When Will There Be Guaranteed Freedom From Persecution To Be Religious

[Cin]

Originally Posted by EnderD_503

I know what I've mentioned above doesn't seem relevant,

Everything you said is so incredibly relevant. And I don't see much chance for change as long as people are persecuted to be religious.

As Toughy mentioned people are afraid to admit they are not a Christian. I will take it one important step further. People are afraid to admit it if they are not particularly moved by claims of religious or spiritual beliefs.

Personally I don't care what any politician thinks about the existence of god. I am no more moved to believe in the truth of their words if they say "so help me god" or if they say "pinky swear".

I am not inclined to believe in the best intentions and inherent goodness of someone simply because they profess to belief in god. It is this connection between goodness and morality and a belief in the existence of a creator of the universe that is most disturbing.

It's like many of us actually believe religious people are the keepers of morality. Those of us who either don't believe in any god or question the existence of god are of dubious moral fiber.

Those who use religion as a weapon bogart the term moral and conflat it with religious. And we let them by failing to shove their immoral behavior in their faces at every possible opportunity.

I know until recently I cringed when I heard the terms moral, ethical or morality being used. Immediately I thought judgmental, religious, nothing I can identify with. I realize I was wrong. I am a moral person. I have ethics. I believe in doing what is right. I don't have to believe in god to do that. I don't have to have religion to be that.

If you claim moral as your anthem. If you rub morality in the faces of everyone, then you have an obligation to be moral. You should be held accountable for your claims of moral righteousness. So I think we should do that more often. Hold our elected and our aspiring to be elected officials accountable. It is not moral to spend the time of congress and the house voting on a motto of in god we trust when unemployment is out of control and people are hurting. It is not moral to allow the 1% of the population who has 99% of the wealth to buy your vote. It is not moral to sell out the constituency who voted you in office. It is immoral to sell yourself to the rich and vote policy that continues to place a disproportionate amount of wealth in the hands of so very few at the expense of the health and welfare of the rest. Not to mention at the expense of the very country you claim to hold so dear. I don't need a god to know that is wrong.

[Estella]

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

I am a moral person. I have ethics. I believe in doing what is right. I don't have to believe in god to do that. I don't have to have religion to be that.

Well, of course you are. I don't know you, actually, but I'll take your word for it at any rate.

What bothers me is that you seem to be so emphatic about confirming this and I can't help but wondering - are you trying to convince others or yourself. I've been an atheist my entire life and I've never doubted for a moment that my sense of morality is, at the very very least, equal to that of any believer. But unless I'm directly challenged (and, sadly, I have been) I've never really felt compelled to justify myself in any way. It doesn't seem like anyone here is arguing with you, but your posts are tinged with defensiveness.

I don't know what your situation is, however, and I don't want to judge unduly. Perhaps you're new to your sense of identity as an atheist. Perhaps, like a lot of people, you were raised to be a believer, and then went through some agnostic phase before you had the courage to name your atheism to yourself. This is a process that should sound familiar to any lesbian from an intolerant family. Or perhaps you live in an area of the country where your atheism makes you a target for mistrust and contempt. This is yet another situation that many lesbians and trans-folk can identify with. My point is, people on this site are less likely to attack than to commiserate, whatever their world-view.

That being said, I agree with everything you have posted. You are identifying a problem with our culture that, at the moment, is not being addressed. But you currently have a President who takes pains to show respect for believers and non-believers alike. People are becoming accustomed to the fact that atheists are not ashamed of who we are, and will not be closeted. It's getting better - too slowly, of course, but most change is.

[Cin]

Originally Posted by Fenchurch

Well, of course you are. I don't know you, actually, but I'll take your word for it at any rate.

What bothers me is that you seem to be so emphatic about confirming this and I can't help but wondering - are you trying to convince others or yourself. I've been an atheist my entire life and I've never doubted for a moment that my sense of morality is, at the very very least, equal to that of any believer. But unless I'm directly challenged (and, sadly, I have been) I've never really felt compelled to justify myself in any way. It doesn't seem like anyone here is arguing with you, but your posts are tinged with defensiveness.

