Reclaiming Lesbian Pride

[ScandalAndy]

I was cruising some of the older posts (lol cruising) and noticed that there was a bit of discussion about feminist reading material.

Is there any other reading material/movies that anyone finds particularly prideful or that portrays lesbians in a positive light? I know one of the major critiques of lesbian representation in the media is that they're either crazy or they die at the end of the film. I always struggle with that.


As a side note, I spent the past five days in a very small town and was openly talked about when my friend kissed me. It was a tiny peck, but apparently all the old men in the firehall saw fit to flap their gums about it. I refused to let them make me feel bad about who I am. There's my prideful moment for the week.

[CherylNYC]

Originally Posted by ScandalAndy

I was cruising some of the older posts (lol cruising) and noticed that there was a bit of discussion about feminist reading material.

Is there any other reading material/movies that anyone finds particularly prideful or that portrays lesbians in a positive light? I know one of the major critiques of lesbian representation in the media is that they're either crazy or they die at the end of the film. I always struggle with that.


As a side note, I spent the past five days in a very small town and was openly talked about when my friend kissed me. It was a tiny peck, but apparently all the old men in the firehall saw fit to flap their gums about it. I refused to let them make me feel bad about who I am. There's my prideful moment for the week.

Call me a sap, but for a happy, stress-free lesbian movie night, I never get enough of The Incredibly True Adventures of Two Girls In Love. The butch/femme girls bumbling into love are adorable. The butch lesbian aunt and her femme partner, (and exes), are perfectly portrayed. It's sweet, and the lesbians get to be happy. It was one of the first times I saw movie images that looked like people I know.

[Kobi]

Most of the novel type things I love are probably out of print

I do like the tv series Exes and Ohs - is like a lesbian version of "Friends", sweet, cute, and very funny.

[EnderD_503]

I'm sorry to intrude on the discussion, though perhaps apologies are pointless when I've already waltzed in...but I'm sorry. It's difficult to stand by, especially when we've already got a thread going on the issue, when such blatant transphobia is displayed. I fully support lesbians claiming lesbian pride, but what I don't support is doing it by degrading transwomen and claiming that transwomen lesbians are not "real" lesbians or "real" women. To me that is utterly and completely transphobic. I know that June addressed part of what I have to say, but I don't think the point can be stressed enough.

@Chazz

You think transwomen should be allowed at MWMF - I think Mich Fest's WBW mission statement should be honored and respected. There are too many places in this community where WBW aren't honored, respected or given "ground" to stand on in the fullness of their/our particularism. One event a year doesn't seem like much to ask for. (I've never attended Mich Fest, nor do I ever intend to.)

Claiming that transwomen are not born women, and that their presence among lesbians/women that they deem to be their sisters is not "honouring" or "respecting" women who were born with XX chromosomes, is so utterly transphobic. Transwomen are women in every way. They may have been born with the wrong chromosomes and in the wrong body, but they are women through and through. They are not lesser women than women who were born female-bodied. I fail to see how you think that excluding one component of the lesbian community is somehow benefiting that community. That kind of mentality wreaks of the typical Janice Raymond bullshit of transwomen somehow being a threat to other women, or being sent to "infiltrate" women's spaces in order to corrupt or destroy them.

Not sarcastic, an acknowledgment of fact. In one way or another, lesbians/women tend to do most of the heavy lifting while males and once-males benefit from the bounty of lesbians/women's efforts, often, without ever making a tangible contribution to the effort.

And here you ignore the history of the G/L liberation movement, the same way you ignored the history of transmen in the butch community some months back. Or perhaps you just like to omit the portions of history that don't suit you and your ideas. Transwomen in particular have been a part of the struggle for gay and lesbian rights since the beginning of the movement. They were among the pioneers who struggled against discrimination and police brutality exhibited against gays, lesbians and alongside them transwomen/drag queens of all sexual orientations. Transwomen in particular were thrown under the bus despite the sacrifices they made. So when you sit there and claim that transwomen have just sat back and waited for lesbians and women born XX to fight their battles for them, I'm sorry but you're twisting history so perversely that it is nothing short of insult to the transwomen who sacrificed so much.

