OCCUPY WALL STREET

[JAGG]

Originally Posted by Julie

I am sorry if you feel misunderstood - I read your words a few times and this is how I understood them. It came off as a great lacking of empathy.

I do have a question though... How do you really know if someone is being lazy or as you say just stupidity? And how do you know if it is in fact their fault? Honestly - We can assume many things and by making such assumptions, people are hurt.

What constitutes poor choices? And who are we to judge, they are poor choices?

And why is it based on how you feel? Could your feelings be wrong, based on bias or wrong information?

I believe this is how we get in trouble in this society - we make life changing calls for people, based on our own emotions and logic - we can certainly be skewed.

Julie

Of course my feelings could be wrong. But I'm not someone who would shoot off my mouth unless I had facts and real life experience , and my experiences have caused me to render the conclusions that my feelings and opinions are based on. I in no way ever think I'm right and someone else is wrong. I'm simply stating the truth as I know it,what my experience has been and why my view may differ from yours. You know I love ya Julie. I know I pushed your buttons so I'm going to try to unpush them by explaining what I mean a little better. Because I know when there is a passionate debate people will tend to read into things and tempers flair . So here's a little better explaination. Keep in mind you may not agree with me. There is a hurricane coming been getting reports 2 weeks solid. Everyone is told to evacuate. But instead of doing the right thing, some guy decides I'm not going to do the right thing, even though I'm taking a risk and I know what could happen, I'm gonna stick it out take my chances. The worst occurs. Now he has had warning after warning, 3 days of mandatory evacuations. Even had sheriffs going door to door in case someone was home bound. He still stayed. Now he is in a bad mess, he is forced to the roof top because the house is completely flooded. He is watching home after home swept away and he knows he screwed up. So he calls 911. Now the police the fireman and paramedics have to risk their lives , in white cap rapids, of rancid water full of virus's , bacteria dead animals you name it , to save this guy. Should the tax payers have to foot the bill for the rescue? No way!!! He should. Am I saying he shouldn't be rescued. Hell no I'm not saying that. Did I say he deserves to die , hell no didn't say that either. What I'm saying is he should have to pay for his poor choice, not us. And if a fireman or policeman dies trying to save him, he should be charged with involuntary manslaughter on top of paying for the cost of the rescue service. It's not fair to have to pay for someone else because they made poor choices. I don't agree with it. If that makes me lack empathy so be it. What I can't for the life of me understand is why people think we should. Why people think no one should have to take responsibilty for their actions boggles my mind. You don't think that is a good definition of stupitidy, staying even though you knew you should leave? I do .That was a poor choice . you make call me judgemental I call it a fact. That was plain old fashion stupid, and I shouldn't have to pay for it.

Now let me guess what's gong happen. Someone is going to read this post. Get pissed and come up with some crazy scenerio that has nothing to do with what I am talking about then try to accuse me of meaning something I never even came close to thinking . Like this , well JAGG what if a steel mill blows up and 50 houses catch on fire, or what if a train derails and spews toxic liquid into a neighborhood, or a gas line explodes and burns up a nursing home, are you going make those people pay to be rescued too. Lets hope your house never catches on fire you never need to be rescued. It's clear you have never had any thing bad ever happen to you and you don't know what it's like to have your arms and legs cut off and need a paramedic. My 3rd cousin didnt tie his shoes one day and tripped on his lace fell down the steps broke his hip had to call a Paramedic are you saying that's his fault and he has to pay for his bad choice?????? I guess you would just leave him there to die. Because he didn't make the same choice you would have, he is just plain old fashion stupid and deserves to die. I think you're the stupid one.

[Corkey]

What if JAGG, he were 80 years old and didn't have a car and couldn't find anyone to take him out of harms way. Sound familiar? Katrina anyone? Not everyone has a choice as you put it, and some choices are not really a choice at all.

[JAGG]

:seeingstar s:

Originally Posted by Corkey

What if JAGG, he were 80 years old and didn't have a car and couldn't find anyone to take him out of harms way. Sound familiar? Katrina anyone? Not everyone has a choice as you put it, and some choices are not really a choice at all.

:seeingstar s::seeingst ars:

[Mr.Nobody]

I wonder how many bankers and developers and "investors" ever said...hmmm...I don't think these people can afford this home...let's not take their money....

I went this evening, to Occupy Pueblo...I met many people, old and young...some monied, some flat ass broke. Men, women and children of every shape and size and kind were there. I listened to stories of losing family businesses and hungry children and medical bills and job loss. I watched people weep, telling about how scared they are. I saw the fire in their eyes when they talked about how mad they are. I saw them shaking hands and hugging and talking about how can we make things better.

