FTM's Attracted to Femmes

[The_Lady_Snow]

I have make up on my hair did an old sweat shir pj bottoms and flip flops..

Would this be considered "high femme"?

Why not just Femme cause that's wha I am.. High to me perpetuates hierarchy. There is NO hierarchy in Femme we just are..

[SweetJane]

I have never been high maintenance---ever in any sense of the word. And I'm not exactly high femme, though I can pull out all the stops for a special occasion.

But I am femme most assuredly. It really is an attitude.

I think that in years past I didn't invest in myself as I do now. And that's necessary. Anyone, but especially a femme, needs to have clothes they love and that fit and flatter, personal products (makeup, perfume, hair products---as you guys have your favorites) that make them feel confident and special, and whatever else that enhances her (or hys/his) self-esteem. Though we don't need that to produce our own personal strut or swagger, they do help.

High maintenance (financial or emotional) can impact a relationship IF the person (femme or butch/ftm/man) puts her (or hys/his) needs/wants first to the point that the other person feels used or discounted. Drama factors into this as well.

The accoutrements of a person's personal style shouldn't control a person's behavior.

Femme does not equal high maintenance. High femme shouldn't either. But society expects the cost to be high because we assume that it takes a lot of work to be attractive. Well, some people look amazing with just soap and water. It's an inner beauty that comes through.

And many of us femmes will be very frugal with the elements of our personal style, caring for our clothes, handbags, shoes, and being very economical with our makeup and scents. We know how much they cost and it is our decisions to take a part of our paychecks to replace them as we are able. I would NEVER expect someone else to pay my expenses in any fashion.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I have make up on my hair did an old sweat shir pj bottoms and flip flops..

Would this be considered "high femme"?

Why not just Femme cause that's wha I am.. High to me perpetuates hierarchy. There is NO hierarchy in Femme we just are..

I would consider you beautiful, even if your hair was in curlers, you hadn't had a pedi in a year and you had a smudge of mustard on your cheek.

Here's how I see the whole hierarchy/high femme/etc thing:

There's a balance to the Universe. It's not so bad to say someone's a 'high femme', except that...in saying that....you are implying that someone else has to be a 'low femme' and who the Hell wants to have LOW in their flippin' identity???

I'm not so against labels or descriptions or adjectives of pleasure to describe members of our community, but then again, I like order and things to be nice and neat and compartmentalized.

It's when we use terms that may or may not describe someone innocently while kicking someone else, whether intentional or not. To push someone 'up', someone else is pushed 'down'.

I wish our community would adapt new descriptors. We have the power and the intelligence to do so. When that happens, I'm going to be a fucking unicorn femme. Let's see someone make THAT a bad thing.

[Library_girl]

Originally Posted by Gemme

It's when we use terms that may or may not describe someone innocently while kicking someone else, whether intentional or not. To push someone 'up', someone else is pushed 'down'.

I wish our community would adapt new descriptors. We have the power and the intelligence to do so. When that happens, I'm going to be a fucking unicorn femme. Let's see someone make THAT a bad thing.

This thread is really interesting to me, especially since I label myself as High Femme. First, I think a lot of us would say that we get to define our own labels. At least, that's what I like to think. The term "high femme" is an old term, as far as I know. To me, High Femme means really femme, extra femme, super femme, lots o' femme goin' on. And to me, it gives a little hint of old school, which is also part of my identity. In my mind, it DOES NOT mean "high maintenance" at all. I agree that high maintenance is a negative term that conjures up thoughts of someone, anyone of any identity, who requires a great amount of attention and care, be that emotional, financial, sexual, or all of the above. Anyone can be high maintenance, and it has nothing to do with High Femme. It's just a coincidence that the word High appears in both.

Also, in my opinion, calling someone or yourself a High Femme does not push that femme "upwards" to a higher level of femme-ness. There is no Femme Summer Camp (although that would be so fun!) or Femme Graduation, or Femme PhD. (If such a thing is ever invented, I want one!)

Moreover, I feel that High Femme does not suggest that there is a lower form of femme. It's interesting that so many people see things in those dichotomous terms. If this thing is high, there must be a low. If this thing is big, there must be a small. That's just not always the case. Sometimes something just IS.

We do have the power to adapt new descriptors, and we already have. Twenty-something years ago, when I was new to the b/f world, we didn't have words like boi or hy, or stone femme. Transgender was a new word. Gender queer didn't exist. Queer was being tossed around as the new cool word to use. Stone Butch Blues and The Femme Mystique had not been written yet. So as our culture evolves, our vocabulary evolves right along with us. It just takes a little while...... Meanwhile, I think a mutual respect of the labels we choose and don't choose to apply to ourselves would be fabulous. Just my humble and long-winded opinion.

