Female Bodies Across Gender Identities

[CherylNYC]

Originally Posted by Amelia

I just want to be specific here so I am not misunderstood.

I am not afraid of being assaulted in a bathroom or dressing room by men. I have been sexually assaulted by both male and female genders. I do not think all males are a danger to me, so I hope no one here is thinking that was my point.

I was speaking generally about everyone's privacy and the way society views protecting that privacy by separating genders and not by sexuality. I wasn't speaking about my own privacy as much as I was speaking about addressing the gender separation being FLAWED. .

Can someone please explain why gender separation is flawed? I find it imperative to my safety and comfort to use public fitting rooms and women's bathrooms with multiple stalls without the risk that a man may intrude. I require women's space for the same reasons I have always required it. Those reasons include privacy, but that's only one part of the equation. Do I feel unsafe in closed quarters when men are present? You bet I do. Am I a frail, delicate person who lives in fear? Ha! You would have to have met me to know why that's such an outrageously funny thought.

I live and work in the real world. I work with huge men, often well over 6' tall and very well fed, who congratulate themselves for not having assaulted the women in their lives, ("Hey, I'm a good guy. I never even hit her!"). These men sometimes need to be told that it's not OK to use racial slurs. One fairly large man was recently thrown off the job for assaulting a cleaning woman in the bathroom. Many of us agreed that he would have faced NO REPERCUSSIONS had that happened even as recently as a decade ago. Are these the people that I'm supposed to feel comfortable with in a room where they are exposing their penises and my pants are down? When I hear people in my community calling for erasure of gendered bathrooms I want to ask them whether they're crazy or just naive. My friends who work in academia can theorize about gender from the luxury of their libraries. I don't have that option.

I've heard about and seen men direct their most potent sexual aggression against masculine women. Butches are perceived as gender transgressors and have been the object of violence and sexual violence as a result. I have no trouble imagining some of my co-workers feeling a need to show a trangressively masculine woman that she's still a woman after all, and that he can still violate her. This is one important way in which our female bodies, no matter whether those bodies belong to very feminine or very masculine people, put us at similar risk. I'm mystified about why a masculine, female bodied person would invite the risk of men's sexual aggression by sharing really vulnerable space, such as bathrooms, with them. Am I the only person here who has to deal with male sexual aggression, or is it just so common that no one else feels the need to mention it?

Bathrooms and fitting rooms are traditional common, recognised women's spaces, but there are some other really important venues. For instance, what about girls' and women's sports? If you attempt to erase gender separation from sports you will only erase women from sports. Period. Perhaps this won't be as obvious to anyone who is too young to have played girl's sports, or tried to, in the U.S. before Title 9. Take my word for it. It's better now. Unless a person is born intersexed, a female body no matter how masculine, will be unlikely to be competitive with a male body in most competitive sports. There will always be exceptions. I was competitive with boys when I ran on their track teams before Title 9, but that was very rare. This is another place where we, butch and femme, are the same. Sports are played with bodies. Female bodies are different than male bodies. Like it or not, that's due to naturally occurring physical size and hormones.

So, at the risk of derailing this fine thread, why is gender separation flawed?

[Jess]

Thanks Cheryl for a great point of view. I guess when I was first reading the bathroom/ changing room issue, I was thinking more about the discomfort I feel ( and impose upon) other women in these spaces and not necessarily the discomfort and risk involved in sharing such a private space with men.

I appreciate the chance to remember that yes, I DO feel threatened in vulnerable spaces with men.

There is no easy answer or quick fix. I will just continue the Kegel exercises and try to keep holding it..LOL!

Good to see you posting here!

[BullDog]

Thank you Cheryl and Jess. I feel the same way Jess does. I am usually thinking about comfort level more than danger level, but if I think about it more I do need to be careful. I don't use Mens bathrooms, but I will use a Mens changing room if it's not too crowded and I am feeling ok about it. Otherwise I carry my clothes to the Womens dept.

