirement for parents to notify runaways under the age of 12 in a timely manner, although he admits having a time table for that is "more difficult because you don't know when the clock starts," he said.



More here: http://abcnews.go.com/US/casey-antho...ry?id=14020260

and this is precisely the time that we ( generally/ collectively) need to contact our lawmakers/ representatives with the knowledge of the abused spouse type of scenario that Heart mentioned above.

We ( the people) have their attention, now it is up to us to make them aware of the potential dangers of the previously mentioned pitfalls of a "blanket law".

Conversations like the very one going on here, is what will help our representatives help our families. I do not see the action of the change.org petition initiator as negative or dangerous. I see it as an excellent opportunity for follow up from an informed public.

[Andrew, Jr.]

I have been glued to the TV watching this case. One of the protestors was carrying a sign that read "Somewhere a village is missing 12 idiots." Then there was a young guy on the other side of the red tape on the opposite side of the protestors who was carrying a sign "Marry Me Casey!". It boggles one's mind.

I do think that Casey isn't safe living in Florida. She does need to move, change her name, have plastic surgery, and move on with her life. However, I do think we will hear her commiting another crime for some reason or another. It is another OJ Simpson but with Casey.

I would like to know that since Casey is a convicted felon for the check fraud issues, does she have to pay the $4,000 when she is released from jail next week? And is there a time table for her to pay back the State of FL for the various searches for Caylee, police support and so on?

The jurors distrust of George Anthony really surprised me. I think most of those women jurors were single mothers who just disliked men in my opinion.

[scootebaby]

Andrew,i mean no disrespect,but ur statement of "single women who dislike men" is way off base and out of line. Altho it was a 7/5 split(if i recall correctly) i know of at least 2 female jurors were married. As for George....he made himself look untrusting..the way he went around answering instead of directly,or getting into a pissing match with Baez


The jury being blamed is ludicrous...they admitted they wanted to convicted,but the evidence THEY needed wasnt there. It took a lot of strength for them not to vote out of emotion--i cant imagine how hard that is.

As for pymt Casey is responsible for the $4000 court cost (which a pymt plan will be set up) as for what if any is her part in the search for Cayleee wont be determined until the hearing--which im unsure of when that happens!

[girl_dee]

Originally Posted by Andrew, Jr.

pport and so on?

The jurors distrust of George Anthony really surprised me. I think most of those women jurors were single mothers who just disliked men in my opinion.

Huh? ...........

[tantalizingfemme]

Originally Posted by Andrew, Jr.

I think most of those women jurors were single mothers who just disliked men in my opinion.

Can you explain how single mothers = women who dislike men? I find this really offensive as a single mother.