[dreadgeek]

Thank you. Well-spoken. Both of you. I am genuinely verklempt.

Cheers
Aj

Originally Posted by DapperButch

One of you please help me understand this.

How can either of you talk about how "refreshing" it is that everyone is being so "respectful" in this thread?

There is blatant bigotry of transwomen going on in this thread. Did you guys just miss that part, or are you ok with that part? Really, I want to understand this.

There is more than one lesbian transwoman on this message board. They are a PART of our community. Do you not think they are reading the words that have been written here? Do you have any freaking concept as to how it might be making them feel?

I agree with you, AtLast, there is no "hidden gem" slights...there are right out there in the open!

Yes, I know that June handled this, but I cannot sit idly by and not have some member of the community acknowledge how shitty this is, so I am doing it, even though I do not belong in this thread.

Chazz, we have lesbian transwomen here. They are an important part of our community. Please consider that the next time you speak about "once-male", people.

(P.S. I will not be available to post again until Sunday, Good nIght, all).

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

I'm sorry to intrude on the discussion, though perhaps apologies are pointless when I've already waltzed in...but I'm sorry. It's difficult to stand by, especially when we've already got a thread going on the issue, when such blatant transphobia is displayed. I fully support lesbians claiming lesbian pride, but what I don't support is doing it by degrading transwomen and claiming that transwomen lesbians are not "real" lesbians or "real" women. To me that is utterly and completely transphobic. I know that June addressed part of what I have to say, but I don't think the point can be stressed enough.

@Chazz



Claiming that transwomen are not born women, and that their presence among lesbians/women that they deem to be their sisters is not "honouring" or "respecting" women who were born with XX chromosomes, is so utterly transphobic. Transwomen are women in every way. They may have been born with the wrong chromosomes and in the wrong body, but they are women through and through. They are not lesser women than women who were born female-bodied. I fail to see how you think that excluding one component of the lesbian community is somehow benefiting that community. That kind of mentality wreaks of the typical Janice Raymond bullshit of transwomen somehow being a threat to other women, or being sent to "infiltrate" women's spaces in order to corrupt or destroy them.



And here you ignore the history of the G/L liberation movement, the same way you ignored the history of transmen in the butch community some months back. Or perhaps you just like to omit the portions of history that don't suit you and your ideas. Transwomen in particular have been a part of the struggle for gay and lesbian rights since the beginning of the movement. They were among the pioneers who struggled against discrimination and police brutality exhibited against gays, lesbians and alongside them transwomen/drag queens of all sexual orientations. Transwomen in particular were thrown under the bus despite the sacrifices they made. So when you sit there and claim that transwomen have just sat back and waited for lesbians and women born XX to fight their battles for them, I'm sorry but you're twisting history so perversely that it is nothing short of insult to the transwomen who sacrificed so much.

[Heart]

Dapper, Ender... did you see where I, a lesbian feminist woman, pushed back against excluding transwomen? I'm just curious if you saw that part of the dialogue that was going on here? Because one of the things that was important to me, in the wake of the BV/BN split, was that butch women were speaking up, finally about things that had long been festering. Which was an opportunity.

I have no argument with June modding Chazz's comment, but I do have a problem with the suggestion that Chazz leave the site. Chazz is no longer here to read your posts or to engage in discussion, whether it's about transwomen belonging or butch women belonging. That's a loss.

Sadly,
Heart

[Kobi]

Dapper,

To answer your inquiry, sometimes within a certain context we might perceive things differently or interpret them differently or miss them all together. There is a built in system of checks and balances for when this happens. The system was on top of things today.

From my point of view, this doesn't detract from the good things that are occuring in this thread. Amongst those good things are the following:

1. People who, perhaps, didnt feel they had a "safe" place to talk about a multitude of issues of concern to them found a place. And, the space was respected. Wow.

2. In this "safe" place, stuff that has been festering below the surface began to see the light of day. As you are aware, when things fester without a voice, when they do find a voice they dont always come thru in the most optimal way.