[Tommi]

"Back in the day"......my father called me queer when I was 4 and it was not a good thing. He called me this because, I suppose of lableing he needed to identify his kid. The one who Gramma nicknamed Tommi~the tomboy who chased the little really really girlie girls , who probably grew up to be femme's ~probably really high femme's. He meant queer in a realllly nasty way Back in the Day, and I knew that those femme girls would always be the rage and the cherries in my bowl.

[Leigh]

Just came in to visit and say hi

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by Library_girl

This thread is really interesting to me, especially since I label myself as High Femme. First, I think a lot of us would say that we get to define our own labels. At least, that's what I like to think. The term "high femme" is an old term, as far as I know. To me, High Femme means really femme, extra femme, super femme, lots o' femme goin' on. And to me, it gives a little hint of old school, which is also part of my identity. In my mind, it DOES NOT mean "high maintenance" at all. I agree that high maintenance is a negative term that conjures up thoughts of someone, anyone of any identity, who requires a great amount of attention and care, be that emotional, financial, sexual, or all of the above. Anyone can be high maintenance, and it has nothing to do with High Femme. It's just a coincidence that the word High appears in both.

Also, in my opinion, calling someone or yourself a High Femme does not push that femme "upwards" to a higher level of femme-ness. There is no Femme Summer Camp (although that would be so fun!) or Femme Graduation, or Femme PhD. (If such a thing is ever invented, I want one!)

Moreover, I feel that High Femme does not suggest that there is a lower form of femme. It's interesting that so many people see things in those dichotomous terms. If this thing is high, there must be a low. If this thing is big, there must be a small. That's just not always the case. Sometimes something just IS.

We do have the power to adapt new descriptors, and we already have. Twenty-something years ago, when I was new to the b/f world, we didn't have words like boi or hy, or stone femme. Transgender was a new word. Gender queer didn't exist. Queer was being tossed around as the new cool word to use. Stone Butch Blues and The Femme Mystique had not been written yet. So as our culture evolves, our vocabulary evolves right along with us. It just takes a little while...... Meanwhile, I think a mutual respect of the labels we choose and don't choose to apply to ourselves would be fabulous. Just my humble and long-winded opinion.

Actually, the term Stone has been around for a very, very long time. It just hasn't been acknowledged along the way. And, as Tommi mentioned, Queer has also been around for a very long time. Some of us have been fortunate enough to bring words back that were used in the past to torment and ridicule and turned them around. We've taken them back and redefined them for ourselves instead of others defining us.

Anyone can label themselves what they wish. It's not for anyone to say that someone is not the label that they proclaim.

HOWEVER

There is a hierarchy, for femmes as well as butches. Sometimes it's joked about....."Oh, she's not butch enough for me".....or, on the flip side..."She wears ten inch heels and full face make up all the time....she's too femmey foo foo for me"....but it's there, nonetheless.

Part of the issue, I think, stems from the fact that femme is equated to "womanly" things like heels and purses and frilly dresses and perfectly coiffed hair. And those femmes who are just 'as femme' as the next girl in heels and a foo foo dress, but they wear jeans and a tee and have grease under their nails, get grief because they don't 'look the part'.

It's heteronormative and it promotes a hierarchy. We are all guilty, at one time or another, of contributing to it.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by Leigh

Just came in to visit and say hi

Hi and

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I have make up on my hair did an old sweat shir pj bottoms and flip flops..

Would this be considered "high femme"?

Why not just Femme cause that's wha I am.. High to me perpetuates hierarchy. There is NO hierarchy in Femme we just are..

I guess for me, it is how someone uses the term "high femme". If people are saying a "high femme" is the type of femme all femmes should strive to be, or is better than any other type of femme, than to me they are talking hierarchies and I do struggle with seeing that as a good thing. If they are just using it as a way to describe what kind of femme they are, then I don't see that as them defining themselves any differently than a femme who describes herself as a "sporty femme". Just a different type of femme. That is how I see the term being used in a "neutral" way....it is being used as a descriptor then, with no value judgement attached to it.

To me it reminds me of the Episcopal church. I think there is something like High and Low Episcopal churches? The "high" ones are more similar to Catholic and the "low" ones are more similar to Prostestant in their thinking/services. (Or something like that? Person an Episcopalian could explain it better). Neither is better than the other, just different.

I think the problem is the name. "High" often means better in our society.

----------------------

ETA: I am now remembering femmes saying that in the past b-f culture supported a hierarchy of high femme being something all femmes should strive to be. Is this accurate? Is that still the case today? I am curious to hear from femmes on this.

[DapperButch]

Perhaps I could have just read Gemme's post and then thanked her instead of writing a post with similar points.

(not saying she agrees with me/said the esxact same thing, I am just saying that her post would have saved me some thinking and subsequent posting time)