OCCUPY WALL STREET

[Cin]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

There are more efficient and better defensible ways to assure that the common person is treated as an equal in a society run by bankers and politicians. I still maintain that morality is not the way to attain that goal, even though one's first reaction is to think that it is a matter of morality. If it came down to my own ethics, then yes I would feel that these people who oppress need to adopt a similar idea of equality and basic respect as myself. But it's very difficult to make any change or make an air-tight argument using a term that is subjectively defined. And I still maintain that if we want long term progress for society, we need to step away from immutable ideologies/morality, and take a step forward into a more analytical age where our "beliefs" are constantly mutating.

You know it’s not so much that I don’t agree with you to a point. It’s more that the majority of people will not, and might even misunderstand what you are saying. And when people don’t understand something or if it seems too different they stop listening. When you are trying to stimulate change I think it is important to have people listen to you. Morality is a language that people understand. It’s not like the danger inherent in that is lost on me. I just think it might be easier to wrest morality from the claws of religion than to ignore the importance of it to a large percentage of the population.

If I want someone to hear me I will speak in a language they understand. If I want someone to understand what I am doing I will use tools with which they are familiar. Morality is important to most people. Statistics show that 70% of the US population wants a president who is moral. Until we can separate morality from religion, in the eyes of most people, moral also means religious. Religious morality is like the bizarro superman of morality. This kind of thing can’t just be ignored (as much as I wish it could.) It needs to be addressed in some acceptable way.

Secular morality is based on logic and reason rather than supernatural revelation. So clearly I’m not saying that logic and education are wrong answers. I’m just saying they are both as open to perversion as morality, especially since in many ways they are the same thing as secular morality. Logic can easily be perverted to meet the needs of fanatics. Education, as important and as useful as it is, will not change the minds of the average religious zealot. We can’t even get them to accept, regardless of all the evidence to the contrary, that the earth is older than 6,000 years. There are some, a great many in fact, who, despite all the scientific proof available showing just the opposite, believe that evolution is wrong. No amount of logic or education is going to change that. But for the sake of the rest of that 70% who believe morals are a measure of a leader we cannot leave morality in the hands of people who refute logic and pervert reason.

As far as equality I don’t think I said anything about equality. I said equity. Equity is the quality of being fair and impartial: "equity of treatment". Which is different from equality which is correspondence in quantity, degree, value, rank, or ability. There are some ways in which I believe we need to be treated equally of course. But equal in only some ways and to a certain degree because surely logic clearly supports the reality that we certainly are not all equal in all ways.

However, we all deserve equity of treatment. I think that is a moral measure that is not subjective. I believe we need to judge the morality of a belief, a choice, a decision, or a law by how well it adheres to the principles of justice and equity for every individual. You said you believed that “people like Breivik did not need to be incarcerated to the maximum because of morality but because they are a danger to the progress of society which they inhabit.” I think being dangerous to the progress of society is a moral issue. I believe acting in such a way as to be a danger to the progress of society is not a sound moral decision. It is adversely affecting the moral principles of justice and equity for every individual. There are consequences to taking an action that infringes on the rights of another. There are social contracts and you are right there are consequences for breaking them that end in less dignity and less respect for individuals who do engage in actions that are dangerous to the progress of the society they inhabit. But even in this there needs to be a social contract that is humane.

Morality based on equity of treatment for all would not be subjective. Hopefully it would negate any need to define words like dignity, respect and reverence for humanity. It is just an equity of treatment that everyone would like for themselves. If this kind of secular morality were reality then every decision would be reached based on equity and every decision, every choice you make or you support would be one you would be comfortable having done to you and your loved ones.

I doubt the majority of people are comfortable leaving morality out of the conversation when talking about social change. If we, who want to drive change in the direction of logic and reason, the direction of long term progress for society, leave morality out of our discourse, if we concede morality is the language of the opposition, then it will appear to others it is because we do not understand the language. That I believe is doing ourselves a deeply disturbing and dangerous disservice. We do understand the language of morality. We just don’t care for the way it is being spoken at this time. We could help change that.

[Apocalipstic]

Hell, close the IRS completely.

[Corkey]

Make the IRS code one page, no more loopholes. Pay income tax on a simplified formula and make companies pay their fair share. Seems like a no brainer, except the ones without brains are the ones we have in office.

[Corkey]

Dear Mr.,
Thank you for contacting me about campaign finance reform. I appreciate hearing from you.