3. When this occured, and it did on many occasions, it was addressed. And, it was addressed in a respectful manner which was educative rather than punitive, exploratory rather than presumptive, and aimed at expanding a dialogue rather than shutting a dialog down. To me, this is a huge accomplishment. Not perfect but a huge step forward.

4. This thread, aside from the times there were attempts to turn into something it wasnt, has had a conspicuous lack of histrionics, drama, and reactionary behavior. This too has helped further a dialog and exploration and goodwill among its participants. It hasnt been about consensus. It has been, from my standpoint, about sharing, listening, learning, and a lot of other neat stuff geared toward growth and understanding.

5. There is a process going on here that feels and looks a lot different. It is not perfect but it feels generally healthy and helpful.

If we need to discuss this further, please feel free to pm me.

[dreadgeek]

Kobi:

Thank you for explaining your position. You may have noticed that pretty much the *minute* MWMF was invoked, I backed off the conversation and went silent. That is because I *knew* that it was only a matter of time before something was posted where transwomen would be portrayed as 'not really women' or 'not really belonging to the lesbian community'. At that moment, the space--not just this thread but this entire site--became unsafe for me. Now, I don't really expect the world to be a safe space. I would not have made it into middle-age as a black lesbian if I expected the world to welcome me with open arms. I do, however, strongly prefer to be in spaces where I won't be subject to reading things that explicitly state--for reasons entirely beyond your control, you do not belong here. But it goes farther than that. Yesterday, as I wrestled with saying something in response, a question crossed my mind: is there any amount of time or effort a transwoman could spend in the lesbian community that would allow her to not be thought of as an interloper and to be brought into the circle of 'sister'. My gut instinct is that for anyone who uses the term 'once-males' to refer to transgendered women a million years wouldn't be half enough time. I also get the feeling--and I may be wrong--that if a transwoman carried not just her own weight but the weight of the next 10 women around her, those contributions would *still* not be enough.

So what I read was that transwomen had no legitimate place and in that moment, as I said before, this place became deeply 'unsafe'. So why am I still here? Why did I not leave? Because before I was a queer, I was already black. I know unsafe space. I know how to maneuver around unsafe space. My neighborhood was unsafe space--in the way that being the only black kid in your class from kindergarten to sixth grade can be. At some point in between being subjected to the tender mercies of elementary school children picking on the kid who looks most different to the experience of coming out and promptly being told that I was a race traitor (yes, I have had people say that to me) for being queer, I realized that if someone holds a prejudice against me, there is very little I can do to change their mind. I can, however, decide that I will hold my head high, that I will carry myself with dignity and that I will hold to a very high standard of conduct. My logic is that the bigot will still think me low, undeserving or an interloper but I will, in the fullness of time, make that bigot look like a fool. How? By being a shining star. By being honorable, intelligent, erudite, kind, expansive, friendly and hard-working. What could do more damage to any of the myths that people might have about me because I'm black, queer, etc. than to be the kind of woman you could proudly take home to mother?

Years ago, when I came out and first discovered that there were two groups within the queer community--particularly the lesbian community--that were considered once and for all time outside the circle of sisterhood; bisexuals and transwomen. The blatantly racist or anti-Semitic statement had no place and any woman fool enough to utter it in public would have the wrath of Sappho herself visited upon her. But bisexuals could be spoken of in terms of being vectors of disease contaminating what would otherwise have been an ostensibly disease-free lesbian community. At least bisexuals were not thought to be intentionally volunteering to be disease vectors while transwomen were thought to have truly evil intent--although this being the 90s and post-modernism being what it was, no one used the term evil. Rather, it was couched in terms of transwomen having some nebulous, shadowy but nefarious intent to do undermine the lesbian community from within. At the time, I was writing for every gay or lesbian newspaper or magazine that would publish me. I stumbled across a question that was relevant in 1991 and is relevant 20 years later, what are we in this for? By this I mean the Movement for the rights of queer people to live their lives as full citizens with agency. Are we in it because--as I believe--that it is simply wrong for individuals to be discriminated against in either law or custom because of some arbitrary characteristic OR are we in this because such discrimination is happening to *us*. This is a non-trivial difference. If you believe that bigotry and prejudice are wrong then one would hope one would spread that net as far as possible. It goes beyond the discrimination that happens to me, it is the discrimination I make others the target of. If, on the other hand, one believes that the discrimination that happens to one's own group is wrong but not that bigotry or prejudice are generally wrong, then one need not look to the plank in one's own eye. All that matters is that the other person standing on one's foot get the hell off your foot. IF the queer movement is against bigotry or prejudice based upon arbitrary characteristics of gender or sexual orientation, then our movement cannot give much quarter to a form of bigotry that says "I don't care, nor do I have to care, how long ago you transitioned you will always be, in my eyes, whatever your chromosomes say you are". If, on the other hand, we are concerned only with the more limited question of "lesbians and gay men are subject to injustice because they are gay or lesbian" that allows for the community to have a space for bigotry against bisexuals or transsexuals or transgendered people or, for that matter, butches and femmes.

