OCCUPY WALL STREET

[ruby_woo]

Honestly, I've been wondering how much of the violence is due to simple disdain for the protestors? My uncle has been cop for about 20 years, and he's been going on lately about how back his day he was too busy focusing on how he could contribute to society and how he would support himself and how it never crossed his mind that anyone owed him anything blahblahblah. Then all his cop buddies chime in and agree.

And he's not even one of the aggressive jerk cops. He rescues kittens.

I'm not trying to present "anecdata" in an argument or anything, but it's been hard for me to ignore what's right in front of me. Like AtLast, I could be talking up my own rear.

[Cin]

Originally Posted by ruby_woo

Honestly, I've been wondering how much of the violence is due to simple disdain for the protestors?

So when cops have disdain for someone they can just spray them in the face with pepper spray? Even when they are just standing there doing nothing, like those women at Occupy Wall St caught on camera being sprayed in the face by a white shirt for no discernible reason. You can open their mouth and spray pepper spray down their throat if you have disdain for them. Or you shoot them with rubber bullets when they are asking you if they are okay or too close if you have disdain for them. Or if the cops have disdain they can beat the crap out of a transperson or a queer. If cops have disdain they can act as they please, is that the idea? Too bad they don’t have some disdain for child molesters and rapists.

[ruby_woo]

Originally Posted by Miss Tick

So when cops have disdain for someone they can just spray them in the face with pepper spray? Even when they are just standing there doing nothing, like those women at Occupy Wall St caught on camera being sprayed in the face by a white shirt for no discernible reason. You can open their mouth and spray pepper spray down their throat if you have disdain for them. Or you shoot them with rubber bullets when they are asking you if they are okay or too close if you have disdain for them. Or if the cops have disdain they can beat the crap out of a transperson or a queer. If cops have disdain they can act as they please, is that the idea? Too bad they don’t have some disdain for child molesters and rapists.

I'm not saying I think it's acceptable at all, definitely not was I was trying to imply...

But could lack of training + disdain for the group in front of you lead to making jerk decisions? Maybe.

In Slater's post (sorry, I don't know how to double quote), he mentioned Norm Stamper saying "The paramilitary bureaucracy and the culture it engenders—a black-and-white world in which police unions serve above all to protect the brotherhood—is worse today than it was in the 1990s. Such agencies inevitably view protesters as the enemy."

[SoNotHer]

I appreciate your voice, Ruby Woo, and I am really grateful to hear about your uncle. I talk with the police in my neighborhood, and I have worked with some very compassionate police on the issue of prostitution.

I think we have to start to address perceptions. I think we have to talk about why protestors are perceived as malcontents with no real point or cause and how that view gets used. Perhaps some are, or perhaps some are the like the people I've stood with who have lost homes, have no healthcare, have lost all of their personal savings in a bad 401K, an underwater mortgage or a medical bankruptcy.

Personally, I find the desire to protest and speak up for a more equal and just society not only welcome but brave and one of the most hopeful things I have seen in my voting lifetime.

But most of all, I think we have to allow people to exercise their right to disagree and to even protest without fear of violence. Without these, I think we're looking at something other than a democracy.

Originally Posted by ruby_woo

Honestly, I've been wondering how much of the violence is due to simple disdain for the protestors? My uncle has been cop for about 20 years, and he's been going on lately about how back his day he was too busy focusing on how he could contribute to society and how he would support himself and how it never crossed his mind that anyone owed him anything blahblahblah. Then all his cop buddies chime in and agree.

And he's not even one of the aggressive jerk cops. He rescues kittens.

I'm not trying to present "anecdata" in an argument or anything, but it's been hard for me to ignore what's right in front of me. Like AtLast, I could be talking up my own rear.

[Corkey]

http://www.fictionews.com/news/105/B...ews-story.html

Good news for UC Davis students.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Corkey

http://www.fictionews.com/news/105/B...ews-story.html

Good news for UC Davis students.

Sorry all looks bogus.

[Toughy]

When individual police officers assault peaceful citizens with chemical or other 'non-lethal' weapons they should be arrested for assault at a minimum...

If individual police officers get away with this......a police state follows...

