OCCUPY WALL STREET

Gráinne · 11-01-2011, 03:20 PM

Well, that's it; I'll either be screamed off the board or banned for this.

I've been reading along this thread, as it is a current event, and I wanted to hear all sides. Some points I agree with, others, maybe not. I do hear and understand that there is fear and fed-upness about the economy, banking, and foreign wars, as well as a host of other issues. I understand that. I totally agree that there is a lot of apathy out there, and a lot more that all of us can do to effect change, whether it's OWS or through other means. Gandhi said "Be the change you want to see in the world".

What I need to put out here on the table is that some (if not several) of us on this board came from, know someone who came from, or had family living under fascist or communist systems, or farther back, equally repressive royalty. Some of my family lies under Poland for being the "wrong" religion. Others on the other side of my family came from grinding poverty only to find "No Irish Need Apply" signs. I have a friend who can never go back to her country of origin, as it dissolved into civil war that still periodically breaks out. Make that two, in fact, but different countries of origin. Another friend's parents were exiled thousands of miles out of their homeland to central Asia. Many of my friends are still in the country they were born, or at least the land, but there was a revolution in seemingly five minutes that turned their lives and families upside down. All of them at one time or another have told me about thoughts of going to America.

I surely believe we have large problems and inequalities. I have to believe that we have the solutions, both individually and as a group. I'd be hypocritical if I didn't say that I've considered emigrating out of here. But, compared to a lot of other places, we're a lot freer with more opportunity for women and POC than in the not so distant past.

I also want to say I like and respect all of those on this board and in this thread. With all that said, there's something that gnaws in my gut when we're compared to the Jews (and many other groups) under Hitler, Russia under Stalin, the Yugoslavs under Tito, or the North Koreans today. It just hits me wrong. I just ask out of respect for all of those peoples, and many more, please not to call us "fascist".

If you're angry with me, so be it. I stand by my words.

Corkey · 11-01-2011, 03:36 PM

I don't think all of us are fascists. But from what Drew posted I find that in the US all 14 of the points of fascism are in fact a part of the way the US is being run. Socially as well as politically. Are all of us fascists? No, then again there are some who fit fascist to a tee.

My father fought against fascists, then he became a bigot, then his eyes got opened, and he changed his mind before he died. Change is inevitable, I just hope that we don't change for the worst.

No flame from me, and yes we in the US used to live very privileged lives, I really can't say that any longer.

SoNotHer · 11-01-2011, 04:08 PM

I appreciate the distinction you're trying to make.

However, I do think we need to a call a thing what it is. And wherever we want to start with this, we are living in a country that increasingly resembles fascism.

I can point to examples to support this, not the least of which include the brutal police response to OWS protestors, the nightmare that is Guantanamo, voting (machines, records and access), a large share of the tax dollar pie in support of endless military moves, the legalization of profiling (new anti-immigration laws), the privatization (and exponential growth) of prisons and much, much more.

My background is Polish, Turkish, Romanian, and a few other countries that have seen despots and systemic oppression. But I believe we can still have fascism in America in 2011 and call it that. And God help us if in our denial of that, it only grows.

Quote:

Originally Posted by guihong

Well, that's it; I'll either be screamed off the board or banned for this.

I've been reading along this thread, as it is a current event, and I wanted to hear all sides. Some points I agree with, others, maybe not. I do hear and understand that there is fear and fed-upness about the economy, banking, and foreign wars, as well as a host of other issues. I understand that. I totally agree that there is a lot of apathy out there, and a lot more that all of us can do to effect change, whether it's OWS or through other means. Gandhi said "Be the change you want to see in the world".

What I need to put out here on the table is that some (if not several) of us on this board came from, know someone who came from, or had family living under fascist or communist systems, or farther back, equally repressive royalty. Some of my family lies under Poland for being the "wrong" religion. Others on the other side of my family came from grinding poverty only to find "No Irish Need Apply" signs. I have a friend who can never go back to her country of origin, as it dissolved into civil war that still periodically breaks out. Make that two, in fact, but different countries of origin. Another friend's parents were exiled thousands of miles out of their homeland to central Asia. Many of my friends are still in the country they were born, or at least the land, but there was a revolution in seemingly five minutes that turned their lives and families upside down. All of them at one time or another have told me about thoughts of going to America.

I surely believe we have large problems and inequalities. I have to believe that we have the solutions, both individually and as a group. I'd be hypocritical if I didn't say that I've considered emigrating out of here. But, compared to a lot of other places, we're a lot freer with more opportunity for women and POC than in the not so distant past.