Anyone can be a good person. Anyone can physically or sexually assault someone. However, the fact of the matter is a majority of these types of crimes are committed by men against women. So it would be naive and dangerous to just all of sudden do away with all gendered public spaces, in my opinion. We need to work on the underlying issues and what is causing people to be potentially unsafe in the first place. I do like unisex for bathrooms that are one stall. That's only feasible for small public spaces.

I also do try and be aware that if someone does mistake me for male (usually only very temporary) that I do what I can to make them feel at ease. If a woman thinks a male is a woman's space the gut reaction might be fear. People definitely have narrow definitions of what a woman or female looks like or is, and it can be hurtful and uncomfortable to us to feel we can't even pee out in public, but women do need to be cautious around males they don't know. If they don't know you and don't know you are a woman/female they are likely to be wary. They have good reason to be.

[Jett]

I totally agree with your line of thinking Cheryl... I don't think gender separation is flawed, I think it's crucial some gender spaces remain separate. The separating by sexuality doesn't fly with me because though sure same sex "abuse" does happen... when's the last time anyone's heard of a lesbian rapist terrorizing the women of a city? So I'll be honest whenever I hear that retort that "it's not just the men who are violent" I feel like flipping the bird and walking because that's really splitting hairs it's finest and feels dismissive to the plight of violence against women by men, like blowing off something that needs more awareness not downplay.

That said, I've used the mens john, and mens changing room as I said I don't think about that last one as it's the dept. I'm shopping in. I need to start thinking though, masculine or not the implications for a female in that space are be the same. I think similar to Bull and Jess I've been more thinking comfort level, because when I do use the womens room(s) I do feel like I may startle or make someone uncomfortable though it's usually only for a moment. But bottom line it certainly doesn't make me personally uncomfortable for my own sake to be in or use female only spaces but it does in mens.

And as it's been said I don't feel "afraid", but I do feel very "aware" when I'm in men's spaces or men are in certain spaces, and I don't think you have to be afraid to be smart about controlling those cross interactions whenever possible. I don't think I can justify using the mens anything room at this point, for what end? That I don't make someone do a double take at me and then the sign on the door? They almost always have the "aha" moment anyway and we all survive the 10 second ordeal.

Thanks for making me re-think...
Metro

[BullDog]

Yes Cheryl, Jess and Metro's posts are definitely making me think about things more. I do think butches are so used to tuning out some of the reactions from people around us (stares, comments etc) that we sometimes may overlook our own safety. That isn't always the case, but I know I can be pretty oblivious at times. I have noticed when I am with femme(s) or straight women that they seem to be more hyper aware of safety issues and the environment around them than I am. I do think as butches we tend to tune some things out sometimes. Then again, other butches might have been subjected to a lot more dangerous situations than I have and be a lot more on guard and aware.

I think Metro also makes a good point that if a butch's presence is only likely to cause maybe a 10 second double take, it shouldn't cause us to feel like we can't be in a woman's space, particularly if we are looking out for our own safety as we as comfort zone.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Yes Cheryl, Jess and Metro's posts are definitely making me think about things more. I do think butches are so used to tuning out some of the reactions from people around us (stares, comments etc) that we sometimes may overlook our own safety. That isn't always the case, but I know I can be pretty oblivious at times. I have noticed when I am with femme(s) or straight women that they seem to be more hyper aware of safety issues and the environment around them than I am. I do think as butches we tend to tune some things out sometimes. Then again, other butches might have been subjected to a lot more dangerous situations than I have and be a lot more on guard and aware.

I think Metro also makes a good point that if a butch's presence is only likely to cause maybe a 10 second double take, it shouldn't cause us to feel like we can't be in a woman's space, particularly if we are looking out for our own safety as we as comfort zone.

All good points, Bulldog (and Met). Thanks for this.

[Darth Denkay]

I feel infinitely safer in the men's room instead of the women's room. I can't go in a women's room without, at the least, stares and angry looks. More times than not hateful things are said. Now, all of this I could handle. But I've been verbally and physically threatened, pulled out twice by security. The women's room does not feel safe to me.