Seattle woman miscarries after police assault her despite her yelling she is pregnant and wants to leave....

2 Iraq war veterans are hospitalized due to police assault in Oakland

the press says the Occupy folks make it unsafe and the Chancellor of UC Davis is AFRAID of her students....

Bush the shrub wins....be damn afraid .....

[Diavolo]

It's interesting. I'm watching Nixon right now. While Oliver Stone takes way too many liberties, the footage of real protesters and the rhetoric of the government is real. And it hasn't changed in 40 years. It reminds me of what we are hearing from Faux News right now. And the Nuevo Hippies are right now too. Or are they Neo Hippies?

[ruffryder]

There is a correct way to use pepper spray and tasers. People authorized to do so do go through training for this. They also are told when to use it and to what aggression. With UC Davis the question is were the students ready to be forceful and not comply? We do know they were asked to leave. Some law enforcement people debating this say the officers should have proceeded to arrest them first and if they did not comply then give the warning to comply or be sprayed. For some reason these officers felt threatened? .. or felt the need to just spray.. which is where the debate comes up and why they did this. My guess was because the students were asked to leave, was it justified? I say no. I guess we will find out. I definitely think this case will determine how pepper spray and force is proceeded with in the future.

[AtLast]

I absolutely disagree with what has been going on in terms of peaceful assembly and the use of tear gas, etc. to disperse them.

I have to speqk up about the fact that not all OWS demonstrators have been non-violent. Although, the case in SF wherein a woman slashed 2 officers (one in the face) with an exacto knife (which she stole from an artist showing at a street art fair nearby) was not peaceful assembly. Now, it looks like she and the guy she was with were hanging out at the SF encampment and not really OWS people. Most of the attacks on police with bottles, etc. all over the US have been done by anarchist groups or people just there to party. They do not represent the core of OWS demonstrators at all.

This always happens and I do think the cops need to protect themselves. This is a complex set of circumstances. Many of the OWS folks have let the homeless and other groups share space simply due to feeling the pain of disenfranchised people. The non-violent OWS folks are not at fault for a few lashing out at police, but, I just can't sit back and say it has all been peaceful or that police have some things to worry about. How do they know who is safe and not going to strike-out?

In no way do I support what happened at UCD- and I think that the Admin and the campus police department is at fault for failing to train officers for these kinds of protests. Also, I do think there were rogue officers involved that would act that way no matter what.

I sure don't put the actions of a very few "outsiders" that have been violent on the movement as a whole. But, there have been incidences of people attacking officers. This is where I think "knowing" the population is really important and that the first thing that happens should be communication between the campus police chief and demonstrators that can speak to what is planned and who might not be really part of the protest.

The UCD police officers were wrong and I hope prosecuted outside of the university in criminal court. Those students were not posing any kind of physical threat. But other people have. Not many, but it has gone on.

[atomiczombie]

National Day of Action to Stop (and Reverse) Foreclosures

December 6 will be a big day of action for the Occupy Wall Street movement. #OWS will join the struggle of families and communities that have been on the front lines of a struggle for economic justice. We will stand in solidarity and ask our fellow occupations to join us for a national day of action on the foreclosure crisis. We are fighting Wall Street's reach on every block, every farm, every house in America with sit-ins at foreclosed properties to right this moral injustice.

The Occupy movement is born of the simple belief that humanity could meet our common needs if not for the predation and greed of the very few.

Nowhere is this disparity of wealth and power more evident than in the struggle to secure the human right to housing.

In a nation that puts the right to housing at the center of its founding dream, millions of people have lost their homes or fear that they soon will because of the foreclosure crisis. Wall Street created this crisis with lies and greed. And Washington, instead of investigating Wall Street and banks, is cutting back room deals to let bankers escape justice for their crimes.

Wall Street turned a fundamental human need into a badly rigged casino game with fraudulent lending practices and corrupt securitization. They destroyed our economy, kicked tens of thousands of people illegally out of their homes, and are now using a small fraction of the money they stole to buy off politicians and settle for far less than they owe.

More information to come.