I also want to say I like and respect all of those on this board and in this thread. With all that said, there's something that gnaws in my gut when we're compared to the Jews (and many other groups) under Hitler, Russia under Stalin, the Yugoslavs under Tito, or the North Koreans today. It just hits me wrong. I just ask out of respect for all of those peoples, and many more, please not to call us "fascist".

If you're angry with me, so be it. I stand by my words.

Corkey · 11-01-2011, 04:17 PM

From a friends FB page. The Guardian UK.

Occupy Oakland: police to be investigated over Scott Olsen injury

Citizens' Police Review Board to launch formal investigation as Oakland prepares for general strike on Wednesday

Occupy Oakland protester Scott Olsen is seen lying on the ground after he was apparently hit by a projectile at a protest. Photograph: screengrab via YouTube
Oakland police are to be the subject of a formal investigation after Iraq war veteran Scott Olsen suffered a fractured skull at an Occupy Oakland protest last week.

Oakland's Citizens' Police Review Board is launching the investigation after it received a complaint on Friday. Police in Oakland are bracing themselves for a general strike on Wednesday, which has been announced by the city's Occupy movement and is expected to cause disruption across the city.

Olsen, 24, was seriously injured after being hit on the head by a police projectile. He is still in hospital and unable to talk, communicating only through short written messages.

A source at the review board said the investigation will begin in the next few days, and is expected to last "several months".

"We're reviewing the information we have at the moment," the source told the Guardian.

The board received the complaint from a member of the public. The complaint "relates specifically to Scott Olsen", and was not filed by a member of Olsen's family.

An investigator has yet to be assigned to the case, but will be "within the next few days", the source said.

"I think it's a wonderful thing," said Alan Brill, who acts as a spokesman for Occupy Oakland.

"Just like every once in a while people do things that are wrong from our side, there is a small percentage of police that are out of control, and I'm glad they're being investigated."

Olsen, a former marine who served two tours of Iraq, was injured on Tuesday 25 October as police cleared the Occupy Oakland camp from its base at Frank Ogawa plaza, outside Oakland city hall.

Police used teargas and "less lethal" weapons to clear the plaza. Olsen was apparently struck in the forehead, knocking him to the ground. Video footage shows a police officer throwing an explosive towards a group of protesters who went to Olsen's aid.

More than 15 police agencies were involved in the operation that day, including San Francisco sheriffs.

There has been speculation on social media sites that it was a San Francisco sheriff who injured Olsen, with some Twitter and Facebook accounts naming an officer. However, sheriff spokeswoman Eileen Hirst said that while a platoon of 35 sheriffs did attend the Oakland operation, none of them were carrying teargas or less lethal weapons.

Hirst said the San Francisco sheriffs' involvement in the operation in Oakland was being reviewed internally, but none of the 35 officers who attended on 25 October had been suspended.

Thousands of Occupy protesters are expected to gather in Oakland for the general strike and mass day of action on Wednesday. The strike aims to "shut down" the city, culminating with a march to the Port of Oakland to prevent the transit of cargo.

"Oakland was the site of the last general strike in the US," said protester Tim Simons, at a press conference on Monday.

"On Wednesday, we're going to make history once again. We're going to make Oakland proud."

Sachita · 11-01-2011, 05:28 PM

when I hear this it makes me cry. I think about my granddaughter and the kind of world she will live in or if she'll get to live to be my age and have a grandchild of her own.

You can't fight enough for this.

Cin · 11-01-2011, 04:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by guihong

Well, that's it; I'll either be screamed off the board or banned for this.

I've been reading along this thread, as it is a current event, and I wanted to hear all sides. Some points I agree with, others, maybe not. I do hear and understand that there is fear and fed-upness about the economy, banking, and foreign wars, as well as a host of other issues. I understand that. I totally agree that there is a lot of apathy out there, and a lot more that all of us can do to effect change, whether it's OWS or through other means. Gandhi said "Be the change you want to see in the world".

What I need to put out here on the table is that some (if not several) of us on this board came from, know someone who came from, or had family living under fascist or communist systems, or farther back, equally repressive royalty. Some of my family lies under Poland for being the "wrong" religion. Others on the other side of my family came from grinding poverty only to find "No Irish Need Apply" signs. I have a friend who can never go back to her country of origin, as it dissolved into civil war that still periodically breaks out. Make that two, in fact, but different countries of origin. Another friend's parents were exiled thousands of miles out of their homeland to central Asia. Many of my friends are still in the country they were born, or at least the land, but there was a revolution in seemingly five minutes that turned their lives and families upside down. All of them at one time or another have told me about thoughts of going to America.

I surely believe we have large problems and inequalities. I have to believe that we have the solutions, both individually and as a group. I'd be hypocritical if I didn't say that I've considered emigrating out of here. But, compared to a lot of other places, we're a lot freer with more opportunity for women and POC than in the not so distant past.

