Breaking the Spell: Rethinking queer community

[The_Lady_Snow]

So what happens to the weirdos who are not mainstream? What exactly is mainstream? I'm trying to grasp. What makes a weirdo?

[weatherboi]

Feminism isn't mainstream and neither was Harvey Milk. He also influenced Dianne Weinstein a Senator of California. I am not a fan of mainstream politicians that live in the closet. I think our community should aim higher.

[Toughy]

Assimilation is not equality. Those of us who live in the burbs, white picket fence, either furry or non-furry kids are accepted (for the most part) ONLY because we look and act like our neighbors. As long as we look and act like our neighbors it's all good in the 'hood. They will even tolerate a suit and tie wearing butch to our faces, but inside that home they still think we are different and will do the 'why don't you get a real man' and 'she would be so pretty if she would just wear a dress and make-up' stuff. I doubt they would be so tolerant if they saw me come out in full leather, packing a big stiffy, with whips and chains attached to my chaps..........it would scare the bejesus out of them and they would clutch their children to their legs. They only tolerate us when we look and act like them on the surface.

And don't ever be fooled into thinking tolerance is a good thing. It's not. The good thing is acceptance. I'm not interested in being tolerated. I am interested in being recognized and accepted because I am a human being.

Tolerance is a false equality. Acceptance is full equality.

[Novelafemme]

Originally Posted by Toughy

Assimilation is not equality. Those of us who live in the burbs, white picket fence, either furry or non-furry kids are accepted (for the most part) ONLY because we look and act like our neighbors. As long as we look and act like our neighbors it's all good in the 'hood. They will even tolerate a suit and tie wearing butch to our faces, but inside that home they still think we are different and will do the 'why don't you get a real man' and 'she would be so pretty if she would just wear a dress and make-up' stuff. I doubt they would be so tolerant if they saw me come out in full leather, packing a big stiffy, with whips and chains attached to my chaps..........it would scare the bejesus out of them and they would clutch their children to their legs. They only tolerate us when we look and act like them on the surface.

And don't ever be fooled into thinking tolerance is a good thing. It's not. The good thing is acceptance. I'm not interested in being tolerated. I am interested in being recognized and accepted because I am a human being.

Tolerance is a false equality. Acceptance is full equality.

FUCK! YA!! AND AMEN!!!

[amiyesiam]

Originally Posted by Toughy

Assimilation is not equality. Those of us who live in the burbs, white picket fence, either furry or non-furry kids are accepted (for the most part) ONLY because we look and act like our neighbors. As long as we look and act like our neighbors it's all good in the 'hood. They will even tolerate a suit and tie wearing butch to our faces, but inside that home they still think we are different and will do the 'why don't you get a real man' and 'she would be so pretty if she would just wear a dress and make-up' stuff. I doubt they would be so tolerant if they saw me come out in full leather, packing a big stiffy, with whips and chains attached to my chaps..........it would scare the bejesus out of them and they would clutch their children to their legs. They only tolerate us when we look and act like them on the surface.

And don't ever be fooled into thinking tolerance is a good thing. It's not. The good thing is acceptance. I'm not interested in being tolerated. I am interested in being recognized and accepted because I am a human being.

Tolerance is a false equality. Acceptance is full equality.

Ya know Toughy I fully agree. Looking like you fit in is not the same as being accepted for who one really is.
But...........
reality is that if the straight couple everyone in the neighborhood adores and thinks of as "normal" were seen dressed as you described they would also be talked about, feared and people would question if it was safe to let the kids sleep over.
I guess for me, it is not about being accepted as gay, it is about being accepted as a human.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by amiyesiam

Ya know Toughy I fully agree. Looking like you fit in is not the same as being accepted for who one really is.
But...........
reality is that if the straight couple everyone in the neighborhood adores and thinks of as "normal" were seen dressed as you described they would also be talked about, feared and people would question if it was safe to let the kids sleep over.
I guess for me, it is not about being accepted as gay, it is about being accepted as a human.

I have a different take on that ami, bdsm straight couples have gatherings alllll the time their neighbors think that's adventurous, kinky, fun!!! Us... We're the weirdo perversts

[amiyesiam]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I have a different take on that ami, bdsm straight couples have gatherings alllll the time their neighbors think that's adventurous, kinky, fun!!! Us... We're the weirdo perversts

I have seen different growing up in middle class straight land. However, you live it and so you would have a much better grasp of how things are.

[imperfect_cupcake]

You know, my boss is a (rather nice looking) tall butch in a suit. That she is a Detective Superintendent for Force Intelligence is no small feat of a) acceptance by most and b) tolerated by many. She's a soft spoken lovely woman who can turn into commanding don't-FUCK-with-me in less than 3 seconds. I see the amount of respect she gets. But I also see the occasional look of "dyke" she gets when someone doesn't like being put in their place by her.

