OCCUPY WALL STREET

persiphone · 11-20-2011, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diavolo

First, I am consistently bothered by references to Nazi's, brownshirts and the Gestapo. While it could be argued that Martin Niemoller was right and we need to stop this at it's root, in deference to the 11-17 million murdered Jews, ethnic Poles, Soviets, homosexuals and people with disabilities, can we agree to not use that language?

Secondly, we have seen time and time again, police over reacting to these Occupy crowds. Not ok. Not ok by any stretch of the imagination. We cannot be excused away as dirty hippies. I'm a businesswoman. And I am the 99%. I am appalled by what I saw at the Davis campus. The Chancellor is in the middle of a horrific shit storm just like the Mayor of Oakland. I hope when this shakes out we will find that she is as horrified as we are with the the cops did to those students and professors and the cops are fired.

We have to be vigilant and we have to understand what this is about. It's about equality. It's not about socialism or even communism. It's about every body pitching in their fair share. Most of the ultra wealthy in this country pay less taxes than I do. And have way more influence. Shouldn't we have an equal amount of influence? Shouldn't corporations be legal entities, not "persons"? Shouldn't the people who screwed up this country, the bankers in particular, be held responsible for their actions? That's what I keep seeing from the OWS folks and I agree wholeheartedly.

actually we use this language already in the sense that Bush created "Homeland" Security....a term only used by nazi germany and yet no one has mentioned that. that being said, i'm quite undecided on my position in this specific argument. i think it's a slippery slope. i'm just not sure if we're already on it or if not...do i wanna go there?

persiphone · 11-20-2011, 09:01 PM

yet another comparison. i don't have words for this one,

http://www.hermes-press.com/germany1930.htm

Cin · 11-20-2011, 09:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by persiphone

yet another comparison. i don't have words for this one,

http://www.hermes-press.com/germany1930.htm

Everybody and his brother uses the Nazi comparison. Maybe we need a fresh one.

persiphone · 11-20-2011, 09:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

Everybody and his brother uses the Nazi comparison. Maybe we need a fresh one.

i just think it's worth looking at. some are crazy some are not so crazy. i think there are valid points amidst the noise.

Diavolo · 11-20-2011, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

Everybody and his brother uses the Nazi comparison. Maybe we need a fresh one.

I personally believe that it is one of those events in history which must be held with the highest of reverence lest it ever happen again. Tossing the terms around in lesser instances cheapens the horror of the atrocities committed in Nazi Germany. IMHO.

While I believe we need to be ever vigilant and I do believe there is a faction in this country that wants to push us to that direction, I also have faith in this country as a whole. I have a deep faith in the occupiers.

If history does indeed repeat itself, let us not forget, the hippies were right. The Gulf of Tonkin never happened, it was the figment of the imagination of an over excited radioman...according to Robert McNamara himself! Vietnam was a sham. A political sham. So is what is happening now, but I don't believe we are heading down the road to Hitler's Germany as long as we stand up and say "No!" Not as long as we still have judges and lawyers and Congress members that stand up and say "No!" with us. Right now we do. We have people in government who see the wrong. If the other half of this country would stop watching Faux News and start paying attention we might get somewhere.

persiphone · 11-20-2011, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diavolo

I personally believe that it is one of those events in history which must be held with the highest of reverence lest it ever happen again. Tossing the terms around in lesser instances cheapens the horror of the atrocities committed in Nazi Germany. IMHO.

While I believe we need to be ever vigilant and I do believe there is a faction in this country that wants to push us to that direction, I also have faith in this country as a whole. I have a deep faith in the occupiers.