I have never - and I do mean never - had even a sliver of trouble using the men's room. It seems as though men go in the restroom, do their thing, don't talk or look at anyone, and leave. Women go in and tend to look at others there. Because of the odd phenomenon of women going to the restroom in herds there are often folks hanging around inside waiting for their friends, carrying on conversations. Also, women spend time in there primping and such. It seems as though it's pretty much a guarantee that in the women's room someone will look at me and I will be hassled to some degree while in the men's room no one pays a bit of attention. For me, the men's restroom feels safer than the women's restroom.

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

I've heard about and seen men direct their most potent sexual aggression against masculine women. Butches are perceived as gender transgressors and have been the object of violence and sexual violence as a result. I have no trouble imagining some of my co-workers feeling a need to show a trangressively masculine woman that she's still a woman after all, and that he can still violate her. This is one important way in which our female bodies, no matter whether those bodies belong to very feminine or very masculine people, put us at similar risk. I'm mystified about why a masculine, female bodied person would invite the risk of men's sexual aggression by sharing really vulnerable space, such as bathrooms, with them. Am I the only person here who has to deal with male sexual aggression, or is it just so common that no one else feels the need to mention it?

[Stoney]

I see alot of this is about changing room restroom stuff but it all got me thinking ..so I hope Im not too far off subject.

for a really long time I honestly felt almost genderless, I mean I weighed over 400 lbs not many people felt comfortable around me
and I was either completely ignored or whispered about... always the same ( is that a man or a woman..??) I think they were wishing I'd choose a bathroom or changing room just to satisfy their curiosity.
Now that I have lost weight it is a lot different, men are either completely rude, and on the defense or they want me to meet their wife....it is kinda creepy.
I forget sometimes that I look different to people now, and I am no longer "invisible"
"visible" Sometimes feels like "vulnerable" and I dont really like that , so I have to sometimes cut back on the friendly smiles and pointless conversations with men who now readily recognize with a double take I am female.

So yeah ,
I have had some issues. I do Identify as female, always have but no body really seemed to notice that much till I lost all this weight.

[BullDog]

Stoney, thank you for your post. No you are not off topic at all. All subjects on being female bodied (present or past) and how we relate to or experience them from all genders is welcomed.

[Soon]

Want to Participate in Updating “Our Bodies, Ourselves”?

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

Want to Participate in Updating “Our Bodies, Ourselves”?

HowSoonIsNow, thank you so much for posting this. Our Bodies Ourselves has been such an important book and project for so many women. The book first came out in 1973 I believe.

They appear to trying to be as inclusive as possible:

"We are seeking the experience and wisdom of heterosexual, lesbian, bisexual and queer women. Perspectives from single women are encouraged, and you may define relationship as it applies to you, from monogamy to multiple partners. We are committed to including women of color, women with disabilities, trans women and women of many ages and backgrounds."

I can't wait for the new edition to come out.

[Dragonfly]

I wanted to respond to the really great points made about placing oneself in a dangerous situation for the sake of someone else's comfort. I dont think anyone should sacrifice their safety or feeling safe to make someone else feel comfortable. We shouldn't as a community promote that sort of mentality because we are not what is "wrong"... the discrimination is wrong.

I had tried to shorten my post and left out a few details about when I choose to use a men's restroom. For one, I never ever sit in any restroom or touch anything so if its dirty I dont really care. If a lady were to look under the door and see my feet she may think it is proof I am a man in there. Plus, I wash real well afterwards lol.

Also the men's dressing room is often a one stall and the womens is often multi stalled where I tend to shop.

Because of the issues I have struggled with, the fact that I am ever alone and vulnerable is a huge triumph for me. I wear men's clothes because they are concealing certain clothing layers that reduce the chances of my being raped. I do not need to remind myself I never stop thinking about how that I am never going to be 100% safe from an assault for being and looking like I do. So More often than not I carry a conceled weapon that would actually cause me more trouble should I too get dragged from the ladies room by security.