I don't know what your situation is, however, and I don't want to judge unduly. Perhaps you're new to your sense of identity as an atheist. Perhaps, like a lot of people, you were raised to be a believer, and then went through some agnostic phase before you had the courage to name your atheism to yourself. This is a process that should sound familiar to any lesbian from an intolerant family. Or perhaps you live in an area of the country where your atheism makes you a target for mistrust and contempt. This is yet another situation that many lesbians and trans-folk can identify with. My point is, people on this site are less likely to attack than to commiserate, whatever their world-view.

That being said, I agree with everything you have posted. You are identifying a problem with our culture that, at the moment, is not being addressed. But you currently have a President who takes pains to show respect for believers and non-believers alike. People are becoming accustomed to the fact that atheists are not ashamed of who we are, and will not be closeted. It's getting better - too slowly, of course, but most change is.

Didn't imagine it would come off that way. I don't feel like i need to justify myself morally. Nor am I newly atheist. Nor was my post actually about tolerance or intolerance from any community online or other wise. I was trying, apparently unsuccessfully, to illuminate how the religious right and many of our political leaders feel the need to conflate morality with religion. And how many people buy into it. Also my belief is that by holding our leaders accountable for what they profess to believe, one can sometimes affect change. Hopefully if you claim morality and you are serious about being a moral person and someone points out the ways that you are behaving immorally you will change the behavior. I think it is a tact that might have a chance. At least I thought so. Maybe I was wrong. Been that before.

And I never meant to give the impression I was speaking to anyone on this site about moral or immoral behavior. I don't know how I did give that impression. But let me be clear, I wasn't, in case there is confusion. I was referring to politicians, political leaders, elected officials and the religious right. If you use morality as your calling card, you can, at the very least, be expected to act morally.

Perhaps the confusion lies with a misunderstanding of what the thread is about in the first place. It is not a thread about atheism. It is a thread about the pressures to be religious. Hopefully my post was on point about that.

[Estella]

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

I was trying, apparently unsuccessfully, to illuminate how the religious right and many of our political leaders feel the need to conflate morality with religion. And how many people buy into it. Also my belief is that by holding our leaders accountable for what they profess to believe, one can sometimes affect change.

It is a thread about the pressures to be religious. Hopefully my post was on point about that.

Okay, well then evidently I'm still missing your point. Is this thread about the hijacking of "morality" by the religious right, or is it about the pressure to be religious? While certainly related, these seem like very different issues to me. Perhaps after a few more posts, I'll be able to see your point more clearly.

[Cin]

Originally Posted by Fenchurch

Okay, well then evidently I'm still missing your point. Is this thread about the hijacking of "morality" by the religious right, or is it about the pressure to be religious? While certainly related, these seem like very different issues to me. Perhaps after a few more posts, I'll be able to see your point more clearly.

Well if someone hijacks morality and only the religious are seen as moral then wouldn't that feel somewhat like pressure to be religious? At the very least there would be pressure not to challenge the moral validity of the choices made by people who claim to be religious. And there would be pressure to shy away from using moral accountability as a springboard for change if morality were conflated with religion.

The hijacking of morality is not the only issue. It is one of the issues I see bound up in the pressure to be religious.

[atomiczombie]

Originally Posted by Fenchurch

Well, of course you are. I don't know you, actually, but I'll take your word for it at any rate.

What bothers me is that you seem to be so emphatic about confirming this and I can't help but wondering - are you trying to convince others or yourself. I've been an atheist my entire life and I've never doubted for a moment that my sense of morality is, at the very very least, equal to that of any believer. But unless I'm directly challenged (and, sadly, I have been) I've never really felt compelled to justify myself in any way. It doesn't seem like anyone here is arguing with you, but your posts are tinged with defensiveness.