Twenty years ago, I cast my lot in with that part of the community that believed that the discrimination that happens to bisexuals or transsexuals *within* the queer community is no better than discrimination that happens against all queer people. I would have preferred that gender theory were not the vehicle by which transgendered people gained a greater level of acceptance because I think that post-modernism, upon which gender theory is based, is deeply and profoundly broken because it is incoherent. I almost feel guilty at having benefited from gender theory and its ancestor, post-modernism, because I would be quite happy putting the final nail in the coffin of that ideology.

Cheers
Aj

Originally Posted by Kobi

Dapper,

To answer your inquiry, sometimes within a certain context we might perceive things differently or interpret them differently or miss them all together. There is a built in system of checks and balances for when this happens. The system was on top of things today.

From my point of view, this doesn't detract from the good things that are occuring in this thread. Amongst those good things are the following:

1. People who, perhaps, didnt feel they had a "safe" place to talk about a multitude of issues of concern to them found a place. And, the space was respected. Wow.

2. In this "safe" place, stuff that has been festering below the surface began to see the light of day. As you are aware, when things fester without a voice, when they do find a voice they dont always come thru in the most optimal way.

3. When this occured, and it did on many occasions, it was addressed. And, it was addressed in a respectful manner which was educative rather than punitive, exploratory rather than presumptive, and aimed at expanding a dialogue rather than shutting a dialog down. To me, this is a huge accomplishment. Not perfect but a huge step forward.

4. This thread, aside from the times there were attempts to turn into something it wasnt, has had a conspicuous lack of histrionics, drama, and reactionary behavior. This too has helped further a dialog and exploration and goodwill among its participants. It hasnt been about consensus. It has been, from my standpoint, about sharing, listening, learning, and a lot of other neat stuff geared toward growth and understanding.

5. There is a process going on here that feels and looks a lot different. It is not perfect but it feels generally healthy and helpful.

If we need to discuss this further, please feel free to pm me.

[CherylNYC]

Thank your for all your posts, Aj. Like Kobi, I missed 'once male' altogether. I didn't understand the reference, and giddy with the joy of FINALLY reading posts by and for lesbian feminist butch-femme women, instead of reading posts about how far butches can push themselves towards maleness on the spectrum(sic), I didn't bother to sort out the meaning of the term.

I've been excited about a seeming resurgence in lesbian pride. As much as I wish we were not talking about the acceptance of transwomen in our community instead of lesbian pride, clearly we're not done yet.

Your post has made me thoughtful about my own history. I have a baaad history with men. I've been the object of a lifetime of very invasive, not to mention criminal behaviour. The reason I'm far more wary of men, even though I've also been financially and sexually abused by a woman, is that my issues with men are current and ongoing. I may be pushing 50, but they still sniff up my butt like a pack of dogs. No, there's nothing flattering about it. I would be a fool and a victim if I didn't maintain a VERY guarded posture with most men. For me, safety is relative and the safest space is women's space. Like many feminists of my era, I treasure and guard women's space because it's very meaningful to me.

This is relevant because many lesbians have felt, just as you pointed out, that transwomen are really men who have come to invade women's space. I certainly felt that way for a long time. A close friend, A, changed that view. She's a woman. Period. I don't care that A has a long history as a man prior to her transition. Like you, she holds her head high, carries herself with dignity, and holds herself to a very high standard of conduct. I'm quite certain that she did that before she transitioned, too.