With the PTSD that I struggled with for 2 decades now I have evolved alongside very loyal men, and am rarely alone when going into those restrooms. I am usually with Foo or another friend when I am out and about. I am firends with a 90/10 ratio of gendered bio males over Queer or hetero bio females. Yeah Men are bigger than me, some of my girlfriends were bigger than me too. Last year I dated a line backer chick who could toss me over her shoulder and throw me around. lol. Safety in numbers feels safer to me but to some people safe is different things. I need to be safe from persecution and searches because I revolve my life around living with and recovering the best I can. So sometimes I personally choose the less likely risk of another attack, especially in a public restroom when I am usually accompanied everywhere I go anyway, over the daily rubbing in my face how disgusting I am to society to dress so masculine yet be so obviously female bodied. I could only pass for male back in the 80's when my skater friends had long hair and flannels too... And then only from a distance,



My daughter believes society will catch up as soon as the asshats die off. Then all that is left is a majority rule of acceptance generations. I hope so too...

[Soon]

Originally Posted by HowSoonIsNow

Want to Participate in Updating “Our Bodies, Ourselves”?

Quoting myself b/c AtLast was so kind to rep me about it! Thank you!

[apretty]

do you think that your weight and identity are related, do you think that your body size and gender are connected? just wondering--you must go through/or have gone through body-size dysmorphia (as a result of your large weight loss) and some butches i have known also have a degree of body dysmorphia--and i was wondering if, at all do you think that your size (then or now) and gender are interconnected?

Originally Posted by Stoney

I see alot of this is about changing room restroom stuff but it all got me thinking ..so I hope Im not too far off subject.

for a really long time I honestly felt almost genderless, I mean I weighed over 400 lbs not many people felt comfortable around me
and I was either completely ignored or whispered about... always the same ( is that a man or a woman..??) I think they were wishing I'd choose a bathroom or changing room just to satisfy their curiosity.
Now that I have lost weight it is a lot different, men are either completely rude, and on the defense or they want me to meet their wife....it is kinda creepy.
I forget sometimes that I look different to people now, and I am no longer "invisible"
"visible" Sometimes feels like "vulnerable" and I dont really like that , so I have to sometimes cut back on the friendly smiles and pointless conversations with men who now readily recognize with a double take I am female.

So yeah ,
I have had some issues. I do Identify as female, always have but no body really seemed to notice that much till I lost all this weight.

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by apretty

do you think that your weight and identity are related, do you think that your body size and gender are connected? just wondering--you must go through/or have gone through body-size dysmorphia (as a result of your large weight loss) and some butches i have known also have a degree of body dysmorphia--and i was wondering if, at all do you think that your size (then or now) and gender are interconnected?

Would you be willing to talk more on the concept of body-size dysmorphia? I am somewhat new attempting to understand the places in myself where my gender, my size, my weight losses and gains may intersect and what it means.

[Soon]

Originally Posted by Greyson

Would you be willing to talk more on the concept of body-size dysmorphia? I am somewhat new attempting to understand the places in myself where my gender, my size, my weight losses and gains may intersect and what it means.

Don't want to lose sight of these important questions/issues either that are related to previous posts.

[AtLast]

I just found this thread and find it extremely interesting and informative about all of us that are a part of this wonderfully diverse community. I have to go back to the beginning and read all the posts... just can't right now (and there is a lot to take in). Thanks, Bully for starting this discussion!

Something funny that has struck me though (just about bathroom/dressing room posts), is that I drive around town in a RV type van that has a bathroom fairly often. My tension over using a public restroom has been cut in half or more! Although, it really doesn't bother me as much as it used to, I will just use my bathroom in stead of dealing with all of the nonsense that we (butches- all of we butches) sometimes do.

[Stoney]

Originally Posted by apretty

do you think that your weight and identity are related, do you think that your body size and gender are connected? just wondering--you must go through/or have gone through body-size dysmorphia (as a result of your large weight loss) and some butches i have known also have a degree of body dysmorphia--and i was wondering if, at all do you think that your size (then or now) and gender are interconnected?

Oh Yes Absolutely apretty.