If history does indeed repeat itself, let us not forget, the hippies were right. The Gulf of Tonkin never happened, it was the figment of the imagination of an over excited radioman...according to Robert McNamara himself! Vietnam was a sham. A political sham. So is what is happening now, but I don't believe we are heading down the road to Hitler's Germany as long as we stand up and say "No!" Not as long as we still have judges and lawyers and Congress members that stand up and say "No!" with us. Right now we do. We have people in government who see the wrong. If the other half of this country would stop watching Faux News and start paying attention we might get somewhere.

but it HAS happened again. IS happening. in Africa. smh.

persiphone · 11-20-2011, 10:16 PM

current genocides happening right now~

In 2004, Yad Vashem, in response to the BBC documentary, "Access to Evil", which includes witness testimonies from camp survivors and a former guard of gas chambers and mass killings occurring systematically in the camps, called on the international community in 2004 to investigate “political genocide” in North Korea, yet no substantial action has been taken to this day to interven.

In September 2011, the Harvard International Review published an article which argued that North Korea was violating the UN Genocide Convention in every possible way, through its systematic killing of half-Chinese babies and religious groups

The ruling military regime in Burma is one of the world’s most oppressive and abusive. Currently, the Burmese government is involved in a military campaign against the largest indigenous ethnic group in Eastern Burma, the Karen. The Karen practice Christianity, whereas Burma is a mostly Buddhist nation. The militarized government has developed plans to eliminate those who do not fit in to what is thought of as being “Burmese.” Many Karen accuse the Burmese government of “ethnic cleansing” due to major counter-insurgency campaigns that have led to widespread mass atrocities against the Karen people. Such atrocities include summary execution, severe torture and rape, as well as forced labor, extortion and displacement. Aid agencies estimate that more than 200,000 Karen have been driven from their homes during the decades of conflict.

The “Darfur Genocide” refers to the current mass slaughter and rape of Darfuri men, women and children in Western Sudan. The killings began in 2003 and continue still today, as the first genocide in the 21st century.

The genocide is being carried out by a group of government-armed and funded Arab militias known as the Janjaweed (which loosely translates to ‘devils on horseback’). The Janjaweed systematically destroy Darfurians by burning villages, looting economic resources, polluting water sources, and murdering, raping, and torturing civilians. These militias are historic rivals of the main rebel groups, the Sudanese Liberation Movement (SLM), and the Justice and Equality Movement (JEM). As of today, over 480,000 people have been killed, and over 2.8 million people are displaced.

Since 1996, the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC; Congo) has been embroiled in violence that has killed as many as 5.4 million people. The conflict has been the world’s bloodiest since World War II. The First and Second Congo Wars, which sparked the violence, involved multiple foreign armies and investors from Rwanda, Zimbabwe, Angola, Namibia, Chad, Libya and Sudan, among others, and has been so devastating that it is sometimes called the “African World War.”

Fighting continues in the eastern parts of the country, destroying infrastructure, causing physical and psychological damage to civilians, and creating human rights violations on a mass scale. Rape is being used as a weapon of war, and large-scale plunder and murder are also occurring as part of efforts to displace people on resource-rich land.

Today, most of the fighting is taking place in North and South Kivu, on the DRC/Rwanda border. Some fighting is political, resulting from unrest caused by Hutu refugees from the Rwandan genocide now living in DRC, while other fighting results from an international demand for natural resources. DRC has large quantities of gold, copper, diamonds, and coltan (a mineral used in cell phones), which many parties desire to control for monetary reasons. However, money from the sales of these resources has not reached average citizens. Currently the education, healthcare, legal, and road systems are in shambles.

Since 1991, clan warfare has besieged Somalia. The United Nations has called the current situation in Somalia the “world’s worst humanitarian disaster.” At the end of January 2009, Sheikh Sharif Ahmed was elected President of Somalia with the hope that his administration will bring stability to Somalia and implement the Djibouti Peace Process of 2000. However, violence has continued unabated. At the end of 2009, nearly 700,000 Somalis were under the responsibility of the United Nations High Commission for Refugees, constituting the third largest refugee group in the world after war-afflicted Iraq and Afghanistan, respectively.

and here's the link in case anyone is interested~

http://worldwithoutgenocide.org/about-us

atomiczombie · 11-20-2011, 10:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Diavolo

I personally believe that it is one of those events in history which must be held with the highest of reverence lest it ever happen again. Tossing the terms around in lesser instances cheapens the horror of the atrocities committed in Nazi Germany. IMHO.