But I didn't hear one of the tell the story of yeah...I ripped off the government and had 6 motorcycles I couldn't pay for and my wife had a new mercedes and my kids were in private school and we ate steak and lobster every night. Now I know these folks are out there, but I really believe they are the exception, not the rule.

I did hear an old woman speak though. She told of her husband of 52 years that had died awhile back. They didn't have any kids and little savings. She had to sell the house to help pay off debt. The house sat for some time and her bills were piling up. By "chance" she met a "real estate developer". He came in and looked around her home. He offered her $58,000. At first she said no, because she was asking $72,000. But another 2 months went by with no better offers and she finally sold. The "developer" painted the house inside and out. Refinished the hardwood floors and "updated" the kitchen. One month later, her house was back on the market for $213,000. Boy, I guess she made the "wrong" choice there! Good thing she's paying for it now living in a rent controlled one bedroom studio apartment!

There is no ONE answer. But EVERYONE should have a voice. People SHOULD be able to say...no, please don't spend my tax dollars bailing out people who want to live off the system. People SHOULD be able to say...no, please don't send all those hundreds of thousands of jobs overseas. People SHOULD be able to say...yes, please pay our teachers more because they are the future of our children! People SHOULD be able to say...no, please mr senators, don't vote yourselves another pay raise. People SHOULD be able to say...yes please, let those people get married. People SHOULD be able to say...no please, don't use $83 kazillion dollars to bail out those assholes that took our money!!!! And they SHOULD be able to expect their voices heard. ALL PEOPLE!!! Even the one's who have made "wrong, stupid, bad, lazy or poor" choices.

And theoretically that's the way our government is supposed to work. But when was the last time your alderman, or congressman or governor came to visit your house to sit over tea and chat about what kinds of things you would like to see changed?
It's time for change......yes?

[Sachita]

This may have been posted. If not here it is-

http://15october.net/

On October 15th people from all over the world will take to the streets and squares.

From America to Asia, from Africa to Europe, people are rising up to claim their rights and demand a true democracy. Now it is time for all of us to join in a global non violent protest.

The ruling powers work for the benefit of just a few, ignoring the will of the vast majority and the human and environmental price we all have to pay. This intolerable situation must end.

United in one voice, we will let politicians, and the financial elites they serve, know it is up to us, the people, to decide our future. We are not goods in the hands of politicians and bankers who do not represent us.

On October 15th, we will meet on the streets to initiate the global change we want. We will peacefully demonstrate, talk and organize until we make it happen.

It’s time for us to unite. It’s time for them to listen.

[Julie]

Originally Posted by JAGG

Of course my feelings could be wrong. But I'm not someone who would shoot off my mouth unless I had facts and real life experience , and my experiences have caused me to render the conclusions that my feelings and opinions are based on. I in no way ever think I'm right and someone else is wrong. I'm simply stating the truth as I know it,what my experience has been and why my view may differ from yours. You know I love ya Julie. I know I pushed your buttons so I'm going to try to unpush them by explaining what I mean a little better. Because I know when there is a passionate debate people will tend to read into things and tempers flair . So here's a little better explaination. Keep in mind you may not agree with me.

There is a hurricane coming been getting reports 2 weeks solid. Everyone is told to evacuate. But instead of doing the right thing, some guy decides I'm not going to do the right thing, even though I'm taking a risk and I know what could happen, I'm gonna stick it out take my chances. The worst occurs. Now he has had warning after warning, 3 days of mandatory evacuations. Even had sheriffs going door to door in case someone was home bound. He still stayed. Now he is in a bad mess, he is forced to the roof top because the house is completely flooded. He is watching home after home swept away and he knows he screwed up. So he calls 911. Now the police the fireman and paramedics have to risk their lives , in white cap rapids, of rancid water full of virus's , bacteria dead animals you name it , to save this guy. Should the tax payers have to foot the bill for the rescue? No way!!! He should. Am I saying he shouldn't be rescued. Hell no I'm not saying that. Did I say he deserves to die , hell no didn't say that either. What I'm saying is he should have to pay for his poor choice, not us. And if a fireman or policeman dies trying to save him, he should be charged with involuntary manslaughter on top of paying for the cost of the rescue service. It's not fair to have to pay for someone else because they made poor choices. I don't agree with it. If that makes me lack empathy so be it. What I can't for the life of me understand is why people think we should. Why people think no one should have to take responsibilty for their actions boggles my mind. You don't think that is a good definition of stupitidy, staying even though you knew you should leave? I do .That was a poor choice . you make call me judgemental I call it a fact. That was plain old fashion stupid, and I shouldn't have to pay for it.