I think my size had a lot to do with how I identified ....
I used to wonder , in all honesty whether or not It was more of a conscious and deliberate choice to be a lesbian and not necessarily a physiological one. I have been very open with friends in here and on other threads about my past as a young woman and also about issues of sexual abuse.
from the time I as a little girl I had always devised way to protect myself, from going around picking fights, bullying people, putting on a front. I lifted weights, I got big, way too big "for a girl"( per others) in a muscular way.
I realize now this was a way of protecting myself from abusers. When I was 17 I spent 14 months in prison, which btw was actually a safer environment than I had come from. When I got out , I tried like hell to feminize myself but found out I didnt know how to live that way without feeling vunerable. But going around kicking peoples asses puts you in jail. so...

When I was 20 I married a kind and gentle man, and had 3 kids, we were married less than 4 years and divorced. Within months I was pregnant again, and in a relationship with an alcoholic who was abusive to me. I weighed around 190 or so which really wasnt overweight for me because of the weight lifting.
but.....it didnt help me fight back, this Man could easily kick my ass, humilitate me into not fighting back,make me feel small , helpless and weak, all my abuse was brought up often, like" if you werent such a whore, you wouldnt have had all these problems. I remember getting choked and hit in the face cause someone asked me to dance while he was in the bathroom at a bar. I used to have long hair, and I wore make up, I cut my hair and stopped trying to make myself more attractive to men, I gained over 100 lbs. It was around that time that I started remembering and dealing with my past, childhood sexual abuse.
when I got big enough to kick his ass and got tired of being called a dyke, I finally left that relationship, and sought to heal myself. I weighed around 300 had 4 kids and was a full time single mom.
It took a long time , but when the real me began to emerge I was bitter and angry with men in general, I looked deeply into feminism and Herstory, and for the first time faced my feelings about men.... and women.
When I was inside, I had secrets no one ever knew about my relationships with other girls. I honestly could not think of them as lesbian actions , I thought I was just really messed up, a sexual pervert, and never spoke a word about my attraction or what I had done with other girls. In fact for years I felt my life was messed up cause of that deep dark secret.......

When I left that relationship finally, I never again had anything to do with men. I began to facilitate groups for childhood sexual abuse and Disociative Identity Disorder. and help survivors through their pain, within a few years I came out, full blown ''butch'' lesbian.

I have never really thought in my case "Being Butch" is a gender, It is a description more or less about my mannerisms.

I actually gained the rest of my weight ( up to over 450) after a medical mistake long after I had come out gay.

I do think getting bigger was a way of protecting myself, making myself less attractive to men, so yes I feel it had to do with gender in that respect.

Now... I weigh 160. It feels linda like Im in a snow storm in a nylon jacket ( in the literal sense as well as metaphorically)

I am thankful I spent the many years I did on myself healing from the abuse, learning how to stand up for myself and others. I am solid and strong with who I am today, I work out now not to get big, but to become healthy . I still have the mind set of the 400lb womon and it doesnt just go away. I notice the attention of men now where I didnt before and I am trying to not be so mean to them, it doesnt take much for my mouth to overide my ass these days.
I actually might post a thing I wrote a while back on gender and weight ect... It's been A while since I read it but if it pertains I will.

It has been a challenge accepting my body at this size, it is scary sometimes, it is hard to believe people who say i am attractive, girls scare me now a little too, i am careful to not be so suspicious of flirts etc...its still hard for me to believe i am attractive to others physically but....



it feels sooooo great to finally be healthy after so many years of pain and illness.

peace,
Stoney

[Stoney]

I tried to post a picture but I didnt do it right or something... I put it in the galley Ill leave it up for a little bit. my before and afters

[apretty]

Originally Posted by Stoney

Oh Yes Absolutely apretty.

