Justice as fairness: we can do better than we are

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Apocalipstic

US Citizens? From the US? Estados Unidenses? Norte Americanos?

People from Brazil do live in America. South America.

Other people who live in the Americas hate it that we act like we are the only Americans.

Smart, intelligent, educated people in other countries in the Americas, other than Canada apparently, call themselves American and they are.

It is very US centric to say they are not, in my opinion. They do not agree that what to call ourselves is their problem.

So if Brazilians get to be Brazilian, and Canadians get to be Canadian, and the English get to be the English what word would you suggest we use for ourselves? Are you suggesting that, in the interest of respect for people in South America, we should perhaps change the name of the country from the United States of America? If so, what would you suggest the name of the country be? Or should we be Unionists or Statists? Or USians? If Americans is *not* the right short-name for citizens of the United States, what is? It's one thing to say "you shouldn't do that" it is quite another thing to say "and here is what you should do". I'm serious, Apoc, what would you prefer citizens of the United States call themselves? Citizen of the USA? Citizen of the United States? Citizen of the US? What have we done that of ALL the people in the world now, in the past or indefinitely into the future can call themselves Germans if they are from Germany or French if they are from France or Mexican if they are from Mexico but we, only we, cannot have a short name for ourselves as citizens of our nation? Why is it only us who must go through lengthy circumlocutions when the English can call themselves English even though they had an empire that lasted quite some time?

ETA: If it is because of our empire, shouldn't the same apply to the Japanese, the Chinese, the French, the British, the Turks, the Germans, the Russians and the Persians? ALL of them had empires at one point or another. Some much more recently than others and every last one of them was somewhere on the line of brutal. Shouldn't they *also* be stripped of their national names? Now, this is based *solely* on the idea that Americans--uniquely amongst nations--has been so overwhelmingly horrible to other nations that it is an *insult* to others for us to have a short-name for ourselves as a people because they are also Americans in as much as they occupy the Western Hemisphere. If it is not because of our imperial actions, then what *is* it based on because this seems to me to be a case of "America must pay for her crimes" and stripping the citizens of their national name is a good place to start.

Cheers
Aj

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

So if Brazilians get to be Brazilian, and Canadians get to be Canadian, and the English get to be the English what word would you suggest we use for ourselves? Are you suggesting that, in the interest of respect for people in South America, we should perhaps change the name of the country from the United States of America? If so, what would you suggest the name of the country be? Or should we be Unionists or Statists? Or USians? If Americans is *not* the right short-name for citizens of the United States, what is? It's one thing to say "you shouldn't do that" it is quite another thing to say "and here is what you should do". I'm serious, Apoc, what would you prefer citizens of the United States call themselves? Citizen of the USA? Citizen of the United States? Citizen of the US? What have we done that of ALL the people in the world now, in the past or indefinitely into the future can call themselves Germans if they are from Germany or French if they are from France or Mexican if they are from Mexico but we, only we, cannot have a short name for ourselves as citizens of our nation? Why is it only us who must go through lengthy circumlocutions when the English can call themselves English even though they had an empire that lasted quite some time?

Cheers
Aj

I'm serious here too, while admitting we will probably continue to disagree on this subject...and thats OK

Let's say France had decided to name itself the United States of Europe and expected everyone to call them and only them "Europeans"?

It would be obnoxious? Yes?

To me, its the same situation, the continent was named America and the US decided to go with naming itself the United States of America and to expect everyone to call US citizens and only US citizens "American"...and for the excuse to be that it would be awkward not to.

To me? Obnoxious.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Apocalipstic

I'm serious here too, while admitting we will probably continue to disagree on this subject...and thats OK

Let's say France had decided to name itself the United States of Europe and expected everyone to call them and only them "Europeans"?

It would be obnoxious? Yes?

To me, its the same situation, the continent was named America and the US decided to go with naming itself the United States of America and to expect everyone to call US citizens and only US citizens "American"...and for the excuse to be that it would be awkward not to.

To me? Obnoxious.