I don't know what your situation is, however, and I don't want to judge unduly. Perhaps you're new to your sense of identity as an atheist. Perhaps, like a lot of people, you were raised to be a believer, and then went through some agnostic phase before you had the courage to name your atheism to yourself. This is a process that should sound familiar to any lesbian from an intolerant family. Or perhaps you live in an area of the country where your atheism makes you a target for mistrust and contempt. This is yet another situation that many lesbians and trans-folk can identify with. My point is, people on this site are less likely to attack than to commiserate, whatever their world-view.

That being said, I agree with everything you have posted. You are identifying a problem with our culture that, at the moment, is not being addressed. But you currently have a President who takes pains to show respect for believers and non-believers alike. People are becoming accustomed to the fact that atheists are not ashamed of who we are, and will not be closeted. It's getting better - too slowly, of course, but most change is.

I think you are really missing the point by focusing on Miss Tick's own personal psychology. The point of this thread is how the dogmatic, bigoted christian conservatives treat atheists. I think your choice to speculate on her perceived psychological motives for starting this thread is inappropriate and disrespectful, as well as off topic.

Respectfully,

Drew

[Cin]

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

I think you are really missing the point by focusing on Miss Tick's own personal psychology. The point of this thread is how the dogmatic, bigoted christian conservatives treat atheists. I think your choice to speculate on her perceived psychological motives for starting this thread is inappropriate and disrespectful, as well as off topic.

Respectfully,

Drew

Yes, my personal psychology is beside the point. Speaking of which have I ever mentioned how much I hate my name. And I get that i chose it. But still...

[Estella]

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

Yes, my personal psychology is beside the point. Speaking of which have I ever mentioned how much I hate my name. And I get that i chose it. But still...

I guess I was wondering (in print, which I should know better than to do) why you are so pointedly assertive on the subject; but you're quite correct, it's difficult, if not impossible, in this country to have any credibility as a moral individual unless you are also willing to confirm your deep and abiding religious (usually Christian) convictions. Which seems at best unfair, and at worst un-American.

[Apocalipstic]

I believe in complete separation of church and state and in the US we don't have that...

[Daywalker]

Originally Posted by Apocalipstic

I believe in complete separation of church and state and in the US we don't have that...

Which always makes me wonder why State Colleges will allow any
Group to gather under a Religious notion, and then allow them
to Recruit or 'Honeymoon' new students. Many Cults have had
a field day with these allowances.

[Cin]

Originally Posted by Fenchurch

I guess I was wondering why you are so pointedly assertive on the subject;

You say that like it's a bad thing.

You seem to agree. At least you say I am correct. So the problem for you is I was too assertive?

I guess I am wondering what is the point of believing in something enough to start a thread about it and not being assertive about my feelings on the subject.

[ruffryder]

I'm sorry. I would like to answer my own question. LOL I guess if you believe in some or all of the "10 commandments" it doesn't have to be about God or religion to you if you are atheist. some of these commandments can fall into morals. right?

I was not getting at that anyone that doesn't believe in the commandments or follow them is immoral or not religious or even religious, just to make that clear.. anyway, any thoughts on that?

[Estella]

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

You say that like it's a bad thing.

Passion is never a bad thing.

[Daywalker]

I do not understand why someone would choose a Religion,
a supposed Core to their beliefs n such...then be
'afraid' to 'admit' their Choice.


Other than fearing for ones life in a crowd of (insert misc Religion) that
exudes abhorrence for their Chosen Religion...it just seems peculiar
to me to have a strong Religious belief in America
and not be able to disclose this safely.


Hence this thread, I guess.



I'm not Religious ~ My Core is Peace n Love ~ I Bless people from There.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by ruffryder

10 Commandments

I am the Lord thy God, ... Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven images.

Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain.

Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Honor thy father and thy mother.

Thou shalt not kill.

Thou shalt not commit adultery.

Thou shalt not steal.

Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor.