As you may know, the U.S. Supreme Court, in a ruling in Citizens United v. Federal Election Commission, overturned a federal ban on independent political advocacy by corporations and unions. I understand your concerns regarding this decision and political activities by outside groups and businesses. That said, the Supreme Court has long upheld that political speech, including the funding thereof, is protected by the First Amendment and is an integral part of our constitutional democracy. It is important that Congress be mindful of these constitutional principles, although I understand your concerns about this issue. Please be assured that I will keep your views in mind as Congress continues reviewing changes to campaign finance laws.

Thank you again for your correspondence. Please do not hesitate to contact me in the future if I can be of assistance.

Sincerely,



Pat Toomey
U.S. Senator, Pennsylvania


This idiot just doesn't get it.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Latinos and Blacks Missing in Occupy Wall Street


José Fernando López

Editor in Chief, PODER Magazine


Days before the arrest of 700 people in the Brooklyn Bridge in New York, I read in the El Pais newspaper, from Spain, an article about the Occupy Wall Street movement. Until the arrest, except for acknowledging certain fleeting appearances on record, such as the one from Michael Moore or Susan Sarandon, newspapers in this country had not given much importance to the protests taking place in the heart of Manhattan. El Pais, however, has followed the issue with interest from the beginning (mid-September), for its resemblance to the movement of the Indignados (Indignants) that shook Spain a few months ago.

In the El Pais article, my attention was caught by a quote from Gonzalo Venegas, a musician from the Bronx, who was going for the first time to the Zuccotti Park, the center of the protest given the police barrier of Wall Street. "Here," said Venegas, "Latinos and blacks are missing." Maybe, I said to myself while reading such a blunt assertion, it's because the movement has nothing to do with them. But looking more closely at the reasons for the protest, it became clear that it did.

The United States is experiencing the worst economic crisis of the last eighty years, due largely in part to the greed of banks and the lack of regulation of the financial system. And that crisis has not only swept away millions of jobs, but threatens to reduce social benefits -- in addition to those that lost their homes after the bursting of the housing bubble.

The responsibility for the financial system has been pointed out by tens of experts. But none have highlighted that responsibility as the government itself, which after handing out millions of dollars belonging to the taxpayers to the banks -- to avoid a debacle -- decided to sue 17 of them for having "cheated," according to them, state agencies Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac by selling toxic mortgages to them.

According to an article in The Wall Street Journal, the Federal Housing Finance Agency, which was the official agency that brought the lawsuit, "said the mortgage-backed securities were sold to Fannie and Freddie based on documents that 'contained misstatements and omissions of material facts concerning the quality of the underlying mortgage loans, the creditworthiness of the Borrowers, and the practices used to originate such loan'."

It is no secret that the toxic mortgages -- and the practices followed to originate the loans -- are a great part of the origin of the crisis, and it is against these practices, among others, that the organizers of Occupy Wall Street protest. Well, according to a recent study by the Pew Research Center, Hispanics and blacks are among the groups most affected by the mortgage crisis.

According to the study, "in percentage terms, the bursting of the housing market bubble in 2006 and the recession that followed from late 2007 to mid-2009 took a far greater toll on the wealth of minorities than on whites. From 2005 to 2009, inflation-adjusted median wealth fell by 66% among Hispanic households and 53% among black households, compared with just 16% among white households". And "about a third of black (35%) and Hispanic (31%) households had zero or negative net worth in 2009, compared with 15% of white households".
I'm not sure that a protest movement like Occupy Wall Street is the best way to prevent this sort of thing from happening again. But after analyzing the causes for the protest and the impact the crisis has had on minorities, I understood Venegas' phrase better. For Hispanics living in the United States, and for those seeking to capture their vote in the upcoming elections, there are few issues that should be as important than the issue of migration.

[atomiczombie]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Latinos and Blacks Missing in Occupy Wall Street


José Fernando López

Editor in Chief, PODER Magazine


Days before the arrest of 700 people in the Brooklyn Bridge in New York, I read in the El Pais newspaper, from Spain, an article about the Occupy Wall Street movement. Until the arrest, except for acknowledging certain fleeting appearances on record, such as the one from Michael Moore or Susan Sarandon, newspapers in this country had not given much importance to the protests taking place in the heart of Manhattan. El Pais, however, has followed the issue with interest from the beginning (mid-September), for its resemblance to the movement of the Indignados (Indignants) that shook Spain a few months ago.

In the El Pais article, my attention was caught by a quote from Gonzalo Venegas, a musician from the Bronx, who was going for the first time to the Zuccotti Park, the center of the protest given the police barrier of Wall Street. "Here," said Venegas, "Latinos and blacks are missing." Maybe, I said to myself while reading such a blunt assertion, it's because the movement has nothing to do with them. But looking more closely at the reasons for the protest, it became clear that it did.

