Here come the lesbians, here come the leaping lesbians...

[christie]

Originally Posted by tapu

Taking my life in my own hands, I would just like to say:

Hey! Who's up for some lesbian leaping, huh?

Originally Posted by JustJo

I'm not much of a leaper....but I do a mean cannonball in the pool.

Originally Posted by tapu

Here come the cannonballing lesbians? Heck, maybe that's even better, Ducky!

Originally Posted by Yellow band

Ducky sounds to the musculine of center.

Originally Posted by JustJo

Only my ducky side is masculine of center. Well, that and my pushy, project manager, task driven work self too I suppose.

My manicure loving side is female of center. As are my girly gestures and love of strappy sandals.

My mommy side is my emotional center.

The kitchen is the house center (for me).

My politics are left of center.

And I'm right handed.

However...I've never lived in Kansas, despite it being the geographical center.

Perhaps I'm just confused (or maybe I'm just me).

I have been following the conversation regarding BV, female vs. male (feminine vs. masculine) leadership, the feelings of erasure and invalidation of female ID'd butches and non qualified butches (for those who just claim "butch") and I just have to say that it feels really, really negating to have the frivilious comments interjected as the ones I have quoted here.

Its obvious that this is a conversation that isn't easy or not close to folks' hearts. Why is this shit necessary?

It seems very immature and demeaning to me. If I can't add to the conversation at hand, I generally just read. Doesn't mean I am not interested if I don't participate nor does it mean that its not important. Perhaps I am too busy to be able to take the time to engage and stay engaged. Perhaps I need time to reflect on others' posts and get my own in order.

What really silences me is when I am moving right along, reading the conversation and then WHAM! It really distracts and deflects. Is that the purpose?

Would it happen in other forums such as the Femme, Butch or Trans zones? I can't help but believe it would cause quite the ruckus and while I can't recall a specific instance, I feel almost certain it has happened in those zones.

Why can't we have the important conversations without the attempts at levity? Is it too uncomfortable?

My apologies for the rant. I watched it happen a couple of days ago and didn't say anything for lack of time, but today, it just really crawled all over me. Perhaps others don't share my view and that's really ok.

I really hope the conversations can continue. They are important.

Christie

[tapu]

Originally Posted by christie0918

I have been following the conversation regarding BV, female vs. male (feminine vs. masculine) leadership, the feelings of erasure and invalidation of female ID'd butches and non qualified butches (for those who just claim "butch") and I just have to say that it feels really, really negating to have the frivilious comments interjected as the ones I have quoted here.

Its obvious that this is a conversation that isn't easy or not close to folks' hearts. Why is this shit necessary?

It seems very immature and demeaning to me. If I can't add to the conversation at hand, I generally just read. Doesn't mean I am not interested if I don't participate nor does it mean that its not important. Perhaps I am too busy to be able to take the time to engage and stay engaged. Perhaps I need time to reflect on others' posts and get my own in order.

What really silences me is when I am moving right along, reading the conversation and then WHAM! It really distracts and deflects. Is that the purpose?

Would it happen in other forums such as the Femme, Butch or Trans zones? I can't help but believe it would cause quite the ruckus and while I can't recall a specific instance, I feel almost certain it has happened in those zones.

Why can't we have the important conversations without the attempts at levity? Is it too uncomfortable?

My apologies for the rant. I watched it happen a couple of days ago and didn't say anything for lack of time, but today, it just really crawled all over me. Perhaps others don't share my view and that's really ok.

I really hope the conversations can continue. They are important.

Christie

My posts are fairly short. You can just skip them.

[Dominique]

when I finally mustered up enough courage to speak, I became even more invisable.....and I even said that didn't I?

[BullDog]

Butch is just not good enough for an organization called Butch Voices.

Even today Joe is on Facebook talking about butch being a term that has been used against people or something that some never identified with and basically that it's limiting.

Well for those who don't identify with the word butch, wouldn't they either be going to a Butch Conference as an ally or not even care about such a thing?

For me, yes some have attempted to use butch in a derisive manner against me, as well as dyke. If any word has been hurled at me in a derisive manner it has been dyke. Guess what I am a proud butch dyke. Those words both separately and in combination are powerful for me. I respect those who don't use the terms for themselves, but I personally do not need to be protected or have some supposed new language invented to protect me (aka Masculine of Center) with words that have no personal meaning for me.

I live my life as a butch every day. I would think an organization called Butch Voices would be relevant to me in addition to other types of butches.

If they want to have an organization that serves a broader or different gender spectrum than butch, why don't they change their name? You know why I don't think they will? It goes back to a few things that Jack and June said. Butch is more recognizable, Butch Voices is their "brand." So they are using the term Butch to build a wider audience because it's more recognizable but their organization is not really centered around Butch. It really does tick me off.

Oh and to suggest the reason people have left is because the work is too hard or there are personality conflicts is complete bullshit. As Jack said it's dismissive and erasing. Jack, Toughy, myself and a few others left for very similar reasons in 2008-09 as Jeanne Cordova, Sasha Goldberg and others did in 2011. We aren't being listened to. They are building their brand at our expense.