I also want to say I like and respect all of those on this board and in this thread. With all that said, there's something that gnaws in my gut when we're compared to the Jews (and many other groups) under Hitler, Russia under Stalin, the Yugoslavs under Tito, or the North Koreans today. It just hits me wrong. I just ask out of respect for all of those peoples, and many more, please not to call us "fascist".

If you're angry with me, so be it. I stand by my words.

I do get what you are saying. But I think it's just a matter of degree at this time. And that can change in a heartbeat. I'm sure there are some incidents in the history of various nations that we can look back at and say gee, how come they didn't see that coming?

The boiled frog syndrome comes to mind as a reason. And while I don't think the boiled frog syndrome holds much water when it comes to actual boiled frogs, people, citizens, well they might not notice how hot the water is getting until it's too late. We can get used to things and not notice until the opportunity to stop it has gone by. We have accepted as necessary the loss of a percentage of our rights in the name of perceived safety already. I don't think things are going to get better any time soon.

Corkey · 11-01-2011, 04:49 PM

I forget who said it. CRS

The only way fascism get s a foothold is if good men do nothing. [sic]

I think it applies today.

SoNotHer · 11-01-2011, 05:26 PM

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

and he said a few other things that are relevant and timely:

"Better be despised for too anxious apprehensions, than ruined by too confident security."

"No one could make a greater mistake than he who did nothing because he could do only a little."

and finally -

"Hypocrisy can afford to be magnificent in its promises; for never intending to go beyond promises; it costs nothing."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Corkey

I forget who said it. CRS

The only way fascism get s a foothold is if good men do nothing. [sic]

I think it applies today.

11-01-2011, 03:20 PM	#1
Gráinne Senior Member How Do You Identify?: Neither, nada, out of the box Preferred Pronoun?: My name always works Relationship Status: Happy whatever happens Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Little Rock Posts: 1,864 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 2,118 Thanked 7,386 Times in 1,457 Posts Rep Power: 21474852	Well, that's it; I'll either be screamed off the board or banned for this. I've been reading along this thread, as it is a current event, and I wanted to hear all sides. Some points I agree with, others, maybe not. I do hear and understand that there is fear and fed-upness about the economy, banking, and foreign wars, as well as a host of other issues. I understand that. I totally agree that there is a lot of apathy out there, and a lot more that all of us can do to effect change, whether it's OWS or through other means. Gandhi said "Be the change you want to see in the world". What I need to put out here on the table is that some (if not several) of us on this board came from, know someone who came from, or had family living under fascist or communist systems, or farther back, equally repressive royalty. Some of my family lies under Poland for being the "wrong" religion. Others on the other side of my family came from grinding poverty only to find "No Irish Need Apply" signs. I have a friend who can never go back to her country of origin, as it dissolved into civil war that still periodically breaks out. Make that two, in fact, but different countries of origin. Another friend's parents were exiled thousands of miles out of their homeland to central Asia. Many of my friends are still in the country they were born, or at least the land, but there was a revolution in seemingly five minutes that turned their lives and families upside down. All of them at one time or another have told me about thoughts of going to America. I surely believe we have large problems and inequalities. I have to believe that we have the solutions, both individually and as a group. I'd be hypocritical if I didn't say that I've considered emigrating out of here. But, compared to a lot of other places, we're a lot freer with more opportunity for women and POC than in the not so distant past. I also want to say I like and respect all of those on this board and in this thread. With all that said, there's something that gnaws in my gut when we're compared to the Jews (and many other groups) under Hitler, Russia under Stalin, the Yugoslavs under Tito, or the North Koreans today. It just hits me wrong. I just ask out of respect for all of those peoples, and many more, please not to call us "fascist". If you're angry with me, so be it. I stand by my words. __________________ The odds of going to the store for a loaf of bread and coming out with only a loaf of bread are three billion to one. ~Erma Bombeck

11-01-2011, 03:36 PM	#2
Corkey Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Human Preferred Pronoun?: He Relationship Status: Very Married Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Where I want to be Posts: 8,155 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 47,491 Thanked 29,268 Times in 6,637 Posts Rep Power: 21474859	I don't think all of us are fascists. But from what Drew posted I find that in the US all 14 of the points of fascism are in fact a part of the way the US is being run. Socially as well as politically. Are all of us fascists? No, then again there are some who fit fascist to a tee. My father fought against fascists, then he became a bigot, then his eyes got opened, and he changed his mind before he died. Change is inevitable, I just hope that we don't change for the worst. No flame from me, and yes we in the US used to live very privileged lives, I really can't say that any longer. __________________ "Many proposals have been made to us to adopt your laws, your religion, your manners and your customs. We would be better pleased with beholding the good effects of these doctrines in your own practices, than with hearing you talk about them". ~Old Tassel, Chief of the Tsalagi (Cherokee)