Okay, so what would you suggest that the United States of America change it's name to? You've done the easy part, saying "this is wrong and should not be done" now, what about the hard part of "and this is how you make it right". I'll accept, for the moment, your argument and stipulate that the United States should change its name from the United States of America to something else. So what *should* that name be? And how do you propose we go about convincing large numbers of citizens that we *should* change the name of our country? How would you make that case?

Cheers
Aj

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

Okay, so what would you suggest that the United States of America change it's name to? You've done the easy part, saying "this is wrong and should not be done" now, what about the hard part of "and this is how you make it right". I'll accept, for the moment, your argument and stipulate that the United States should change its name from the United States of America to something else. So what *should* that name be?

Cheers
Aj

I am not saying we change it, it seems way too late for that (and everyone already hates us)...I am saying we take a couple more seconds to say "US Citizens".

I am from the USA or US.

That is what I try to say

It would go a long way to mend fences.

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Apocalipstic

I am not saying we change it, it seems way too late for that (and everyone already hates us)...I am saying we take a couple more seconds to say "US Citizens".

I am from the USA or US.

That is what I try to say

It would go a long way to mend fences.

Dare I ask how? I can understand "please, don't overthrow our governments, if you don't mind" or "if it's not too much trouble, you can give the mining of our harbors a miss" or "that's okay, you can keep your foreign aid" (although I bet people would be very upset if we cut the Latin American nations off) or even "look, he may be a kleptocratic son-of-a-bitch but he's *our* kleptocratic son-of-a-bitch, thank you very much". I can see how taking those sentiments into account would mend fences but not calling ourselves Americans? Are you saying that, for instance, a trade deal that might have led to more economic and cultural exchange between the US and Brazil would fail because the US delegates call themselves Americans but if they, again unlike every other people on the face of the Earth, made the extra linguistic effort to say, 'citizens of the United States' then the deal would go through? Are you going to suggest that citizens of 38 00 N, 97 00 W doing business in Brazil or Costa Rica would have an easier time of it if, instead of calling themselves Americans, they used, so that it is impossible to insult anyone, the circumlocution "I'm a 38Norther by 97 Wester"

Please help me understand precisely *how* not calling ourselves Americans would mend fences? "We can let the mining of the harbors go buy, since you call yourself a 38 Norther by 97 Wester." I mean, it would take some time to get used to the idea but calling ourselves by our longitudinal and latitudinal coordinates has the virtue of it being *impossible* to insult someone because there really is only *one* nation whose geographic center is 38 00 N, 97 00 W.

Cheers
Aj

[SecretAgentMa'am]

Here's my issue:

People who are from the Democratic Republic of Congo are called Congolese, not Democratic Republicans or anything else.

People who are from the United Republic of Tanzania are called Tanzanian, not URians or Citizens of the United Republic.

People from the Central African Republic are called Central Africans, and no one seems to complain that they are claiming to be the only Africans or the only people from the central area of the continent.

People from the Federated States of Micronesia are Micronesian, not Federated Staters or Citizens of the Federated States.

So why is it that people who are from a country called the United States of America are obnoxious for calling ourselves Americans? People of every single country on the planet call themselves by a name that comes from the name of the country and differentiates them from citizens of other countries. Why are we different? Why are Americans not allowed to call ourselves Americans without being accused of being obnoxious? Why are we obnoxious and no one else is? It seems to me very much like blaming a child because you don't like the name their parents chose for them, and demanding that they call themselves something else to suit you.

[Cin]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

Okay, so what would you suggest that the United States of America change it's name to? You've done the easy part, saying "this is wrong and should not be done" now, what about the hard part of "and this is how you make it right". I'll accept, for the moment, your argument and stipulate that the United States should change its name from the United States of America to something else. So what *should* that name be? And how do you propose we go about convincing large numbers of citizens that we *should* change the name of our country? How would you make that case?

Cheers
Aj

Maybe we could just keep our name and just stop being so myopically obnoxious.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

Maybe we could just keep our name and just stop being so myopically obnoxious.

Ohhhh, if only!