You know I do think they are all about diversity and inclusion. However in their branding process they are walking over the backs and erasing a large segment of butches who live their lives every day as butches- every day lives where being visibly lesbian/queer masculine females and women have real life consequences. We aren't somewhere out in gender theory land looking for slogans and brands to protect ourselves or make ourselves into something that we are not. We are living our lives- butch is real life, not gender theory.

[tapu]

Serious question here, and whatever the answer is fine with me. I just want to understand.

Is it clear to most everyone from the thread title and the OP that this is intended to be a serious discussion about "Butch Voices"?

If so, what is its relationship to the thread in a different forum that is called "Butch Voices" or some variation on that?

I really don't want to break the rules of how to post, whatever those rules are. Or whoever's.

[Dominique]

No, not at all...but conversations evolve, you know how that goes. The OP who ID's as a guy was posting in a lesbian thread, conflict of intrest I think, and some one tried to point that out and was silenced, (yawn) then the butch voices thing sort of side barred from there

[dixie]

Originally Posted by Yellow band

No, not at all...but conversations evolve, you know how that goes. The OP who ID's as a guy was posting in a lesbian thread, conflict of intrest I think, and some one tried to point that out and was silenced, (yawn) then the butch voices thing sort of side barred from there

Perhaps I'm confused.

So....when someone I will (suspect) call an "ally" starts a thread to give us a voice (i.e. another place to hang out and make ourselves known), it's a conflict of interest? To me that sounds as though you are implying that our space should be ours and ours alone, without allowing supporters/allies/significant others/etc who do not identify as lesbian to have any part. Personally, if it is a lesbian space I think lesbian should be the focus but those supportive of lesbians should be allowed as well. (Which also happens to be my opinion of BV, although substitute "butch" for "lesbian" in my last sentence.)

Then again, perhaps it was your yawning (which was just as immature in my opinion as other comments that have been called out) that threw me off a little.

[Liam]

Originally Posted by tapu

Serious question here, and whatever the answer is fine with me. I just want to understand.

Is it clear to most everyone from the thread title and the OP that this is intended to be a serious discussion about "Butch Voices"?

If so, what is its relationship to the thread in a different forum that is called "Butch Voices" or some variation on that?

I really don't want to break the rules of how to post, whatever those rules are. Or whoever's.

As the OP, I had no attachment to what was discussed in this thread, when I created it. New members complained they were having difficulty seeing the lesbians in our community. The conversation has meandered here and there, and more than likely will continue to do so. At present, a serious discussion about Butch Voices seems to be on the table. There have been other threads created to specifically discuss Butch Voices, so currently the relationship this thread has with them is the same topic.

Originally Posted by Yellow band

No, not at all...but conversations evolve, you know how that goes. The OP who ID's as a guy was posting in a lesbian thread, conflict of intrest I think, and some one tried to point that out and was silenced, (yawn) then the butch voices thing sort of side barred from there

Yellow Band, I created this thread, I'm not interested in posting in it at all, although I do enjoy reading it from time to time. If folks would quit asking questions of the OP—me, I wouldn't have to. I would have explained this to you via private message, but apparently you do not receive private messages.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by christie0918

I have been following the conversation regarding BV, female vs. male (feminine vs. masculine) leadership, the feelings of erasure and invalidation of female ID'd butches and non qualified butches (for those who just claim "butch") and I just have to say that it feels really, really negating to have the frivilious comments interjected as the ones I have quoted here.

Its obvious that this is a conversation that isn't easy or not close to folks' hearts. Why is this shit necessary?

It seems very immature and demeaning to me. If I can't add to the conversation at hand, I generally just read. Doesn't mean I am not interested if I don't participate nor does it mean that its not important. Perhaps I am too busy to be able to take the time to engage and stay engaged. Perhaps I need time to reflect on others' posts and get my own in order.

What really silences me is when I am moving right along, reading the conversation and then WHAM! It really distracts and deflects. Is that the purpose?

Would it happen in other forums such as the Femme, Butch or Trans zones? I can't help but believe it would cause quite the ruckus and while I can't recall a specific instance, I feel almost certain it has happened in those zones.

Why can't we have the important conversations without the attempts at levity? Is it too uncomfortable?

My apologies for the rant. I watched it happen a couple of days ago and didn't say anything for lack of time, but today, it just really crawled all over me. Perhaps others don't share my view and that's really ok.

I really hope the conversations can continue. They are important.

Christie

Christie, I certainly didn't intend to offend anyone with my comments.

However....this current conversation about Butch Voices and the political, gender, community organizing, "speaking for others" and all of the other serious topics being discussed is happening in a thread entitled "Here come the lesbians, here come the leaping lesbians..." and now the conversation (as I understand it) is all about the inclusion of transpeople in a historically butch venue.

I would argue that the current conversation is the derail....and I'd like to get back to folks on the site stepping up and saying "hi, I'm a lesbian."