I think my size had a lot to do with how I identified ....
I used to wonder , in all honesty whether or not It was more of a conscious and deliberate choice to be a lesbian and not necessarily a physiological one. I have been very open with friends in here and on other threads about my past as a young woman and also about issues of sexual abuse.
from the time I as a little girl I had always devised way to protect myself, from going around picking fights, bullying people, putting on a front. I lifted weights, I got big, way too big "for a girl"( per others) in a muscular way.
I realize now this was a way of protecting myself from abusers. When I was 17 I spent 14 months in prison, which btw was actually a safer environment than I had come from. When I got out , I tried like hell to feminize myself but found out I didnt know how to live that way without feeling vunerable. But going around kicking peoples asses puts you in jail. so...

When I was 20 I married a kind and gentle man, and had 3 kids, we were married less than 4 years and divorced. Within months I was pregnant again, and in a relationship with an alcoholic who was abusive to me. I weighed around 190 or so which really wasnt overweight for me because of the weight lifting.
but.....it didnt help me fight back, this Man could easily kick my ass, humilitate me into not fighting back,make me feel small , helpless and weak, all my abuse was brought up often, like" if you werent such a whore, you wouldnt have had all these problems. I remember getting choked and hit in the face cause someone asked me to dance while he was in the bathroom at a bar. I used to have long hair, and I wore make up, I cut my hair and stopped trying to make myself more attractive to men, I gained over 100 lbs. It was around that time that I started remembering and dealing with my past, childhood sexual abuse.
when I got big enough to kick his ass and got tired of being called a dyke, I finally left that relationship, and sought to heal myself. I weighed around 300 had 4 kids and was a full time single mom.
It took a long time , but when the real me began to emerge I was bitter and angry with men in general, I looked deeply into feminism and Herstory, and for the first time faced my feelings about men.... and women.
When I was inside, I had secrets no one ever knew about my relationships with other girls. I honestly could not think of them as lesbian actions , I thought I was just really messed up, a sexual pervert, and never spoke a word about my attraction or what I had done with other girls. In fact for years I felt my life was messed up cause of that deep dark secret.......

When I left that relationship finally, I never again had anything to do with men. I began to facilitate groups for childhood sexual abuse and Disociative Identity Disorder. and help survivors through their pain, within a few years I came out, full blown ''butch'' lesbian.

I have never really thought in my case "Being Butch" is a gender, It is a description more or less about my mannerisms.

I actually gained the rest of my weight ( up to over 450) after a medical mistake long after I had come out gay.

I do think getting bigger was a way of protecting myself, making myself less attractive to men, so yes I feel it had to do with gender in that respect.

Now... I weigh 160. It feels linda like Im in a snow storm in a nylon jacket ( in the literal sense as well as metaphorically)

I am thankful I spent the many years I did on myself healing from the abuse, learning how to stand up for myself and others. I am solid and strong with who I am today, I work out now not to get big, but to become healthy . I still have the mind set of the 400lb womon and it doesnt just go away. I notice the attention of men now where I didnt before and I am trying to not be so mean to them, it doesnt take much for my mouth to overide my ass these days.
I actually might post a thing I wrote a while back on gender and weight ect... It's been A while since I read it but if it pertains I will.

It has been a challenge accepting my body at this size, it is scary sometimes, it is hard to believe people who say i am attractive, girls scare me now a little too, i am careful to not be so suspicious of flirts etc...its still hard for me to believe i am attractive to others physically but....



it feels sooooo great to finally be healthy after so many years of pain and illness.

peace,
Stoney

this was super amazingly brave, thank you.

i totally get the conscious and deliberate choice thing--i think it's valid to make that choice, i can *relate* to making the choice to be queer. i am absolutely skeptical of a hetero man's ability to know my *life*, being raised female in this society--and i *need* that understanding to fully love someone and allow them to love the authentic me. i want the most equality that i can achieve in a relationship and i don't believe a hetero man could (temporarily) shrug off his privilege and support but not patronize and love but not power-over me. (i could probably say this better after another cup of coffee)

either way, thank you for your response.

also, have you read, 'fat is a feminist issue' ? i mean i think it's important to consider what it is to be female-bodied and take up space--and *butch* space would seem to be even more threatening to the power-structure.

like i said, more coffee needed--but those are some preliminary thoughts.