I couldn't agree with this more. It's not just lesser instances. What the Germans did was on a whole different scale. They committed mass murder and were the most blatantly racist and oppressive regime in modern history.

What is going on today in the US is a crime; our "democracy" is a sham; our civil liberties are threatened and our freedoms are infringed upon. But we are not in danger of being rounded up into camps and being executed for our political beliefs. If it comes to a day where we are in danger of that, then I will say this is like the Nazis.

Corkey · 11-20-2011, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

I couldn't agree with this more. It's not just lesser instances. What the Germans did was on a whole different scale. They committed mass murder and were the most blatantly racist and oppressive regime in modern history.

What is going on today in the US is a crime; our "democracy" is a sham; our civil liberties are threatened and our freedoms are infringed upon. But we are not in danger of being rounded up into camps and being executed for our political beliefs. If it comes to a day where we are in danger of that, then I will say this is like the Nazis.

I prefer not to wait. That is exactly what happened in Nazi Germany, people thought it could never happen, it did, and history is repeating itself because good people think it will never happen to them.

persiphone · 11-20-2011, 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

I couldn't agree with this more. It's not just lesser instances. What the Germans did was on a whole different scale. They committed mass murder and were the most blatantly racist and oppressive regime in modern history.

What is going on today in the US is a crime; our "democracy" is a sham; our civil liberties are threatened and our freedoms are infringed upon. But we are not in danger of being rounded up into camps and being executed for our political beliefs. If it comes to a day where we are in danger of that, then I will say this is like the Nazis.

instead we have for profit prisons *shudder* and that horrid guantanamo, where your rights and all moral reason go right out the window.

edited to add....you don't need to be foreign and/or of middle eastern descent to be sent to guantanamo, incidentally.

Diavolo · 11-20-2011, 11:01 PM

Persiphone, I didn't say that genocide isn't happening in other countries. It is. Arguably we just deposed two ruthless dictators that were doing exactly that. But that's not the subject here. The subject is occupy wall street and the references are not appropriate to what the police are doing.

Are the police breaking the law? Yes. Will there be repercussions from it? Probably. But they aren't rounding up OWS protesters in the US and putting them in death camps. And outrage still remains at the brutality. When that stops we have a problem.

kannon · 11-20-2011, 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

I couldn't agree with this more. It's not just lesser instances. What the Germans did was on a whole different scale. They committed mass murder and were the most blatantly racist and oppressive regime in modern history.

What is going on today in the US is a crime; our "democracy" is a sham; our civil liberties are threatened and our freedoms are infringed upon. But we are not in danger of being rounded up into camps and being executed for our political beliefs. If it comes to a day where we are in danger of that, then I will say this is like the Nazis.

That depends on who you are. Something like 10% of black men in their 20's are incarcerated. A disproportionate number of those executed are black men.

11-20-2011, 09:01 PM	#2
persiphone Timed Out How Do You Identify?: femme Relationship Status: on a hedonistic hiatus Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Permanently Banned 12/28/2011 Posts: 462 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 1,574 Thanked 1,562 Times in 380 Posts Rep Power: 0	yet another comparison. i don't have words for this one, http://www.hermes-press.com/germany1930.htm