1) If she didn't get the tolerance she'd have no room to get acceptance 2) It's nice for ME to have eye candy for a fuckin change, thank you. First time in my bloody life I've ever had the pleasure in an office. 42 years of sweet fuck all while my dyke mates dribble over straight girls, thank you very much... 3) she gives me fruit 4) I never ever thought I'd respect the po-lice. but here I am working for them and actually really respecting the head of force intelligence. and yep, I probably wouldn't respect her so much if she a) weren't a woman or b) a dyke. But her presence at that level in the Thames Valley Police shows me the the doors for those who desire to be out in the force, are open a hell of a lot wider.

[dreadgeek]

So, I'm curious about something. Let's stipulate that the goal is acceptance. Let's also stipulate that acceptance is something we are going to have to convince people of (in other words, we're not going to be able to use either the law or the Jedi mind trick to gain acceptance). The minute we're talking about convincing people we're talking about bargaining and the minute we're talking about bargaining, we have to talk cost.

So, we want acceptance. In other words, we want our societies to welcome us fully into the circle of human being. Since we want it, they obviously do not currently feel that way about us. Since they don't, they have to be moved from where they are to where we'd like them to be. Since we are bargaining, what are we willing to give up? We're asking the rest of society to give up where they currently are and move to a different mental place. Is this a win for just us? In other words, are we expecting to get what we want without having to give anything in return? If we are, what possible reason does the majority have for moving? They don't necessarily *want* what we want. They may be genuinely satisfied with, say, a world in which people get married. They may not find our argument that they cannot possibly *be* happy with the current state of affairs compelling. So they are going to want *something* in return. What is it we are willing to give up? What price are we willing to pay?

There are always costs and we are not in a position to force our will upon the majority. We have to convince the majority to rearrange social affairs and the majority is going to want to know what they get out of the deal. The things we may *think* they should want may turn out to be something that they do not want so we can't tell them that they, too, will benefit from being able to live as we wish to. So we're going to have to show *some* willingness to give up *something* because all social change is a process of bargaining and negotiation. I don't think we're going to get to the Promised Land--whatever that might look like--without the majority wanting *something* in return. What is that cost?

It's all fine and good to treat social change like the GOP currently treats economic policy which is:

1. Deregulate business
2. Cut taxes to no more than is necessary to keep the military around.
3. Drown government in a bathtub
4. Magic of the market happens here.
5. Prosperity!

It is quite another thing to try to articulate the price of the change we wish to see.

The *reason* that the national mall has a monument in honor of Dr. King isn't because he demanded that America act right. It is because, as A (not the) spokesperson for the Civil Rights Movement he did two things brilliantly. To the majority he issued a challenge which went like this: "You say that because this is America, this is the land of the free. Our very founding documents say that all men are created equal. What freedom is it if a person with money to pay cannot eat at a certain restaurant, shop in a certain store, for no better reason than the color of his skin. You claim that this is a nation of Christians. But what kind of Christianity is it, that says that some little children are unworthy to go to school with other little children because of the color of their skin? So, America, I must ask you--we Black Americans must ask you--do you mean it? If so, is what is happening in Selma and Atlanta and in hundreds of other places large and so, look to *you* like freedom? Does it look to *you* like Christianity to throw bricks at schoolchildren? To Black Americans, he said "we must show them the way through non-violence. They already think us violent, we must not make them right. We must march with dignity and stand tall and brave in the face of violence but we must not be violent back to them. That is the price we must be willing to pay. Many of us will be hurt. Some of us will die. But in the end, we must be willing to pay for equality and freedom with our bones and our blood."

What are we willing to pay with for acceptance and how will we know when we have finally crossed into the Promised Land?

Cheers
Aj

[imperfect_cupcake]

I know I'm willing to pay in terms of perhaps putting some my own judgements aside. I know I'm willing to talk to people in a more measured way instead of being a constant firebrand. Allowing them to be individuals first and not what oppressive group members I may shove them into first without speaking to them because I'm afraid of them. Maybe their are afraid of me because they think I'm going to hurt them in some way. Perhaps being more measured might remove some percieved threat - just like if they were measured with me, I would find that far less threatening.

Perhaps, that's also the way within my community as well.

However, I'm not going to give up physically correcting people for physically touching me inappropriately.

[princessbelle]

Wow. As all of your posts are to me for sure and i know many others Dreadgeek, that is so moving.

There are so many people on this site that are far more eloquent with their wording than i. But, i wanted to try to express my humble thoughts on this.