The part that's problematic is that I've met many transwoman who do not. So has A. The half dozen transwomen I knew before I met A had been fully socialised as men, and it showed. They fulfilled all my worst expectations by using typically male power grabs in meetings of our women's groups. Some felt that the loudest voice always prevails. One bullied and abused her tiny wife. One was very adept at conspicuously throwing her money around with the expectation that it would purchase agreement. Yes, I know that women sometimes do these things. I'm talking about people who do these things BECAUSE it's part of their socialised male behaviour patterns. Did these transwomen look like invading men to me? You bet.

My good friend A actually never blamed me for those feelings when I confessed them to her. She told me that she's been equally horrified by male socialised behaviours she sees some transwomen exhibiting, and she worries that others will judge her based on their poor behaviour. She calls it "privilege in a dress".

As far as I know, here in NYC my friend is no longer in danger of being disrespected or made to feel unwelcome in any part of our communities. MWMF is the only event from which she's excluded. I've observed her getting the fish-eye in straight settings, but according to her she hasn't felt or heard any anti-trans actions or words directed towards her from anyone in our LGBT, BDSM, or women's communities. Ironically, she has been vilified by other trans people because of her views about what it means to be a woman. My friend can happily come and go to women's groups and events in safety because there's been such a strong push towards trans acceptance here in NYC.

As Aj wrote, the ticket to that acceptance has been current gender theory. The part that both A and I find mind boggling is that current gender theory is erasing of women, lesbians, and our lesbian feminist history. We both feel strongly that there's a difference between women and men, but that makes us hopeless dinosaurs. Oh, and it makes us transphobes, too. She has been called a transphobe and a token by women who have never been trans. True story. Out of respect for A's wishes I didn't kick anyone's ass, but I'm still seething about it.

Because I need safe space, because I'm a lesbian and a feminist, because I care about our culture and our hard-won space, I'll continue to guard it. That means that when I encounter men claiming to be women I'll question their presence in my women's groups. (A very tall and large man who wore the same clothes he always did, went to the same barber he always did, and changed NOT ONE SINGLE THING about himself to signal to the world that he might be trans, or anything other than a man, while claiming that he felt like a woman. He demanded access and got it. A was chagrined, as was I.) I don't want male crossdressers, who are now claiming to be trans, at my women's sex parties. (Ask me how I felt about the crossdresser with his otherwise naked dick tied up in a bow, who had to get in my face while I was in a compromised position at a women's play party last year.)

The reason that the man who claimed to be a woman could do so is because current gender theory tells him that he's any gender he wakes up feeling on any given day. He maintained that he was a woman if he said he was one, and no hormones, surgery, or changes in any part of his outward body or dress were necessary for him to have access to women's space. That really pissed me off.

The reason that the very male crossdresser who came to the women's play party was allowed to remain was because he said he was trans. The party organisor is a committed trans advocate, and she was pretty irritated by this man's presence. Even though she felt strongly that he didn't belong, she told me that she feared backlash from the trans community for excluding anyone who said he was trans. That really pissed me off, too.

I want my safety to be as important as the safety of people with penises. Why is that so hard?

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

Kobi:

Thank you for explaining your position. You may have noticed that pretty much the *minute* MWMF was invoked, I backed off the conversation and went silent. That is because I *knew* that it was only a matter of time before something was posted where transwomen would be portrayed as 'not really women' or 'not really belonging to the lesbian community'. At that moment, the space--not just this thread but this entire site--became unsafe for me. Now, I don't really expect the world to be a safe space. I would not have made it into middle-age as a black lesbian if I expected the world to welcome me with open arms. I do, however, strongly prefer to be in spaces where I won't be subject to reading things that explicitly state--for reasons entirely beyond your control, you do not belong here. But it goes farther than that. Yesterday, as I wrestled with saying something in response, a question crossed my mind: is there any amount of time or effort a transwoman could spend in the lesbian community that would allow her to not be thought of as an interloper and to be brought into the circle of 'sister'. My gut instinct is that for anyone who uses the term 'once-males' to refer to transgendered women a million years wouldn't be half enough time. I also get the feeling--and I may be wrong--that if a transwoman carried not just her own weight but the weight of the next 10 women around her, those contributions would *still* not be enough.

