Breaking the Spell: Rethinking queer community

[SecretAgentMa'am]

Originally Posted by Corkey

I don't need to convince any one of my right to be, my right to marry my right to fight for my country, I just do it.

This doesn't actually make any sense, though. Regardless of how you choose to live your life, you don't currently have the right to legally marry in the US. Even if you live in a state with marriage rights, your marriage still isn't federally recognized. You don't just magically have that right because you say so. If it worked that way, there would be no reason to have this conversation. You can have a relationship that you feel is a marriage, you can have a ceremony, but that doesn't get you all the benefits of a legal marriage. That's what this conversation is about.

[Corkey]

Actually we were married legally in Canada. I don't care one way or the other, if it doesn't make any since to you, that isn't my goal. I'm not going to live my life in fear or in what ifs', that is a total waste of energy. Go convince the Idiot party that you want your rights, they don't care about you, they don't care about me, the only thing they care about is their racist, sexist, classist small minded grasp of their own small patch of Americana.

Trust me I've been fighting this war longer than you've been alive.

[SecretAgentMa'am]

Originally Posted by Corkey

Actually we were married legally in Canada. I don't care one way or the other, if it doesn't make any since to you, that isn't my goal. I'm not going to live my life in fear or in what ifs', that is a total waste of energy. Go convince the Idiot party that you want your rights, they don't care about you, they don't care about me, the only thing they care about is their racist, sexist, classist small minded grasp of their own small patch of Americana.

Trust me I've been fighting this war longer than you've been alive.

Congratulations. I'm talking about in the US. If you don't live in the US, then what are we arguing about? The conversation is about getting marriage rights IN THE US.

That last bit is utterly fascinating since you have no idea how old I am.

[atomiczombie]

Originally Posted by Corkey

Actually we were married legally in Canada. I don't care one way or the other, if it doesn't make any since to you, that isn't my goal. I'm not going to live my life in fear or in what ifs', that is a total waste of energy. Go convince the Idiot party that you want your rights, they don't care about you, they don't care about me, the only thing they care about is their racist, sexist, classist small minded grasp of their own small patch of Americana.

Trust me I've been fighting this war longer than you've been alive.

So, is your answer just to stop the fight? Do you feel it's a fight that will never be won? I'm just asking for clarity here.

[Corkey]

I live in the US, and Drew, fighting idiots doesn't get us anywhere, there are no sane republicans left to argue with.

[SecretAgentMa'am]

Originally Posted by Corkey

I live in the US, and Drew, fighting idiots doesn't get us anywhere, there are no sane republicans left to argue with.

Okay, then my point stands. You're married in Canada, but you live in the US. That means you don't get the benefits that come with marriage. In the place where you live, you marriage is not recognized as valid, and wishing doesn't make it so. So where does that leave us?

[atomiczombie]

Originally Posted by Corkey

I live in the US, and Drew, fighting idiots doesn't get us anywhere, there are no sane republicans left to argue with.

I agree that the republican tea-party idiots won't ever be swayed. But they are a small minority of the voting public. They get lots of press because of their crazy antics, and republican politicians have to cowtow to them if they want to be elected or stay in office. But the vast majority of people can be swayed if we work hard to educate them. We have to counter the voices of the extreme right. They scream the loudest so they get all the press. We need to bring another voice to the discussion. Do you feel that that is a fight worth fighting?

[Toughy]

I forgot.............

The greatest enemy of all enemies..........the one that must be overcome at all costs......

violence

What a vast difference there is between the barbarism that precedes culture and the barbarism that follows it.
-- Friedrich Hebbel

the violence in my own mind is my greatest enemy

[citybutch]

I agree with you that they are cow-towed to.... but the question is why? Take a look at the Koch brothers (and Karl Rove for that matter) who fund the Tea Party. With the amount of money they have, the commitment to eliminate taxes for the super wealthy (and I am not talking about the rich because $250,000 income for a small business owner is an WHOLE other topic), and time time time on their hands to dig their heels in deeper to accomplish what they want to. I am hoping we can combat this... With corporations as "persons" now, we are going to have a tough road.

Take the recall in Wisconsin for example.. and the variance in funding between the dems and the repubs:

http://www.thedailypage.com/daily/ar...?article=34206

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-0...e-recalls.html

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

I agree that the republican tea-party idiots won't ever be swayed. But they are a small minority of the voting public. They get lots of press because of their crazy antics, and republican politicians have to cowtow to them if they want to be elected or stay in office. But the vast majority of people can be swayed if we work hard to educate them. We have to counter the voices of the extreme right. They scream the loudest so they get all the press. We need to bring another voice to the discussion. Do you feel that that is a fight worth fighting?

[dreadgeek]

Corkey:

Okay, if you don't care what they think then how do you get them to actually fold us into the circle of people called 'citizen'. I'm not a Canadian citizen and neither is my wife so we can't get married in Canada. The US government isn't obliged to acknowledge a marriage done in Canada.

I'm not talking about begging, Corkey. I'm talking about being pragmatic because, at the end of the day, we have to live in the same country as the people who hate us. They are not going away. We can't make them go away and they overwhelm us in sheer numbers. So we have to convince the vast middle, those people who are not actively anti-gay, that we have the better case. That is NOT begging.