Is it possible to "borrow" Dr. King's beautiful words and try for the same outcome, so to speak? Is it possible that "we" can utilize his intelligence and heart for yet another step for equality of humanity?

Dr. King says "We must march with dignity and stand tall and brave in the face of violence but we must not be violent back to them. That is the price we must be willing to pay. Many of us will be hurt. Some of us will die. But in the end, we must be willing to pay for equality and freedom with our bones and our blood."

Has it come to this? If we do indeed have to "pay a cost" is this it? Do we march? Do we get more involved? Do we as gay/queer people become more invested and make sure we are known?

I think this is important to think about. If the straight world sees no gain in giving us rights, then we can't expect them to just wake up one day and decide to do it. Knowledge is power and knowledge is how we become more civilized as people, more aware of things that don't necessarily mean anything to us until it is shown before us. Until it is introduced to us in a way that makes us all think, rethink and form perhaps different conclusions.

There are many, many people out there that do this already, i know that. There are pride days, there are gay/queer representatives out there that are fighting for our rights. There are organizations such as BV and BN and many more that are making at least some parts of who we are noticed. But, is it enough?

The point i'm trying to make is this....if we ALL need to take part and follow the words of Dr. King to make change possible by being heard and seen, should we then ALL just....do something?

I admit i do nothing to be seen. I do nothing where my neighbors know i'm a gay woman. Would i maybe change my neighbors mind if their nice neighbor started flying a rainbow flag in my yard? Would they and others slowly start changing their minds on election days, the talk at work watercoolers, the doctrines at church? Would being seen and standing proud to them change their minds? Would it show them that we are ...well, their neighbors?

If every gay/queer person did something to make it appearent that we are here and we aren't going away, wouldn't things start to change? I don't know, but that seems to be Dr. King's message or at least part of it.

It's known to many i live in the South. Within one mile of my house is at least 6 churches that i can think of right off the top of my head. I hide. I admit it. I don't show my neighbors or anyone who i am. I tell selected few about my lifestyle. Not because i'm ashamed but because i'm scared. Or...am i ashamed? God, i hope not. On the news here we have KKK events listed, we had a shooting at a gay friendly church not that long ago, the list goes on and on. The people here, some of them, especially the good ole boys can be scary. Very scary. Just the other day i went to a patient's house and they had three rebel flags on their front porch and a pickup with hound dogs and probably around six men standing around spittin and chewing. I thought then..."wow i'm glad i don't have a rainbow sticker on my car, cause i don't know what they would have said or done". I'm now rethinking that. Maybe i shouldn't feel like that. Maybe, just maybe, i could have made one of them think... "she's gay?" or "She is pro-gay?" Would it have made a difference? I have no clue.

If all of us did something to be seen and take what comes and deal with it for the "greater good" things may start to change. I'm not talking to the ones that do that already and i thank you that do...more than you know, i thank you. I'm talking about people like me who are scared of what may happen. Maybe it's time i get me that flag for my yard, that sticker for my car. Maybe it's time for me to make sure any event in this community that includes the gay or queer i need to make sure to attend. Maybe it's time for me to go to my first "Pride".

Maybe it is time for a change.

Thanks as always Dreadgeek and thank you Martin Luther King, Jr.

[amiyesiam]

Originally Posted by princessbelle

Wow. As all of your posts are to me for sure and i know many others Dreadgeek, that is so moving.

There are so many people on this site that are far more eloquent with their wording than i. But, i wanted to try to express my humble thoughts on this.

Is it possible to "borrow" Dr. King's beautiful words and try for the same outcome, so to speak? Is it possible that "we" can utilize his intelligence and heart for yet another step for equality of humanity?

Dr. King says "We must march with dignity and stand tall and brave in the face of violence but we must not be violent back to them. That is the price we must be willing to pay. Many of us will be hurt. Some of us will die. But in the end, we must be willing to pay for equality and freedom with our bones and our blood."

Has it come to this? If we do indeed have to "pay a cost" is this it? Do we march? Do we get more involved? Do we as gay/queer people become more invested and make sure we are known?

I think this is important to think about. If the straight world sees no gain in giving us rights, then we can't expect them to just wake up one day and decide to do it. Knowledge is power and knowledge is how we become more civilized as people, more aware of things that don't necessarily mean anything to us until it is shown before us. Until it is introduced to us in a way that makes us all think, rethink and form perhaps different conclusions.

There are many, many people out there that do this already, i know that. There are pride days, there are gay/queer representatives out there that are fighting for our rights. There are organizations such as BV and BN and many more that are making at least some parts of who we are noticed. But, is it enough?

The point i'm trying to make is this....if we ALL need to take part and follow the words of Dr. King to make change possible by being heard and seen, should we then ALL just....do something?