11-01-2011, 04:17 PM	#4
Corkey Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Human Preferred Pronoun?: He Relationship Status: Very Married Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Where I want to be Posts: 8,155 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 47,491 Thanked 29,268 Times in 6,637 Posts Rep Power: 21474859	From a friends FB page. The Guardian UK. Occupy Oakland: police to be investigated over Scott Olsen injury Citizens' Police Review Board to launch formal investigation as Oakland prepares for general strike on Wednesday Occupy Oakland protester Scott Olsen is seen lying on the ground after he was apparently hit by a projectile at a protest. Photograph: screengrab via YouTube Oakland police are to be the subject of a formal investigation after Iraq war veteran Scott Olsen suffered a fractured skull at an Occupy Oakland protest last week. Oakland's Citizens' Police Review Board is launching the investigation after it received a complaint on Friday. Police in Oakland are bracing themselves for a general strike on Wednesday, which has been announced by the city's Occupy movement and is expected to cause disruption across the city. Olsen, 24, was seriously injured after being hit on the head by a police projectile. He is still in hospital and unable to talk, communicating only through short written messages. A source at the review board said the investigation will begin in the next few days, and is expected to last "several months". "We're reviewing the information we have at the moment," the source told the Guardian. The board received the complaint from a member of the public. The complaint "relates specifically to Scott Olsen", and was not filed by a member of Olsen's family. An investigator has yet to be assigned to the case, but will be "within the next few days", the source said. "I think it's a wonderful thing," said Alan Brill, who acts as a spokesman for Occupy Oakland. "Just like every once in a while people do things that are wrong from our side, there is a small percentage of police that are out of control, and I'm glad they're being investigated." Olsen, a former marine who served two tours of Iraq, was injured on Tuesday 25 October as police cleared the Occupy Oakland camp from its base at Frank Ogawa plaza, outside Oakland city hall. Police used teargas and "less lethal" weapons to clear the plaza. Olsen was apparently struck in the forehead, knocking him to the ground. Video footage shows a police officer throwing an explosive towards a group of protesters who went to Olsen's aid. More than 15 police agencies were involved in the operation that day, including San Francisco sheriffs. There has been speculation on social media sites that it was a San Francisco sheriff who injured Olsen, with some Twitter and Facebook accounts naming an officer. However, sheriff spokeswoman Eileen Hirst said that while a platoon of 35 sheriffs did attend the Oakland operation, none of them were carrying teargas or less lethal weapons. Hirst said the San Francisco sheriffs' involvement in the operation in Oakland was being reviewed internally, but none of the 35 officers who attended on 25 October had been suspended. Thousands of Occupy protesters are expected to gather in Oakland for the general strike and mass day of action on Wednesday. The strike aims to "shut down" the city, culminating with a march to the Port of Oakland to prevent the transit of cargo. "Oakland was the site of the last general strike in the US," said protester Tim Simons, at a press conference on Monday. "On Wednesday, we're going to make history once again. We're going to make Oakland proud." __________________ "Many proposals have been made to us to adopt your laws, your religion, your manners and your customs. We would be better pleased with beholding the good effects of these doctrines in your own practices, than with hearing you talk about them". ~Old Tassel, Chief of the Tsalagi (Cherokee)

11-01-2011, 05:28 PM	#5
Sachita Senior Member How Do You Identify?: Alpha Femme Preferred Pronoun?: Goddess Relationship Status: Completely in love Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Southern Virginia Posts: 3,225 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 2,564 Thanked 8,992 Times in 2,247 Posts Rep Power: 21474856	when I hear this it makes me cry. I think about my granddaughter and the kind of world she will live in or if she'll get to live to be my age and have a grandchild of her own. You can't fight enough for this. __________________ You either like me or you don't. It took me Twenty-something years to learn how to love myself, I don't have that kinda time to convince somebody else. ~ Daniel Franzese

11-01-2011, 04:49 PM	#7
Corkey Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Human Preferred Pronoun?: He Relationship Status: Very Married Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Where I want to be Posts: 8,155 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 47,491 Thanked 29,268 Times in 6,637 Posts Rep Power: 21474859	I forget who said it. CRS The only way fascism get s a foothold is if good men do nothing. [sic] I think it applies today. __________________ "Many proposals have been made to us to adopt your laws, your religion, your manners and your customs. We would be better pleased with beholding the good effects of these doctrines in your own practices, than with hearing you talk about them". ~Old Tassel, Chief of the Tsalagi (Cherokee)