Now let me guess what's gong happen. Someone is going to read this post. Get pissed and come up with some crazy scenerio that has nothing to do with what I am talking about then try to accuse me of meaning something I never even came close to thinking . Like this , well JAGG what if a steel mill blows up and 50 houses catch on fire, or what if a train derails and spews toxic liquid into a neighborhood, or a gas line explodes and burns up a nursing home, are you going make those people pay to be rescued too. Lets hope your house never catches on fire you never need to be rescued. It's clear you have never had any thing bad ever happen to you and you don't know what it's like to have your arms and legs cut off and need a paramedic. My 3rd cousin didnt tie his shoes one day and tripped on his lace fell down the steps broke his hip had to call a Paramedic are you saying that's his fault and he has to pay for his bad choice?????? I guess you would just leave him there to die. Because he didn't make the same choice you would have, he is just plain old fashion stupid and deserves to die. I think you're the stupid one.

Jagg... Thank YOU for your words.

I am going to address the man not leaving his house during a hurricane. We honestly do not know why people do not heed the warnings when there is a natural disaster coming their way. There are going to be a multitude of reasons as to why people stay. Perhaps the man has a pet, and the pet is elderly and cannot get out. Perhaps he has possessions which mean the world to him. Perhaps is just simply terrified and suffers from Agraphobia. He might also just simply be one of those people who does not believe anything can touch him. I am not so worried about footing the bill, as I am about the lives of the rescue people, who now must put themselves at risk to save him. The other part of this, at least for me. I don't think about what it is going to cost us financially - This is where I have always differed from main stream - I care about how it is going to affect all of us emotionally, with each death we read about.

And Jagg, I have seen people without limbs after buildings have exploded. Though, do to war and terrorism. There was talk of me going to Pakistan/India a few years back -- Both incredibly dangerous places for a woman and for a Jewish Woman - The same came up about Uganda. I am willing to go and take those risks (though it does frighten me). I know what they are - I know how these countries feel about me, and add to the fact that I am a peace worker. Knowing the risks -- I would still like to go. What if I get hurt? Will you take care of me? Or will your mind go to that place, where it might say -- Ahhh... Julie knew the risks - why should we pay for her medical bills or even try and get her out of the country, if she cannot - or who is going to pay my psychiatric treatment if I come back with ptsd. Just using examples - I have no idea what might or could happen, should I be lucky enough to go - If my bosses will let me, they are more afraid for me than I am. Will you take care of me Jagg? Will you fight for my benefits? Remember, I know the risks and I am willing to take them.

Or what about the young woman who was raped hitchhiking? Should we pay for her medical expenses after her brutal attack? Clearly, she knew the risks she was taking, before she stuck her thumb out and climbed into that car.

In life, there are no real experiences - we simply cannot say based on my experience... Because tomorrow your experience might be different and tomorrow something catastrophic might happen, that you simply cannot be objective about. Life is a constant continuum and how beautiful that is. I have seen a lot in my fifty years and I can honestly say... I will not judge or make a decision based on the experiences that I have had. I must always try and remain open minded and clear - try to place myself in another persons situation - if that is even possible. I must always remember first - I am Julie. I am simply a human being with emotions and skin - Tomorrow, I might not be either.

Julie

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by JAGG

:seeingstar s::seeingst ars::seeing stars:

Rather juvenile to the conversation don't you think?

[Dominique]

Originally Posted by JAGG

:seeingstar s::seeingst ars::seeing stars:

JAGG insists she has empathy, then posts something like this Corkey. I guess Katrina and all of those Elderly folks
stuck on top of their roofs, many of whom died. That was their fault. Poor choice, ya know.........

[JAGG]

Originally Posted by Yellow band

JAGG insists she has empathy, then posts something like this Corkey. I guess Katrina and all of those Elderly folks
stuck on top of their roofs, many of whom died. That was their fault. Poor choice, ya know.........

The reason for the stars is because corkey did exactly what I said someone would do. Take what I said and come up with some story that isn't even remotely related to the point I'm trying to make.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by JAGG

The reason for the stars is because Corkey did exactly what I said someone would do. Take what I said and come up with some story that isn't even remotely related to the point I'm trying to make.

Had everything to do with your point, you used the analogy of a person and a hurricane, you just forgot that it was reality for many people, which my point proved.

[tapu]

So I talked to individuals today who were part of the 99%, or however they identified themselves, protest. The signs the group held were mainly directed at stripping the corporation of the legal fiction "personhood."

I got a pointer to this documentary:




I haven't watched this yet, but I remember from Linguistics classes that the metaphor "The corporation is a person" is what allows, for example, a corp to make certain contributions to a political candidate or issue, same as a person. Interesting stuff.