I admit i do nothing to be seen. I do nothing where my neighbors know i'm a gay woman. Would i maybe change my neighbors mind if their nice neighbor started flying a rainbow flag in my yard? Would they and others slowly start changing their minds on election days, the talk at work watercoolers, the doctrines at church? Would being seen and standing proud to them change their minds? Would it show them that we are ...well, their neighbors?

If every gay/queer person did something to make it appearent that we are here and we aren't going away, wouldn't things start to change? I don't know, but that seems to be Dr. King's message or at least part of it.

It's known to many i live in the South. Within one mile of my house is at least 6 churches that i can think of right off the top of my head. I hide. I admit it. I don't show my neighbors or anyone who i am. I tell selected few about my lifestyle. Not because i'm ashamed but because i'm scared. Or...am i ashamed? God, i hope not. On the news here we have KKK events listed, we had a shooting at a gay friendly church not that long ago, the list goes on and on. The people here, some of them, especially the good ole boys can be scary. Very scary. Just the other day i went to a patient's house and they had three rebel flags on their front porch and a pickup with hound dogs and probably around six men standing around spittin and chewing. I thought then..."wow i'm glad i don't have a rainbow sticker on my car, cause i don't know what they would have said or done". I'm now rethinking that. Maybe i shouldn't feel like that. Maybe, just maybe, i could have made one of them think... "she's gay?" or "She is pro-gay?" Would it have made a difference? I have no clue.

If all of us did something to be seen and take what comes and deal with it for the "greater good" things may start to change. I'm not talking to the ones that do that already and i thank you that do...more than you know, i thank you. I'm talking about people like me who are scared of what may happen. Maybe it's time i get me that flag for my yard, that sticker for my car. Maybe it's time for me to make sure any event in this community that includes the gay or queer i need to make sure to attend. Maybe it's time for me to go to my first "Pride".

Maybe it is time for a change.

Thanks as always Dreadgeek and thank you Martin Luther King, Jr.

Awesome post!
Ok, my gut reaction to outing yourself after reading about the place you went for work yesterday is: NO, I don't even know you but the idea of someone who seems so sweet, nice, and kind being hurt by men/people like that scares the HELL out of me. And maybe it is my baggage to unpack that I don't want the nice ones hurt. Maybe if you were some where different. Maybe if you didn't live alone, maybe I don't want to see anyone hurt. But maybe statistically your changes of being hurt are higher.
We have a sticker on our car and I am out everywhere and yes sometimes I feel nervous when we are out and about. But I have never had to face what you faced just doing your job.
Maybe it's just pony time, but this is really really hit me hard emotionally, so I will have to think about this.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by princessbelle

Wow. As all of your posts are to me for sure and i know many others Dreadgeek, that is so moving.

There are so many people on this site that are far more eloquent with their wording than i. But, i wanted to try to express my humble thoughts on this.

Is it possible to "borrow" Dr. King's beautiful words and try for the same outcome, so to speak? Is it possible that "we" can utilize his intelligence and heart for yet another step for equality of humanity?

I think had he lived, Harvey Milk might have grown into that figure. I think he was on the road there. Do I think it will come to that? Perhaps? It may not, though. Consider: Recent polling has shown that a majority of voters, nationally, believe that marriage equality should happen. Ten years ago, that number was much, much smaller. Twenty years ago that number was so low as to make it look impossible. Yet, here we are. We've had two court and one legislative victory. We are starting to get allies where we didn't have them before. Conservative thinkers are starting to get the point and are increasingly writing in *favor* of marriage equality. Why? Because--and here the point must be conceded--marriage equality *is* a fundamentally conservative thing. It does not seek to do away with marriage. The driving force behind it is not to be done with pair-bonding but to simply broaden the legal definition to accommodate what we already know--same-sex couples form enduring pair-bonds and same-sex couples sometimes already have or wish to have children.
That is really rather conservative in that it seeks to reform the system, not radically alter it.

In fact, I think a great deal of the gay rights movement is *not* radical just as most of the civil rights movement was not radical. Certainly the three or four top items on the agenda, currently, are not radical. Those are:

1. Marriage equality
2. Military service
3. Equal employment opportunity and protection from unjust termination
4. Issues of child custody and adoption

Not a very radical list, I admit. However, there is nothing there that I fundamentally disagree with. I know I've left off issues of health care particular vis a vis transpeople but that is because I subsume that into the larger need to reform how healthcare is delivered in this nation. I'm not saying it isn't important, it obviously is. I'm saying that if we solved the healthcare issue by, I don't know, doing what every other industrialized nation does, the issue of healthcare for transgender people would largely take care of itself provided that the healthcare was administered in a fair way (e.g. not excluding gender services *because* they are gender services).