11-20-2011, 10:16 PM	#7
persiphone Timed Out How Do You Identify?: femme Relationship Status: on a hedonistic hiatus Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Permanently Banned 12/28/2011 Posts: 462 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 1,574 Thanked 1,562 Times in 380 Posts Rep Power: 0	current genocides happening right now~ In 2004, Yad Vashem, in response to the BBC documentary, "Access to Evil", which includes witness testimonies from camp survivors and a former guard of gas chambers and mass killings occurring systematically in the camps, called on the international community in 2004 to investigate “political genocide” in North Korea, yet no substantial action has been taken to this day to interven. In September 2011, the Harvard International Review published an article which argued that North Korea was violating the UN Genocide Convention in every possible way, through its systematic killing of half-Chinese babies and religious groups The ruling military regime in Burma is one of the world’s most oppressive and abusive. Currently, the Burmese government is involved in a military campaign against the largest indigenous ethnic group in Eastern Burma, the Karen. The Karen practice Christianity, whereas Burma is a mostly Buddhist nation. The militarized government has developed plans to eliminate those who do not fit in to what is thought of as being “Burmese.” Many Karen accuse the Burmese government of “ethnic cleansing” due to major counter-insurgency campaigns that have led to widespread mass atrocities against the Karen people. Such atrocities include summary execution, severe torture and rape, as well as forced labor, extortion and displacement. Aid agencies estimate that more than 200,000 Karen have been driven from their homes during the decades of conflict. The “Darfur Genocide” refers to the current mass slaughter and rape of Darfuri men, women and children in Western Sudan. The killings began in 2003 and continue still today, as the first genocide in the 21st century. The genocide is being carried out by a group of government-armed and funded Arab militias known as the Janjaweed (which loosely translates to ‘devils on horseback’). The Janjaweed systematically destroy Darfurians by burning villages, looting economic resources, polluting water sources, and murdering, raping, and torturing civilians. These militias are historic rivals of the main rebel groups, the Sudanese Liberation Movement (SLM), and the Justice and Equality Movement (JEM). As of today, over 480,000 people have been killed, and over 2.8 million people are displaced. Since 1996, the Democratic Republic of Congo (DRC; Congo) has been embroiled in violence that has killed as many as 5.4 million people. The conflict has been the world’s bloodiest since World War II. The First and Second Congo Wars, which sparked the violence, involved multiple foreign armies and investors from Rwanda, Zimbabwe, Angola, Namibia, Chad, Libya and Sudan, among others, and has been so devastating that it is sometimes called the “African World War.” Fighting continues in the eastern parts of the country, destroying infrastructure, causing physical and psychological damage to civilians, and creating human rights violations on a mass scale. Rape is being used as a weapon of war, and large-scale plunder and murder are also occurring as part of efforts to displace people on resource-rich land. Today, most of the fighting is taking place in North and South Kivu, on the DRC/Rwanda border. Some fighting is political, resulting from unrest caused by Hutu refugees from the Rwandan genocide now living in DRC, while other fighting results from an international demand for natural resources. DRC has large quantities of gold, copper, diamonds, and coltan (a mineral used in cell phones), which many parties desire to control for monetary reasons. However, money from the sales of these resources has not reached average citizens. Currently the education, healthcare, legal, and road systems are in shambles. Since 1991, clan warfare has besieged Somalia. The United Nations has called the current situation in Somalia the “world’s worst humanitarian disaster.” At the end of January 2009, Sheikh Sharif Ahmed was elected President of Somalia with the hope that his administration will bring stability to Somalia and implement the Djibouti Peace Process of 2000. However, violence has continued unabated. At the end of 2009, nearly 700,000 Somalis were under the responsibility of the United Nations High Commission for Refugees, constituting the third largest refugee group in the world after war-afflicted Iraq and Afghanistan, respectively. and here's the link in case anyone is interested~ http://worldwithoutgenocide.org/about-us

11-20-2011, 11:01 PM	#11
Diavolo Member How Do You Identify?: Butch Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Wine Cellar Posts: 163 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 130 Thanked 433 Times in 117 Posts Rep Power: 3304128	Persiphone, I didn't say that genocide isn't happening in other countries. It is. Arguably we just deposed two ruthless dictators that were doing exactly that. But that's not the subject here. The subject is occupy wall street and the references are not appropriate to what the police are doing. Are the police breaking the law? Yes. Will there be repercussions from it? Probably. But they aren't rounding up OWS protesters in the US and putting them in death camps. And outrage still remains at the brutality. When that stops we have a problem.