The United States is experiencing the worst economic crisis of the last eighty years, due largely in part to the greed of banks and the lack of regulation of the financial system. And that crisis has not only swept away millions of jobs, but threatens to reduce social benefits -- in addition to those that lost their homes after the bursting of the housing bubble.

The responsibility for the financial system has been pointed out by tens of experts. But none have highlighted that responsibility as the government itself, which after handing out millions of dollars belonging to the taxpayers to the banks -- to avoid a debacle -- decided to sue 17 of them for having "cheated," according to them, state agencies Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac by selling toxic mortgages to them.

According to an article in The Wall Street Journal, the Federal Housing Finance Agency, which was the official agency that brought the lawsuit, "said the mortgage-backed securities were sold to Fannie and Freddie based on documents that 'contained misstatements and omissions of material facts concerning the quality of the underlying mortgage loans, the creditworthiness of the Borrowers, and the practices used to originate such loan'."

It is no secret that the toxic mortgages -- and the practices followed to originate the loans -- are a great part of the origin of the crisis, and it is against these practices, among others, that the organizers of Occupy Wall Street protest. Well, according to a recent study by the Pew Research Center, Hispanics and blacks are among the groups most affected by the mortgage crisis.

According to the study, "in percentage terms, the bursting of the housing market bubble in 2006 and the recession that followed from late 2007 to mid-2009 took a far greater toll on the wealth of minorities than on whites. From 2005 to 2009, inflation-adjusted median wealth fell by 66% among Hispanic households and 53% among black households, compared with just 16% among white households". And "about a third of black (35%) and Hispanic (31%) households had zero or negative net worth in 2009, compared with 15% of white households".
I'm not sure that a protest movement like Occupy Wall Street is the best way to prevent this sort of thing from happening again. But after analyzing the causes for the protest and the impact the crisis has had on minorities, I understood Venegas' phrase better. For Hispanics living in the United States, and for those seeking to capture their vote in the upcoming elections, there are few issues that should be as important than the issue of migration.

What do you think accounts for the low black and latino turnout at these rallies?

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

What do you think accounts for the low black and latino turnout at these rallies?

This is "my" personal opinion as to why, if large groups of Latinos and Black gathered in large numbers to "protest" I feel it would be seen differently.. I also believe that this information is not being passed to people who do not have access like we do and don't know that these kinds of gatherings are going on, add economic status and you can count a lot of peoples voices. My hopes this spreads so all towns not just big citties and all peoples are being educated on the chance to use their voices too.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

What do you think accounts for the low black and latino turnout at these rallies?

This ineresting as I have read a couple of blubs to the contrary. In SF, those that have gathered have been represented by POC quite clearly. Maybe because CA is a border state to Mexico? Or, is it just a SF thing?

The article Snow posted certainly points to how the mortgage lending practices and ensuing foreclosure rates hit POC in much higher numbers than whites.

It also can be atributed to the fact that historically, social movements tend to begin among white, middle class people. In the past this has been due to a very simple factor- they could have more "leisure" time. Although, since the recession has crossed economic and racial lines and is continuing to do so, my guess is that this social movement will keep climbing in numbers of POC and run across class status in ways we may have never seen before.

I wonder if one of the main reasons there are less Latinos involved in public demomstrations is also in play. Fear of harrassment about legal status. I was thinking earlier today after looking at the site that has the schedule of these demonstrations all over the US about cities in AZ and other states that have passed legislation about police being able to just demand documents from people. How the hell will Latinos, many of whom have had foreclosures, feel about participating?

It may very well be that since more and more white, middle-class people are feeling the effects of long term unemployment in much higher numbers and also would be among higher percentages of people that have bank accounts and credit cards as well as mortgages, etc. People that suffer with chronic unemployment and have been dealing with the poverty level in their lives don't use banks (usually can't even get an account due to poor credit scores) or have credit cards. If they do, they are of the type that the person fills themselves and is really not an extension of credit (the pre-paid cards).

My hope is that this will be a movement in which all that are angry with how people are being taken advantaged of by big banks and public corporations can join together and not get diverted by "how many of what color is out here today." That's another thing, this is a revolving movement in which people demonstrate on dats they can and not on others. Demonstartors are revolving in and out as they can with their own obligations. So, there are different people every day of the demonstrations.

I'm just throwing out some possibilities here- and I am going to go look for the links of articles that state that there is a good turn-out in various areas of POC.

[Greyson]

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

What do you think accounts for the low black and latino turnout at these rallies?

Like Snowy (and ty for responding to this question) what I am posting is only my opinion. No science, statistical anything to back it up. Purely my oberservation and judgment.