I think that these are all achievable goals. In fact, I know they are because they've been achieved in various other nations to some greater or lesser degree. Others almost certainly disagree and I'm happy to discuss other visions.

Those are concrete and achievable goals and it can be done by law. We cannot and should not aspire to mandate how people feel about queers. ALL we can do is make it illegal to treat queer people as something other than human beings and citizens, fully deserving of the protection of the law. The Civil Rights Movement did not flip a switch and America became a land of racial harmony. It isn't a land of racial harmony *now*. But it did make it illegal to refuse to hire someone because they were black. It did make it illegal to refuse to sell a home to a couple that could afford it because they were black. It did not require proprietors of hotels to love the black family that pulled up to rent a room, it did require them to rent us the room. First the barriers were removed and then the social change happened.

I believe that something similar will happen with queer people over the course of our lifetime. Ironically, I am about the same age as my parents were when the Civil Rights and Voting Rights act were passed. I am a year younger than they were when the SCOTUS handed down the Loving decision. The year after that--the year Bobby Kennedy and Martin were gunned down--my parents voted for the very first time. That was 1968. My mother died Memorial Day of 2007. She missed the election of the first black President by 15 months. The year my mother was born, black people were still routinely being lynched in the South. One lifetime. 1922 - 2007 and she *almost* saw a black POTUS. Almost.

I was born two years before Stonewall. While I would like to live to see 2100, I most likely will shuffle off this mortal coil sometime in the 2050s or 2060s. If I’m lucky I may even see the 2070s or 2080s. In that time, I expect that we will see one or perhaps both of the following: The inauguration of a President who, in her victory speech, says "I want to thank my mothers, Jane and Alice..." and/or the inauguration of a President who, while she takes the oath of office, is accompanied by her wife. I think I may live that long.

Why the Presidency? What's so special about that role? It's because of who the President is. In England, the Prime Minister is the head of government but the Queen is the head of state. In the United States, the President is the head of both the government and head of state. It is this latter role that makes the Presidency significant. The President is the person who, for the time they are in office, embodies the Nation. They are the face of the United States to the world. That is why Barack Obama's election was significant not just for the United States but was a signature event in world cultural history. Why? Because for the first time since there WAS a distinct civilization that could be called the West, a white majority nation elected a non-white person as its embodiment. Having a woman President will be a big deal for us but it will not have significant ramifications outside the United States because other states have already had women as head of either government or state or both. Having a gay President will be a big deal for us because it will mean that America--which is largely not queer--will have decided that a gay man or lesbian will do a good job as the embodiment of the nation.

That's a long road, I know but who would have thought, as Dr. King lay dying on a Memphis balcony, that forty years later another black man would become President? Certainly not my parents.

Cheers
Aj

[dreadgeek]

One other point. PLEASE stay safe. We will have enough martyrs, regrettably. I think that there will come a day, and that day is closer than further away now, when it will be safer to be out where you are. Until then, please stay safe.

cheers
Aj

Originally Posted by princessbelle

Wow. As all of your posts are to me for sure and i know many others Dreadgeek, that is so moving.

There are so many people on this site that are far more eloquent with their wording than i. But, i wanted to try to express my humble thoughts on this.

Is it possible to "borrow" Dr. King's beautiful words and try for the same outcome, so to speak? Is it possible that "we" can utilize his intelligence and heart for yet another step for equality of humanity?

Dr. King says "We must march with dignity and stand tall and brave in the face of violence but we must not be violent back to them. That is the price we must be willing to pay. Many of us will be hurt. Some of us will die. But in the end, we must be willing to pay for equality and freedom with our bones and our blood."

Has it come to this? If we do indeed have to "pay a cost" is this it? Do we march? Do we get more involved? Do we as gay/queer people become more invested and make sure we are known?

I think this is important to think about. If the straight world sees no gain in giving us rights, then we can't expect them to just wake up one day and decide to do it. Knowledge is power and knowledge is how we become more civilized as people, more aware of things that don't necessarily mean anything to us until it is shown before us. Until it is introduced to us in a way that makes us all think, rethink and form perhaps different conclusions.

There are many, many people out there that do this already, i know that. There are pride days, there are gay/queer representatives out there that are fighting for our rights. There are organizations such as BV and BN and many more that are making at least some parts of who we are noticed. But, is it enough?

The point i'm trying to make is this....if we ALL need to take part and follow the words of Dr. King to make change possible by being heard and seen, should we then ALL just....do something?