My description of myself is actually on point....and my light-hearted approach at the serious topic of saying....I am sick to fucking death of everyone trying to define how everyone else "should" be and what we should call ourselves and if we're femme enough or butch enough or what those terms even mean.

i define me.

You define you.

I say let anyone who claims the title butch define it for themselves.

And, just for me and I know I'm more than a little toey right now....I'm going back to my light-hearted lesbian leaping, in a thread with the title of the same name.

Thanks,
Jo, the leaping, cannon-balling, tough as nails and polka dot wearing lesbian

[*Anya*]

I, for one, am glad there is a thread where I can once again be reminded that I am a Lesbian, feminist, femme.

[Kobi]

Interesting how this thread didnt get too much traffic until the post about how butch lesbians are affected by and feel about what is happening at BV.

A 100% increase in pages in just a couple of days! Thats impressive.

I know why the butches are leaping but I'm not too sure why everyone else suddenly wants to leap. It's nice to see tho.

[dykeumentary]

Originally Posted by Chazz

The problem, as I see it, is that the high echelon of "Butch Voices" has a different world view and agenda than woman identified butches. How could they not? It's okay; they're entitled.

Furthermore, the "Butch Voices" folks are speaking a different language. They're speak GENDERese - a language borne of gender theory.

Woman identified butches tend to speak in SEXUAL ORIENTATION-ese - a language based in sex/biology, lesbian/gay rights, and, in some cases, Feminism. That's okay, too.

What is NOT okay is the high echelon of "Butch Voices" (transgenderists) presuming to speak for BUTCHES. Not all butches - butches, period.

Butch is a term that speaks to sexual orientation, sex/ biology (femaleness) - not transgenderism. It's a full time, life long identity - not a way station on the road to maledom.

"BUTCH" has a long, hard fought, and precious HERitage that has nothing to do with transgenderism, except to the extent that the lesbian community has ceded use of the term to those who see it as a transitional, oft times, a convenient identifier on the way to maleness.

Butch is not that. It's a life-long identity that has to do with sexual orientation.

"For the life of me" seems to be the phrase in fashion, so I'll just say: For the life of me, how did a term based in sexual orientation get appropriated by folks who don't see themselves as lesbian?

Well, it's part and parcel to the imposed tagging around "cis" this and "cis" that. Now, the same folks who brought us "cis" are presuming to take ownership of (lesbian) butch identity and define that, too.

It's okay to call to call a foul, a foul. It's okay defend what rightfully belongs to you. That's not oppressive or being exclusionary. It's being self-respecting.

Vive Butch Nation.

Thats strange. I posted, but now the post is messed up and a 'thanks' is even gone. I'll see if i can remember it:

Is there some cultural/regional/ethnic aversion to the word "lesbian" among "the deciders" of BV? Anyone have any insight on this? I rarely see terms like "aggressive lesbian" and "stud lesbian" so i am curious. Is there a cultural reason that the word lesbian is being avoided? The "masculine of center" terminology seems like a way to take the sex out of it. Who wants that?

There's the idea that goes "means are the ends, and the journey shapes the destination". I think BV won't end up where it (or it's public relations firm) thinks they are going if their processs continues like they've handled this. Working against oppression requires naming and challenging oppression. BV is acting like its found a "market" in appropriating the word butch (women who continue to be oppressed), giving the word a new definition (one that they feel comfortable with), then having their "work" be paid for by the oppressed people. That is decidedly not liberation, but it might be "intellectual property".

I love the word "lesbian" and all the danger it implies. I'm so glad BV has given us lesbians the opportunity to be seen as dangerous once again. People should go if they want, but I'd rather be fighting oppression than "branding" it. And I'd rather be having hot lesbian sex.

[Heart]

I am mystified about why BV would jettison the word "butch" because it's been hurled at people in a derogatory or humiliating manner. Haven't most words related to queerdom been used that way? Like dyke, faggot, lezzie, the word queer itself?

But I guess screaming, "Fucking masculine-of-center!" doesn't quite work -- so maybe they have a point...?

[*Anya*]

I thought given both threads, a little herstory might give perspective. For those of us that already lived through this in the second wave of feminism-it really just is the same issue of inclusion:

"In 1969, National Organization for Women president Betty Friedan had referred to growing lesbian visibility as a "lavender menace" and fired openly lesbian newsletter editor Rita Mae Brown. Furthermore, in 1970 Betty Friedan engineered the expulsion of lesbians, including local president Ivy Bottini, from NOW's New York chapter. In 1970, at the Congress to Unite Women, on the first evening when all four hundred feminists were assembeled in the auditorium, the lights were shut off, and when they were turned on again twenty women wearing t-shirts that read "Lavender Menace" stood at the front of the room, facing the audience. One of the women then read their group's paper "The Woman-Identified Woman", which was the first major lesbian feminist statement. The group, who later named themselves "Radicalesbians", were among the first to challenge the heterosexism of heterosexual feminists and to describe lesbian experience in positive terms."