It is a little bit different for POC and especailly for those without a certain level of education and/or money, resources when gathering in large numbers. First, if you must be somewhere to earn a living and it is going to make the difference as to whether you can put a roof over your family and food on the table, guess which one you choose? You go to work, not the march.

Second, if you are a member of a group of people that historically have been treated unfailry by our figures of authority and power; One tends to learn how to avoid being in situations that might render you "guilty until proven innocent" or harrassed within the frame of what is legal, maybe, or just humiliating. Many POC have had a few generations to learn the skills of how to survive in a hostile environment. These lessons are not easily unlearned. The trust is not there.

Some people may be undocumented and if arrested fear they will be deported. Others may have a previous criminal record that is recent or decades old. It is possible they cannot afford to have another arrest on their record. Even if the arrest is only civil disobedience.



__________________________________________________ ______________________________

African Americans and Hispanics suffer disastrously high unemployment rates in metro areas
Two new EPI briefing papers by Algernon Austin, director of EPI’s program in race and ethnicity detail the catastrophic effect the nation’s jobs crisis has had on African American and Hispanic communities across the nation. In High black unemployment widespread across nation’s metropolitan areas, Austin compares the post-recession unemployment rates of 2010 to those before and at the end of the recession (2007 and 2009) in 31 metro areas.
http://www.epi.org/publication/high-...politan-areas/
At 24.7 percent, Detroit led the nation in black unemployment in 2010. Likewise, Milwaukee, Las Vegas, and Minneapolis all had black unemployment rates over 20 percent. Sun Belt cities were once a refuge for African Americans seeking employment before the recession, but the metropolitan areas of Charlotte, Miami, Tampa, and Las Vegas all had unemployment rates above the national black average and were among the highest rates of all the metro areas examined.
The Huffington Post used the paper’s findings to create this interactive slideshow depicting the 10 cities where black unemployment is rising fastest.
Hispanic unemployment rates in metropolitan areas around the country had similarly discouraging findings. http://www.epi.org/publication/hispa...ent-northeast/ Of the 38 places studied, 18 saw an increase in Hispanic unemployment of over one percentage point since 2009. Providence, Rhode Island had the highest unemployment for Hispanics with a rate of 25.2 percent, followed by Hartford, Connecticut at 23.5 percent.
This week’s Economic Snapshot further illustrates the high rates of Hispanic unemployment across the nation.
The metropolitan areas with the highest rates of Hispanic unemployment were much higher than the national Hispanic average of 12.5 percent and even rival the peak national unemployment rate during the Great Depression.
“Without a strong federal jobs program, the pain of very high unemployment is likely to be long-lasting for most of America’s metropolitan blacks and Hispanics,” said Austin.

[CherylNYC]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Latinos and Blacks Missing in Occupy Wall Street


José Fernando López

Editor in Chief, PODER Magazine


Days before the arrest of 700 people in the Brooklyn Bridge in New York, I read in the El Pais newspaper, from Spain, an article about the Occupy Wall Street movement. Until the arrest, except for acknowledging certain fleeting appearances on record, such as the one from Michael Moore or Susan Sarandon, newspapers in this country had not given much importance to the protests taking place in the heart of Manhattan. El Pais, however, has followed the issue with interest from the beginning (mid-September), for its resemblance to the movement of the Indignados (Indignants) that shook Spain a few months ago.

In the El Pais article, my attention was caught by a quote from Gonzalo Venegas, a musician from the Bronx, who was going for the first time to the Zuccotti Park, the center of the protest given the police barrier of Wall Street. "Here," said Venegas, "Latinos and blacks are missing." Maybe, I said to myself while reading such a blunt assertion, it's because the movement has nothing to do with them. But looking more closely at the reasons for the protest, it became clear that it did.

The United States is experiencing the worst economic crisis of the last eighty years, due largely in part to the greed of banks and the lack of regulation of the financial system. And that crisis has not only swept away millions of jobs, but threatens to reduce social benefits -- in addition to those that lost their homes after the bursting of the housing bubble.

The responsibility for the financial system has been pointed out by tens of experts. But none have highlighted that responsibility as the government itself, which after handing out millions of dollars belonging to the taxpayers to the banks -- to avoid a debacle -- decided to sue 17 of them for having "cheated," according to them, state agencies Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac by selling toxic mortgages to them.

According to an article in The Wall Street Journal, the Federal Housing Finance Agency, which was the official agency that brought the lawsuit, "said the mortgage-backed securities were sold to Fannie and Freddie based on documents that 'contained misstatements and omissions of material facts concerning the quality of the underlying mortgage loans, the creditworthiness of the Borrowers, and the practices used to originate such loan'."