I admit i do nothing to be seen. I do nothing where my neighbors know i'm a gay woman. Would i maybe change my neighbors mind if their nice neighbor started flying a rainbow flag in my yard? Would they and others slowly start changing their minds on election days, the talk at work watercoolers, the doctrines at church? Would being seen and standing proud to them change their minds? Would it show them that we are ...well, their neighbors?

If every gay/queer person did something to make it appearent that we are here and we aren't going away, wouldn't things start to change? I don't know, but that seems to be Dr. King's message or at least part of it.

It's known to many i live in the South. Within one mile of my house is at least 6 churches that i can think of right off the top of my head. I hide. I admit it. I don't show my neighbors or anyone who i am. I tell selected few about my lifestyle. Not because i'm ashamed but because i'm scared. Or...am i ashamed? God, i hope not. On the news here we have KKK events listed, we had a shooting at a gay friendly church not that long ago, the list goes on and on. The people here, some of them, especially the good ole boys can be scary. Very scary. Just the other day i went to a patient's house and they had three rebel flags on their front porch and a pickup with hound dogs and probably around six men standing around spittin and chewing. I thought then..."wow i'm glad i don't have a rainbow sticker on my car, cause i don't know what they would have said or done". I'm now rethinking that. Maybe i shouldn't feel like that. Maybe, just maybe, i could have made one of them think... "she's gay?" or "She is pro-gay?" Would it have made a difference? I have no clue.

If all of us did something to be seen and take what comes and deal with it for the "greater good" things may start to change. I'm not talking to the ones that do that already and i thank you that do...more than you know, i thank you. I'm talking about people like me who are scared of what may happen. Maybe it's time i get me that flag for my yard, that sticker for my car. Maybe it's time for me to make sure any event in this community that includes the gay or queer i need to make sure to attend. Maybe it's time for me to go to my first "Pride".

Maybe it is time for a change.

Thanks as always Dreadgeek and thank you Martin Luther King, Jr.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by princessbelle

I admit i do nothing to be seen. I do nothing where my neighbors know i'm a gay woman. Would i maybe change my neighbors mind if their nice neighbor started flying a rainbow flag in my yard? Would they and others slowly start changing their minds on election days, the talk at work watercoolers, the doctrines at church? Would being seen and standing proud to them change their minds? Would it show them that we are ...well, their neighbors?

Per some such study (like I remember!), the degree of a person's homophobia drops each time they meet another gay person/each time they find out someone they know is gay. There is a direct correlation. So, yes, it makes a difference.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by June

Q: What price am I willing to pay for the same rights as heterosexual people?

A: My taxes at the same rate as they pay in the same income bracket.

Period.

June:

But that's not really the *kind* of cost I'm talking about. The kind of cost I'm trying to drive at here is what compromise are you willing to give? In my read of the Civil Rights Movement, the black community made a bargain with the majority population. We will play by the rules, go to school, work hard, etc. and in *return* we expect to be treated as citizens and people. We'll do our part if you lot will do yours. The tax issue isn't really a trade-off. WHEN our marriages are legally recognized in all states--and that will happen--we'll be obliged to pay taxes at the same rate so that's not really a *cost*. Even if it were the kind of cost I was talking about, I'm not sure that would be enough to sweeten the pot for a straight person standing on the sidelines.

What do we put on the table that will appeal to the heterosexual majority. Our demands are pretty straightforward, treat us as people and citizens. My question is what are we, as queer people, willing to give for that? Like I keep saying, there's always costs and as a community we have ignored costs for far too long.

Cheers
Aj

[Linus]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

So, I'm curious about something. Let's stipulate that the goal is acceptance. Let's also stipulate that acceptance is something we are going to have to convince people of (in other words, we're not going to be able to use either the law or the Jedi mind trick to gain acceptance). The minute we're talking about convincing people we're talking about bargaining and the minute we're talking about bargaining, we have to talk cost.

<snipped solely for beverity and enough characters for me>

What are we willing to pay with for acceptance and how will we know when we have finally crossed into the Promised Land?

Cheers
Aj

When ever I read discussions like this, I'm reminded of a game that my uncle and some of his close friends created in the days of BBSes (late 80s/early 90s) called Pyroto Mountain. The goal of the game was to get to the top of the mountain and establish a "gov't" of sorts. It was never officially stated as a social-economic study but worked out to that. One of the most telling things that my uncle imparted on me was that it's hard to change people's minds without major changes (e.g., the Middle East in general but specifically the history between Palestinians and Israel, et al).