Contact: occupyourhomes@gmail.com
On Twitter: @OccupyOurHomes
Facebook page: http://www.facebook.com/events/304693926222145/

LINK: http://occupywallst.org/article/dece...eet-goes-home/

[SoNotHer]

I'm happy to know 12/6 :-)

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

LINK: http://occupywallst.org/article/dece...eet-goes-home/

[Diavolo]

My business puts me smack in the middle of the foreclosure debacle. And I've seen it all. Seriously. All. I've been beating a drum on the subject, but it falls on deaf ears. Here's a link to a particularly bad man who still doesn't get it.

http://www.dsnews.com/articles/baum-...ose-2011-11-22

He blames a NYT columnist for the failure of his law firm. The truth is is firm was doomed to fail because of it's depraved corporate culture. The NYT columnist was just the means to the end.

[atomiczombie]

Originally Posted by Diavolo

My business puts me smack in the middle of the foreclosure debacle. And I've seen it all. Seriously. All. I've been beating a drum on the subject, but it falls on deaf ears. Here's a link to a particularly bad man who still doesn't get it.

http://www.dsnews.com/articles/baum-...ose-2011-11-22

He blames a NYT columnist for the failure of his law firm. The truth is is firm was doomed to fail because of it's depraved corporate culture. The NYT columnist was just the means to the end.

I remember seeing those disgusting Halloween office party pictures a couple weeks ago on Countdown with Keith Olbermann. I have no sympathy for this guy.

[SoNotHer]

MYTH #1: The congressional Super Committee failed because both sides refuse to compromise.


REALITY: The Super Committee failed because Republicans’ number one, non-negotiable priority is to protect millionaires and billionaires from paying even one more penny in taxes.1 Democrats repeatedly offered deep spending cuts (far deeper than most progressives would like) in exchange for raising taxes on the wealthy and closing corporate loopholes, only to be refused again and again.2 So even though the vast majority of Americans say they want to protect Social Security, Medicare, and Medicaid benefits, and raise taxes on the rich and corporations,3 that won’t happen until Republicans put aside their extremist stance.


MYTH #2: Nobody knows what Occupy Wall Street is about.


REALITY: Occupy Wall Street may not have a formal list of demands, but anyone who’s been paying attention understands the core problems that occupiers are protesting–that corporations have far too much power in our political system, that Wall Street banks crashed our economy but were never held accountable, and that the richest 400 Americans have more wealth than half of all Americans–156 million people–combined.4


MYTH #3: Occupiers should stop protesting and just get a job.


REALITY: As anybody who’s looked for a job in the last few years knows, there just aren’t jobs out there. That’s a big part of why occupiers are protesting. In September, there were four times as many unemployed people as job openings.5 And for those who are lucky enough to find a job, median wages today are lower than they were a decade ago.6


MYTH #4: Occupy Wall Street is intent on provoking violence, especially against banks and the police.


REALITY: Occupations across the country have committed themselves to nonviolent protest, in the greatest traditions of protest movements. Some of their protests have been met with acts of police violence–tear gas, pepper spray, rubber bullets7–but in many cases, protesters have reminded police that the police are part of the 99%, too.8 And in the few cases when people have shown up at occupations and committed acts of vandalism, other protesters have even repaired their acts of vandalism.9


MYTH #5: The biggest crisis facing our country is out of control government spending.


REALITY: The two biggest drivers of our deficit–by far–are the economic crash and the Bush tax cuts.10 We have millions of people out of work, corporations hoarding cash, and factories sitting idle. If we put all those people back to work–rebuilding infrastructure, educating our children, and researching new technologies–it’ll shrink the deficit and make our economy stronger for the long haul. And we can easily afford it if we make sure the rich–who are taking home a larger percentage of income than any time since 191711–pay their fair share.

[Ciaran]

Originally Posted by AtLast

I have to speqk up about the fact that not all OWS demonstrators have been non-violent. Although, the case in SF wherein a woman slashed 2 officers (one in the face) with an exacto knife (which she stole from an artist showing at a street art fair nearby) was not peaceful assembly. Now, it looks like she and the guy she was with were hanging out at the SF encampment and not really OWS people. Most of the attacks on police with bottles, etc. all over the US have been done by anarchist groups or people just there to party. They do not represent the core of OWS demonstrators at all.