So what I read was that transwomen had no legitimate place and in that moment, as I said before, this place became deeply 'unsafe'. So why am I still here? Why did I not leave? Because before I was a queer, I was already black. I know unsafe space. I know how to maneuver around unsafe space. My neighborhood was unsafe space--in the way that being the only black kid in your class from kindergarten to sixth grade can be. At some point in between being subjected to the tender mercies of elementary school children picking on the kid who looks most different to the experience of coming out and promptly being told that I was a race traitor (yes, I have had people say that to me) for being queer, I realized that if someone holds a prejudice against me, there is very little I can do to change their mind. I can, however, decide that I will hold my head high, that I will carry myself with dignity and that I will hold to a very high standard of conduct. My logic is that the bigot will still think me low, undeserving or an interloper but I will, in the fullness of time, make that bigot look like a fool. How? By being a shining star. By being honorable, intelligent, erudite, kind, expansive, friendly and hard-working. What could do more damage to any of the myths that people might have about me because I'm black, queer, etc. than to be the kind of woman you could proudly take home to mother?

Years ago, when I came out and first discovered that there were two groups within the queer community--particularly the lesbian community--that were considered once and for all time outside the circle of sisterhood; bisexuals and transwomen. The blatantly racist or anti-Semitic statement had no place and any woman fool enough to utter it in public would have the wrath of Sappho herself visited upon her. But bisexuals could be spoken of in terms of being vectors of disease contaminating what would otherwise have been an ostensibly disease-free lesbian community. At least bisexuals were not thought to be intentionally volunteering to be disease vectors while transwomen were thought to have truly evil intent--although this being the 90s and post-modernism being what it was, no one used the term evil. Rather, it was couched in terms of transwomen having some nebulous, shadowy but nefarious intent to do undermine the lesbian community from within. At the time, I was writing for every gay or lesbian newspaper or magazine that would publish me. I stumbled across a question that was relevant in 1991 and is relevant 20 years later, what are we in this for? By this I mean the Movement for the rights of queer people to live their lives as full citizens with agency. Are we in it because--as I believe--that it is simply wrong for individuals to be discriminated against in either law or custom because of some arbitrary characteristic OR are we in this because such discrimination is happening to *us*. This is a non-trivial difference. If you believe that bigotry and prejudice are wrong then one would hope one would spread that net as far as possible. It goes beyond the discrimination that happens to me, it is the discrimination I make others the target of. If, on the other hand, one believes that the discrimination that happens to one's own group is wrong but not that bigotry or prejudice are generally wrong, then one need not look to the plank in one's own eye. All that matters is that the other person standing on one's foot get the hell off your foot. IF the queer movement is against bigotry or prejudice based upon arbitrary characteristics of gender or sexual orientation, then our movement cannot give much quarter to a form of bigotry that says "I don't care, nor do I have to care, how long ago you transitioned you will always be, in my eyes, whatever your chromosomes say you are". If, on the other hand, we are concerned only with the more limited question of "lesbians and gay men are subject to injustice because they are gay or lesbian" that allows for the community to have a space for bigotry against bisexuals or transsexuals or transgendered people or, for that matter, butches and femmes.

Twenty years ago, I cast my lot in with that part of the community that believed that the discrimination that happens to bisexuals or transsexuals *within* the queer community is no better than discrimination that happens against all queer people. I would have preferred that gender theory were not the vehicle by which transgendered people gained a greater level of acceptance because I think that post-modernism, upon which gender theory is based, is deeply and profoundly broken because it is incoherent. I almost feel guilty at having benefited from gender theory and its ancestor, post-modernism, because I would be quite happy putting the final nail in the coffin of that ideology.