To me, in many ways, this is often what it feels like for the Queer community and the rest of North America (I specify this since there is more than the US on this continent and the Queer community faces challenges in both Canada and Mexico). That said, I don't know if there is a specific thing that is uniform for each group as to what we will sacrifice. For example, this week I had a Mormon in my class. Now, I could have gone off on their stance in regards to Prop 8 but it would neither be professional nor would it have created a good stance. I did freely talk (when not teaching and it was more a relaxed non-topic discussion) about going to Pride marches and such. And even asked him about his beliefs and Mormon principles and the like. It was an interesting discussion. Now I don't know how he personally felt about gay marriage and such but based on my discussion I believe he was probably more open than what his "leaders" would be.

For me, acknowledging that the "other" side (or non-Queer side) is just as human as the rest of us. And that the "leaders" that speak for them aren't necessarily true of what the individuals believe. Respect for their religion/beliefs and right to exist is not something I would considering "paying" for but as concept of good moral values -- the idea of treating others as I would expect to be treated and regardless of what they say or do. Does that mean I bend over? No. But neither does it mean that I will react as they do.

So this still makes me wonder as to what we pay to get acceptance. In Canada, it was patience and support of the general population. And even though it's written into law that same-sex marriage is legal federally, it doesn't preclude others from accepting us. When we make Queer lives (not lifestyle but lives) as a normal part of society, it is, IMO, more likely to be accepted. But that takes time and effort to do the little "fights" in the more common social aspects of life. It means being brave enough to put pictures of your family at your work, talking about your work like others talk about their husbands/wives, etc. Is it easy? No.

Now, as I type this, part of me thinks that there are differences in acceptance in society of various parts of the Queer community. It's not just gays and lesbians, who are the most prominent part of the community. But also those that challenge the gender norms of what is accepted in society. As much as the Queer community might have similar goals, there are stark differences as to need and likely acceptance at this point, IMO. And I think that would change what we're willing to "pay" for acceptance. (I don't know if I'm being clear on this and I may try later to re-iterate better what I think about this). This makes me think that what different parts of the Queer community consider as acceptable to give up would be different between different parts. I don't know if we have just one thing that is uniform for all of the Queer community.

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

What are we willing to pay with for acceptance and how will we know when we have finally crossed into the Promised Land?

Cheers
Aj

Brilliant question! Whether or not I realize it, each day I open my eyes and go into the world, I must make the decision "at what cost." I do not "pass." And "passing" is not the objective of many Trans people. I lead a very open life. I am contiually talking with people, coworkers, people in my spiritual community, young people, that come to me with their questions about "Queerness." (I always make it clear that what I say is my experience and not all queers feel and think the same as I do.) The cost is a loss of personal privacy that could make for a vulnerbility that can feel overwhelming and/or put me in harms way. It's worth it, to me.

I will know I have reached the "Promised Land" when I hold respect, acceptance and love for those I once feared and held contempt for.

[betenoire]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

What are we willing to pay with for acceptance

How I pay:

1 - By not acting like a horses ass.

2 - By not screaming that somebody must be a homophobe every time they don't like me (maybe I'm just not likeable, that's possible. or maybe I did something to that person unintentionally.) There will be people who don't like me because I'm Queer. Ditto there will be people who don't like me for some other reason. Since I'm not psychic I have no way of knowing which it is unless they come right out and say it - so I'm not doing me or any other Queer any favours by screaming about homophobia every time something goes wrong.

True story: I live in kind of a shitty neighborhood, for Canada. What I mean by that is while there isn't a lot of violent crime going on where I'm living, there is a TONNE of property crime. Lots of theft. When my mail or my bike gets stolen (the mail happens all the time, the bike happened once and I never got another one because why bother?) Nick immediately jumps to "They are harassing you because they hate gay people!" which is just super crazy, since we have no way of knowing who the "they" in the situation are, let alone what their motivation is.

3 - By going out of my way to be the kind of person that people tend to like, even when I don't feel like it. I smile at people strangers when I pass them on the street and I say hello and stop for small-talk with acquaintances. I run errands for the guy on the 1st floor who is ill. When other people from my building are sitting around in lawnchairs out front I pull up a chair and hang out for a bit. I give up my seat on the bus for elderly people, women with small children, people with a disability, and anybody who looks like they are tired and would rather not stand up. I help people with heaps of groceries get their groceries on and off the bus. I try to keep the noise in my apartment to a minimum. If it's late at night I turn the teevee down real low and turn on closed captioning. I pay my rent on time. And I never go into the express line at the grocery store unless I really DO have 10 items or less.

4 - By being who I am but not making a huge deal out of it. I'm not confrontational around the Queer stuff. If I'm in line at the coffee shop and someone is shit talking gay people I approach them with a SMILE and ask them to please rethink who might be listening - I never yell or call names or act like a jackass about it. You'll never catch me in a teeshirt that says "Pussy is rad!" or "I am going to fuck all of your girlfriends!" or anything like that.

and how will we know when we have finally crossed into the Promised Land?