As someone who is admittedly and openly sceptical about the Occupy movement, this is one of the aspects that I struggle with. On the one hand the Occupy movement tries to portray itself as representing all, or almost all (99%) of society, uses rhetoric and, on occasions, imagery that attracts anarchists and, worse, those with no sense of social responsibility ... and, yet, distances itself from the consequences that result.

The desecration of St Paul's Cathedral here in London is the perfect case in point.

[atomiczombie]

Originally Posted by Ciaran

As someone who is admittedly and openly sceptical about the Occupy movement, this is one of the aspects that I struggle with. On the one hand the Occupy movement tries to portray itself as representing all, or almost all (99%) of society, uses rhetoric and, on occasions, imagery that attracts anarchists and, worse, those with no sense of social responsibility ... and, yet, distances itself from the consequences that result.

The desecration of St Paul's Cathedral here in London is the perfect case in point.

Funny, I think Occupy is calling on the world to be more socially responsible. Social responsibility is really it's core message.

I think it is really important to understand that Occupy is about peaceful protest and non-violence. Any riff-raff elements out there who do cause trouble don't represent Occupy. I don't like it when people look at those few anarchists and trouble makers who show up at peaceful protests and cause trouble, and assume that they represent the protestors. The Occupy movement doesn't actively try to attract anarchists. Anarchists just see an opportunity to make trouble so they show up. Desecration of property is not in any way a goal of or condoned by the Occupy movement.

[SoNotHer]

I'm stealing this from Ruby Woo's post on another page. I hope you all here in the States had a good holiday today. :-)

[Kätzchen]

AZ,
thank you for the nudge about my participation in this forum thread.

I've been very quiet... When I'm quiet, it can mean a number of things but most generally, my being quiet in this instance (OWS, et al) concerns knowing certain people in my region who play instrumental roles, publicly.

When I see them make particular decisions that do not square with my reality, I sit up and take notice and listen with an acuteness to detail. I try to gather as much information as I can - verbal, non-verbal, hidden elements in various fields of interest, so that I am able to gather some sort of meaning that makes sense not only to me, but helps me to understand them better as well. Sometimes I am able to understand better and other times my own trained incapacities limit my ability to see a fuller picture of what is transpiring.

I'm not happy with some of the decisions made by key officials in Portland.

I'm not able to deliberate on those feelings or things I am privy to or what kind of meaning-making I am getting from everything that transpired in our city.

What I can say this morning is more along the lines of a comment and thanks to Diavalo's recent post on organizational culture, I am able to say that Diavalo's observation on key elements in organizational culture illustrate a key principle in Organizational culture: Organizational culture (no matter if the culture we speak about resides in the OWS movement, institutional houses of power, familial, community, workplace or such) mirrors problematics in tangible or intangible ways with respect to how values, decisions or a sharing of goals culminates over time.

Whether an organization succeeds, stumbles and recovers, or fails, we can examine what elements of culture within the company and community it resides in and take note of what elements contributed to success or failure or a stalling of growth necessary to bring all elements together to produce an orchestration of success or failure.

IMO, the most successful organizations resist isomorphic elements and utilize sets of data key in determining the breadth or depth in order to orchestrate and administer successful mission priori.

Thank you for your observation and comments Diavalo.

One thought that has stayed with me since the inception of the OWS movement is that greater care to detail of organizational success might be worth a closer fine-toothed examination for clues on maintaining strength and equilibrium at optimal peak performance to withstand isomorphic tendencies that impale organizational success. A field marshalling of logistical detail.

That's all I've got today and I wish each of you a beautiful holiday weekend,

~D

[Ciaran]

Originally Posted by atomiczombie

Desecration of property is not in any way a goal of or condoned by the Occupy movement.

Who actually speaks for the Occupy movement? Who decides or articulates what its goals actually are? I'm struggling to identify who or what does this.

Desecration of property is certainly what has happened at St Paul's Cathedral in London. Rightly or wrongly, the "Occupy" movement has been perceived by many here in the UK as either participating in or supporting that desecration or, alternatively, standing back passively and enabling it to happen.

As a result, sympathy for the "Occupy" movement has fallen, certainly here in London, in recent weeks as this protest continues directly outside a place of worship.