It is no secret that the toxic mortgages -- and the practices followed to originate the loans -- are a great part of the origin of the crisis, and it is against these practices, among others, that the organizers of Occupy Wall Street protest. Well, according to a recent study by the Pew Research Center, Hispanics and blacks are among the groups most affected by the mortgage crisis.

According to the study, "in percentage terms, the bursting of the housing market bubble in 2006 and the recession that followed from late 2007 to mid-2009 took a far greater toll on the wealth of minorities than on whites. From 2005 to 2009, inflation-adjusted median wealth fell by 66% among Hispanic households and 53% among black households, compared with just 16% among white households". And "about a third of black (35%) and Hispanic (31%) households had zero or negative net worth in 2009, compared with 15% of white households".
I'm not sure that a protest movement like Occupy Wall Street is the best way to prevent this sort of thing from happening again. But after analyzing the causes for the protest and the impact the crisis has had on minorities, I understood Venegas' phrase better. For Hispanics living in the United States, and for those seeking to capture their vote in the upcoming elections, there are few issues that should be as important than the issue of migration.

I can only speak from personal experience about the protest I attended yesterday, (Wednesday),evening. The organizers were a groupcalled United, and the majority of them were people of colour. They were very recognisable in their red t-shirts, and they did an excellent job keeping the crowd safe. Perhaps the news media chooses to focus on the white protestors, (I wouldn't know because I don't have a TV), but the mix of demonstrators that I saw seemed to be a good reflection of the diversity of our NYC population.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Corkey

Make the IRS code one page, no more loopholes. Pay income tax on a simplified formula and make companies pay their fair share. Seems like a no brainer, except the ones without brains are the ones we have in office.

One of the key factors all along the way of internal revenue reform in the US is just how big and active the tax attorney and certified public accountant lobbys are! This is big business in the US. From H & R Block to online tax prep services. This industry has made a lot of money on how complex just filing income tax can be for even people that are by no means wealthy, and want to reduce their tax liability by utilizing breaks that they are entitled too. Things like deductions for educators or mortgage interest, having a home office, etc.

These folks do not want a simplified tax code- don't want "just folks" to be able to file a simple return with their check if they owe. This is a billion dollar business in the US. Mention a flat tax toan accountant and hear them stutter!!

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

One of the key factors all along the way of internal revenue reform in the US is just how big and active the tax attorney and certified public accountant lobbys are! This is big business in the US. From H & R Block to online tax prep services. This industry has made a lot of money on how complex just filing income tax can be for even people that are by no means wealthy, and want to reduce their tax liability by utilizing breaks that they are entitled too. Things like deductions for educators or mortgage interest, having a home office, etc.

These folks do not want a simplified tax code- don't want "just folks" to be able to file a simple return with their check if they owe. This is a billion dollar business in the US. Mention a flat tax toan accountant and hear them stutter!!

I've always done my own taxes, except for one year when the company I worked for moved and took us with it and I had to sell my home and the bonus money for moving, and the estate monies from my parents living trust. It was a mess and I am certainly not qualified to figure all that out. I never use H&R and never will.

[Glenn]

I don't disagree with the fact that everyone needs to be held accountable for their own choices in life, even if we were all bombarded through corporate media with easy credit, real estate, cars, plasma Tv's, Bush encouraging us to spend more after 911, etc. What goes up comes down, and all of a sudden none of it was our fault? If my Mom and Pop store fails, I will take full blame. I won't blame the government. If I lived beyond my means, I've got whats coming to me. I still believe in Capitalism. It's flawed but can be fixed. But when the hammer drops, the poor feel it worse. The middle and working class have learned also by losing their homes and jobs. I agree with Obama to tax the billionairs. It was the ones at the top that shifted the blame outside of themselves, and refused to take responsibility. Maybe if there were more prison sentences and less fines for them it would've been different. Everyone, rich, poor, middle class needs to be held accountable for their choices. And speaking of Religion, most world religions do not condon usury. And speaking of morals, what is moral about charging someone $400 for 30 lifesaving pills, when I could look up the active ingredient and order a fifty gallon drum of it for ten dollars. This is how the billionairs are raping the poor and middle-class. We have been slaves to the billionairs of the world, and the best slaves, are the ones who don't know they are slaves.

[MsMerrick]

Here's photos from last Sunday ( October 2 ) down at Occupy Wall Street

My Facebook Public Photos
I was there at the March ( and I love the aerial view..! ) but my back hurt too much , so I didn't do the whole march. There was an incredible range of diversity there, and many Unions! All of which was very inspiring....

Here's a much smaller album of shots from the beginning of the March on Wednesday evening.
more of my FB albums