There is no Promised Land. People are what they are and we just are not evolved enough as a species to love and respect everybody - we never will be. Some individuals are pretty good at it...but as a species? It just isn't going to happen.

I'm Canadian, as most people know. So I'm pretty freaking lucky. It's illegal to discriminate against me for my "sexual orientation" (or whatever you want to call it.) I can marry whoever I want. I can work wherever I want. I can live wherever I want. I can shop wherever I want. If we can ever get that bill to add language around not discriminating against people who are transsexual added to our Charter of Rights and Freedoms passed I will be happy as a freaking clam.

Equal rights and protections is good enough for me. But as far as how individual people feel about the Queer "community" goes - the people who love us are just gravy. The people who hate us aren't especially shocking and are not going to ruin my buzz.

[dreadgeek]

Betenoire:

My grandmother used to say "be a better person than you have any right to be". I was an adult before I understood what she meant. What you describe below, though, is a near Platonic example of my understanding of it. It means recognizing you have a legitimate gripe, something that could put one in the mind of "damn you, society, I'm gonna get mine if I have to walk all over you to get it!" and then NOT walking all over society but flying high above it. Being not just a candle in the dark but a burning star.

My grandmother would say it and she lived it. If ever someone had a legitimate gripe, it was my grandmother. Her husband was lynched by the Klan, her eldest son was run down and had his leg shattered by some boys from town. She worked as a domestic and then at an orphanage. She was oppressed in that special way that a black woman, born at the beginning of the 20th century and living until the 1980s could be oppressed. Yet, she was kind and gracious to everyone I ever saw her interact with. She rarely had a harsh word and I never saw her take a spiteful action or speak a nasty word about *anyone*. Even people she didn't really like.

Your method of payment is much like mine.

Cheers
Adrienne

Originally Posted by betenoire

How I pay:

1 - By not acting like a horses ass.

2 - By not screaming that somebody must be a homophobe every time they don't like me (maybe I'm just not likeable, that's possible. or maybe I did something to that person unintentionally.) There will be people who don't like me because I'm Queer. Ditto there will be people who don't like me for some other reason. Since I'm not psychic I have no way of knowing which it is unless they come right out and say it - so I'm not doing me or any other Queer any favours by screaming about homophobia every time something goes wrong.

True story: I live in kind of a shitty neighborhood, for Canada. What I mean by that is while there isn't a lot of violent crime going on where I'm living, there is a TONNE of property crime. Lots of theft. When my mail or my bike gets stolen (the mail happens all the time, the bike happened once and I never got another one because why bother?) Nick immediately jumps to "They are harassing you because they hate gay people!" which is just super crazy, since we have no way of knowing who the "they" in the situation are, let alone what their motivation is.

3 - By going out of my way to be the kind of person that people tend to like, even when I don't feel like it. I smile at people strangers when I pass them on the street and I say hello and stop for small-talk with acquaintances. I run errands for the guy on the 1st floor who is ill. When other people from my building are sitting around in lawnchairs out front I pull up a chair and hang out for a bit. I give up my seat on the bus for elderly people, women with small children, people with a disability, and anybody who looks like they are tired and would rather not stand up. I help people with heaps of groceries get their groceries on and off the bus. I try to keep the noise in my apartment to a minimum. If it's late at night I turn the teevee down real low and turn on closed captioning. I pay my rent on time. And I never go into the express line at the grocery store unless I really DO have 10 items or less.

4 - By being who I am but not making a huge deal out of it. I'm not confrontational around the Queer stuff. If I'm in line at the coffee shop and someone is shit talking gay people I approach them with a SMILE and ask them to please rethink who might be listening - I never yell or call names or act like a jackass about it. You'll never catch me in a teeshirt that says "Pussy is rad!" or "I am going to fuck all of your girlfriends!" or anything like that.



There is no Promised Land. People are what they are and we just are not evolved enough as a species to love and respect everybody - we never will be. Some individuals are pretty good at it...but as a species? It just isn't going to happen.

I'm Canadian, as most people know. So I'm pretty freaking lucky. It's illegal to discriminate against me for my "sexual orientation" (or whatever you want to call it.) I can marry whoever I want. I can work wherever I want. I can live wherever I want. I can shop wherever I want. If we can ever get that bill to add language around not discriminating against people who are transsexual added to our Charter of Rights and Freedoms passed I will be happy as a freaking clam.

Equal rights and protections is good enough for me. But as far as how individual people feel about the Queer "community" goes - the people who love us are just gravy. The people who hate us aren't especially shocking and are not going to ruin my buzz.