Thou shalt not covet thy neighbor's house.

Are the 10 Commandments not conflating religion with morality ?
If you believe in these, is that not being somewhat religious?? I'm not saying it is so, I am asking opinions here. Thanks!

Well, yes, the 10 comandments are in the Bible, hence religious.

However,

Just because you practice some of the ideas put forth in the 10 Commandments does not mean you are religious. These ideas for getting along as human and doing the right thing were present in writings older than the Bible.

Doing the right thing does not have to be religious. Am I making sense?

Originally Posted by Daywalker

I do not understand why someone would choose a Religion,
a supposed Core to their beliefs n such...then be
'afraid' to 'admit' their Choice.


Other than fearing for ones life in a crowd of (insert misc Religion) that
exudes abhorrence for their Chosen Religion...it just seems peculiar
to me to have a strong Religious belief in America
and not be able to disclose this safely.


Hence this thread, I guess.



I'm not Religious ~ My Core is Peace n Love ~ I Bless people from There.

Probably why some people hide being Gay, fear of persecution.

[Estella]

Originally Posted by Daywalker

[CENTER]I do not understand why someone would choose a Religion,
a supposed Core to their beliefs n such...then be
'afraid' to 'admit' their Choice.

I'm not an expert, but it doesn't seem like most people choose their religions. Most people, I believe, follow the religious beliefs they were born into, to some degree or another. Which is an extraordinarily powerful connection.

I've never met anyone afraid to admit their religious affiliation in public, but by the same token I live in a very liberal state. Which is not to say there is no discrimination here, but it may be far worse elsewhere. I have, however, met people who have hedged and dissembled when admitting that they are not believers. And I have never, ever heard a public figure do so.

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Fenchurch

I'm not an expert, but it doesn't seem like most people choose their religions. Most people, I believe, follow the religious beliefs they were born into, to some degree or another. Which is an extraordinarily powerful connection.

I've never met anyone afraid to admit their religious affiliation in public, but by the same token I live in a very liberal state. Which is not to say there is no discrimination here, but it may be far worse elsewhere. I have, however, met people who have hedged and dissembled when admitting that they are not believers. And I have never, ever heard a public figure do so.

In TN people hide a lot of things.

[Apocalipstic]

While I do agree things seem better for Atheists since...say 1963...It seems idiotic to me that in a nation which supposedly stands for religious freedom, the freedom FROM religion seems like such a stretch.

I am not sure how the issue of Miss Tick's acceptance of her own moral compass came into question?

Something I have noticed in conversations with really conservative friends and acquaintances is that they look to not angering God as the basis of how they act, not on just doing the right thing just becasue it is right. Seems fear driven.

[Estella]

Originally Posted by Apocalipstic

Something I have noticed in conversations with really conservative friends and acquaintances is that they look to not angering God as the basis of how they act, not on just doing the right thing just becasue it is right. Seems fear driven.

I've noticed this as well, and have wondered how one's basis for morality can be based in fear. Or, conversely, they're attempting to please god as a factor in ultimate reward.

[ruffryder]

thanks for the thread Miss Tick. Here is one thread where I can expand my knowledge so ty everybody for thoughts. I didn't know all that Miss Tick.

So are we saying atheists can not run for office?? Or they can, but no one should know they are atheist?.. Oh I see, certain states. Are you asking how does this change? I think morals and religion can go hand in hand, am I wrong? Maybe it all should just be based on morality and ethics when it comes to issues of government and laws but then you have people arguing what is ethical and moral since we all differ on thoughts about this. Example : the death penalty.

I'm not sure where this thread is going yet but I agree those who run for a governement office shouldn't have to be religious however I feel they should be tested on their morals and ethics with everyone agreeing what that should include in a governement held position.

What happens when you have someone that is buddhist or muslim in a government position, does this change the morals or ethics?

Maybe I'm bringing up too much, but I'm just trying to understand what we are all talking about..

Thanks!