We do not have the numbers to simply win by decree. We cannot *make* the majority do *anything* they don't want to do. Yes, in an ideal world, we would just say this WILL BE and it would become so. We don't live there. We can't even maneuver an absolute dictator into power on our behalf. So we have to win through process. We have to get enough people who are not gay on our side that the social pressure to change the law will be too much to ignore. We are not going to do that by grabbing them by the collar and screaming "I don't give a damn about you or what you think, now you WILL make marriage legal between same-sex couples!" Straight people do not HAVE to change the law. The law, as stands, works well-enough for their needs. It benefits straight people very little to expand the definition of marriage. If it were important enough to straight people for same-sex couples to get married the law would already be that way. So we have to convince a majority, that feels no widespread pain over our lack of rights, to somehow see our cause as a matter of justice. We have to win them over.

That is not begging, Corkey, that is the political process. What other choice do we have other than the political process? We can't break away. We can't all just leave. We shouldn't *have* to leave. We can't get our way by sheer number of our votes alone. We do not have the numbers to take over the government by either democratic or non-democratic means. I also do not think we should succumb to the temptation to use non-democratic means--meaning, we can't just outlaw homophobia. We must not do that. We must never outlaw *ideas*. So given all of that, what other choice do we have but to go to the majority, present our case, show how the opposition is the same crowd it has *always* been, and that just as the cause of my parent's generation was righteous so is our cause righteous?

Living in an open, democratic society means learning to get one's way by convincing 50% + 1 of your fellow citizens to side with you to change the laws. It means convincing the media that your cause is worthy of covering you. It is convincing lawmakers to champion your cause, even if they are not one of you. It is convincing the clergy to side with you and to use their pulpit's as a place to rally people to your cause. Politics is the art of compromise in order to achieve the possible. Despite what the Republicans in Congress *believe* about negotiation, it does not involve the other side capitulating abjectly. That means we have to understand what the costs of change are. None of that is negotiating anything away or begging for anything. It is trying to figure out how to achieve a just goal through the processes of our country.

Cheers
Aj

Originally Posted by Corkey

Actually we were married legally in Canada. I don't care one way or the other, if it doesn't make any since to you, that isn't my goal. I'm not going to live my life in fear or in what ifs', that is a total waste of energy. Go convince the Idiot party that you want your rights, they don't care about you, they don't care about me, the only thing they care about is their racist, sexist, classist small minded grasp of their own small patch of Americana.

Trust me I've been fighting this war longer than you've been alive.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

Corkey:

Okay, if you don't care what they think then how do you get them to actually fold us into the circle of people called 'citizen'. I'm not a Canadian citizen and neither is my wife so we can't get married in Canada. The US government isn't obliged to acknowledge a marriage done in Canada.

I'm not talking about begging, Corkey. I'm talking about being pragmatic because, at the end of the day, we have to live in the same country as the people who hate us. They are not going away. We can't make them go away and they overwhelm us in sheer numbers. So we have to convince the vast middle, those people who are not actively anti-gay, that we have the better case. That is NOT begging.

We do not have the numbers to simply win by decree. We cannot *make* the majority do *anything* they don't want to do. Yes, in an ideal world, we would just say this WILL BE and it would become so. We don't live there. We can't even maneuver an absolute dictator into power on our behalf. So we have to win through process. We have to get enough people who are not gay on our side that the social pressure to change the law will be too much to ignore. We are not going to do that by grabbing them by the collar and screaming "I don't give a damn about you or what you think, now you WILL make marriage legal between same-sex couples!" Straight people do not HAVE to change the law. The law, as stands, works well-enough for their needs. It benefits straight people very little to expand the definition of marriage. If it were important enough to straight people for same-sex couples to get married the law would already be that way. So we have to convince a majority, that feels no widespread pain over our lack of rights, to somehow see our cause as a matter of justice. We have to win them over.

That is not begging, Corkey, that is the political process. What other choice do we have other than the political process? We can't break away. We can't all just leave. We shouldn't *have* to leave. We can't get our way by sheer number of our votes alone. We do not have the numbers to take over the government by either democratic or non-democratic means. I also do not think we should succumb to the temptation to use non-democratic means--meaning, we can't just outlaw homophobia. We must not do that. We must never outlaw *ideas*. So given all of that, what other choice do we have but to go to the majority, present our case, show how the opposition is the same crowd it has *always* been, and that just as the cause of my parent's generation was righteous so is our cause righteous?

Living in an open, democratic society means learning to get one's way by convincing 50% + 1 of your fellow citizens to side with you to change the laws. It means convincing the media that your cause is worthy of covering you. It is convincing lawmakers to champion your cause, even if they are not one of you. It is convincing the clergy to side with you and to use their pulpit's as a place to rally people to your cause. Politics is the art of compromise in order to achieve the possible. Despite what the Republicans in Congress *believe* about negotiation, it does not involve the other side capitulating abjectly. That means we have to understand what the costs of change are. None of that is negotiating anything away or begging for anything. It is trying to figure out how to achieve a just goal through the processes of our country.

Cheers
Aj

You don't have to be a citizen of Canada to get married in Canada. You would have to live there for 6 month however to get a divorce. It isn't up to me to brow beat people who because of their false beliefs cannot understand reason when it hits them squarely in the face. There is NO reasoning with these people. The best I can do is to live my life as a citizen and show people who I am by the good things I do around the place I live. That more than marching, fighting or getting in their face will open more doors than any violence ever could. I do what I can with voting, petition signing, calling and generally getting in my Rep's face, who BTW is a tea parter and an ass. More and more North Americans are coming around and opening their eyes and ears, problem isn't with the population, it's with the dumbf&%*s in Washington. Get rid of Cantor, Bohnnner and Mitchell, and we may just get our country back. I can't do that alone.