Cheers
Aj

[dreadgeek]

June:

When I was little--probably 12 or around there--I was baking biscuits with my grandmother and I asked her if she hated white people. She was born in 1903 and lived her whole life in the same town in Louisiana (Ruston). If anyone had a reason to hate white people, it was Mama Gus. She looked at me, sat me down and gave me this which, to this day, forms the core of my ethics:

"Baby, we can't hate them back. See, maybe the Klansman just don't know any better. He might not know that black people are also children of God. But you and I know what it's like to be hated. Now, if you do evil out of ignorance, God will forgive that because only He knows everything. But if you do evil because you have seen it, you know it is evil and you choose to do it anyway, that makes you worse than any Klansman. It means you wanted to be evil, even though you know that it hurts real people."

Every time I feel tempted or seduced by hatred--and hating others IS seductive, looking down on others is the easiest mental trick in the world--I remember her words. When I think of Michelle Bachmann, who I have no doubt would happily sign laws that would all but outlaw us, I remember my grandmother's words. I can think her a fool, I can certainly point out that the woman knows slightly more American history than my dog only because my dog can't read, I will absolutely rush to the barricades to defend my nation against the theocracy she wishes to bring but I cannot *hate* her. Oppose, yes. Hate? No.

Cheers
Aj

Originally Posted by June

On a personal note:

It is truly heartbreaking for me that in a thread about Lesbian Pride that a Butch Lesbian has to essentially make a case for herself to be included in the "Loving Circle of Sappho".

In all of our personal narratives, I am sure we can point to many, many people of all kinds who have usurped, oppressed and tread unpleasantly upon our backs in order to lift themselves up.

When we, as a microcosm community allow a few people to do this in order to exert their "Pride" and/or ownership of something, in this case, Lesbian, it does not make us stronger, it divides and others us into factions.

It is my opinion that people who do this are no better, and possibly worse than the likes of Michelle Bachmann, et al. The people who see us as less than human and actively seek to oppress us further based solely upon who we love.

My personal narrative contains experiences that prove to me that it is when I am seen for all the other things I am, a mother, great employee, volunteer, friend, that who I sleep with becomes less important, than who I am as a whole.

It is perplexing to me when "we" do not allow this same courtesy to others that we meet, but instead choose to paint all with the same brush based on opinions formed previously. This is how, even now, in 2011, Racism, Sexism, Misogyny, Sizism, Classism and any other ism you can think of is still running rampant.

Remaining silent = Complicity and approval.

As far as I know, save for personal ones, there is no universal litmus test for Lesbian, and yet some of us act as though there is and actively seek to impose it on others in order to exclude and silence.

--June

[AtLast]

Hummmm... and are we ready to discuss discrimination and bigotry against butch lesbians of every corner of our community dating or partnering with a lesbian transwoman? Where does the crux of this conversation usually go first- the "once a woman" issue? Are these relationships viewed with the same disdain that I have read in threads (mainly in the dash site) about butch on butch relationships and bi-sexuality?

We have many areas in which there existing a safe space is not felt to be so. hell, there have been times I have felt disdain for having been heterosexual in my life time on these forums.

[DapperButch]

Kobi/AtLast,

The reason I felt comfortable posing my question/speaking up is b/c I know you both to be women who are not transphobic and care about others' feelings. I really considered you all missed the "once-male" comment.

Kobi, I hear you and do appreciate that the thread had no drama and such and Heart I did see how you did pushed back in a healthy, dialoging way. I would not/did not post when I read about Chazz's comfort in excluding transwomen from MichFest. I know this is to be a safe place, as Kobi said. What put me over the edge was the praising of a respectful discussion, when there were parts that are just simply DAMAGING to a part of your community, lesbian transwomen.

I'm sorry I need to run...I have a plane to catch...no, seriously.

Originally Posted by Heart

Dapper, Ender... did you see where I, a lesbian feminist woman, pushed back against excluding transwomen? I'm just curious if you saw that part of the dialogue that was going on here? Because one of the things that was important to me, in the wake of the BV/BN split, was that butch women were speaking up, finally about things that had long been festering. Which was an opportunity.

I have no argument with June modding Chazz's comment, but I do have a problem with the suggestion that Chazz leave the site. Chazz is no longer here to read your posts or to engage in discussion, whether it's about transwomen belonging or butch women belonging. That's a loss.

Sadly,
Heart