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Old 03-21-2012, 06:35 PM   #1
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Queer is probably among the most stable of my identities simply because the very implication of queer is completely open and not attached to sex/gender or who you fuck, but has more to do with dynamics and existing outside a sexually normative framework.

I actually see queer identity, for myself, as important especially when in Canada there's still a lot of G/L folks and straight-identified folks who think rights struggles are over since marriage equality happened (without challenging the oppressive origins and implications of the marriage institution) and basically are still on a crusade to prove that "we're just like everyone else." Basically the party Pride culture, white gay male "professionals" and the white picket fence.

Whereas being politically queer, to me, means making the challenge to normativity (sexual, ability, racial, gender, sexed etc.), and not just to the "heterosexual" world. Queer is important to me because it's an identity that really acknowledges its function as an identity within a social/political context.
First, Ender, thank you for this post! I broke this section into three parts so I could focus on your points; I hope that's okay.

Thank you, in particular, for validating my reaction to the intense and sometimes domineering focus on marriage rights, that I've experienced in the LGBT community.

What's been hard for me—since it became a prominent issue when Clinton was first elected—was that marriage seemed the ONLY social justice issue visible to the white, professional gay and lesbian community I was part of.

As I gradually became more involved in the literacy community (and left my wealthy white lover and her friends), my companions and friends included more straight people, more people of color, more academics and writers, older people, and in general, people who were extremely left in their politics.

And for the first time—now detached from a middle- and upper-class GLBT core of people—I was able to talk critically about the institution of marriage without someone pressuring me to get on the pro-marriage bandwagon and essentially, join them in emulating straight culture, right down to the registry at Bloomingdale's.

Now, many years later, and with marriage legal in my state, I've had more than a couple women say to me, about my relationship, So when are you two getting married?

And suddenly I feel pressure to marry, and even have some empathy for straight women hitting a certain age, in a culture that has capitalistic, religious, or just traditional reasons for wanting her to be married.

(Which is not to say, marriage doesn't protect women (and sometimes men) financially.)

Thank you for making a space where I could say that.

Also, thank you for speaking so clearly about what it means to be queer.

You wrote, "...the very implication of queer is completely open and not attached to sex/gender or who you fuck, but has more to do with dynamics and existing outside a sexually normative framework."

I'm queer!

I don't embrace "femme" anymore, because my partner (who looks and acts in what I would identify as a very butch manner!), doesn't relate to the butch-femme identities or culture, and since my femme identity was always contextual—I put it out there as a shortcut in my search for a butch lover—it felt like one hand clapping for a while, and then I just didn't "feel" it at all.

Queer, as you describe it, is me to a T. Yes, I exist "outside a sexually normative framework"—totally.

PS, I know many women ID as femme whether their lover is butch, trans, a lesbian, whatever—I respect you and ask you not to denigrate the contextual nature of my femme ID. Thank you!
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Old 03-22-2012, 09:33 PM   #2
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[COLOR="DimGray"][FONT="Fixedsys"][SIZE="3"]And for the first time—now detached from a middle- and upper-class GLBT core of people—I was able to talk critically about the institution of marriage without someone pressuring me to get on the pro-marriage bandwagon and essentially, join them in emulating straight culture, right down to the registry at Bloomingdale's.

Now, many years later, and with marriage legal in my state, I've had more than a couple women say to me, about my relationship, So when are you two getting married?

And suddenly I feel pressure to marry, and even have some empathy for straight women hitting a certain age, in a culture that has capitalistic, religious, or just traditional reasons for wanting her to be married.
Yeah, I really think the next real struggle for the queer community is going to be (and probably already is) really getting out there and talking about why gaining marriage equality may not have actually meant that much for queer rights. Obviously, every person should have the same rights as others so that if a straight cis couple are legally able to marry, then same-sex couples and trans people should also be able to marry legally. At the same time, there need to be more discussions on why promoting or implying that monogamous, traditional marriages/relationships with the intent to marry is somehow more "natural," "acceptable," and "meaningful" than other relationships are harmful ideas to continue to promote. We're just supporting the same social framework that allowed queer folks to be seen as "unnatural" and hated to begin with.

And I agree, a lot of spaces do really make it hard for people to talk about. I remember a few months ago, myself and a few others trying to explain to a "queer ally" why we objected to the normalisation of same-sex marriage. Basically, he thought we were homophobic and oppressive, and that we were trying to say that people shouldn't have equal rights (which isn't what we were saying at all). It's unfortunate that that reaction happens a lot.
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Old 03-23-2012, 11:34 PM   #3
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Honestly, I would like the ability to get married, come what may. Mind you, theoritically, given that I am primarily attracted to women, and.......... I am a pre-op mtf, I could get married, right now. Still, sooner or later, I am going to have GRS, too, so then what? In either case, I want people to have the freedom to marry whom they choose, regardless of gender.
However, I am not saying that monogamous marriages are the only way to go, either. Polyamory should certainly be legalized and accepted as well, to my mind.
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Old 03-24-2012, 05:07 AM   #4
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Default as above i agree..

I think labeling is especially useful when someone is trying to figure out what feels good and where they fit socially..I think being a queer woman now is a lot different then it was 15 years ago when p.c was in and just about everything else was thrown "out" (at least this was my experience)..having nothing for comparison was a bit hard on my psyche (being femme) so I can't imagine how difficult it may have been for transgender etc..so I don't see anything wrong with labeling if it helps you personally..what's not so appreciated is when someone else is doing the labeling..imo
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Old 03-25-2012, 11:26 AM   #5
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I think labeling is especially useful when someone is trying to figure out what feels good and where they fit socially..

I agree with this. For me, the label butch is an advertisement of who I am and what Im interested in.
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Old 03-25-2012, 02:15 PM   #6
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Interesting, EnderD, and I do think that you have some very, very good points for all to consider.
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Old 03-24-2012, 11:41 AM   #7
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...there need to be more discussions on why promoting or implying that monogamous, traditional marriages/relationships with the intent to marry is somehow more "natural," "acceptable," and "meaningful" than other relationships are harmful ideas to continue to promote. We're just supporting the same social framework that allowed queer folks to be seen as "unnatural" and hated to begin with.

...I remember a few months ago, myself and a few others trying to explain to a "queer ally" why we objected to the normalisation of same-sex marriage. Basically, he thought we were homophobic and oppressive, and that we were trying to say that people shouldn't have equal rights (which isn't what we were saying at all). It's unfortunate that that reaction happens a lot.

Yes, I have been in that situation, too! It would have been great to have a friend like you there, at the time.
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Old 03-24-2012, 11:16 PM   #8
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Labels can definitely be useful, but......... we have to remember that they are only general descriptions and not fully accurate.

As far as marriage goes, that produces legal and financial advantages that we are being denied, though straight people are not. This, to my mind, is wrong.

There are other things that we need, as a culture, though, that have been denied to us, this is absolutely certain. We shouldn't be subject to being fired or harrassed, simply because of our orientation or gender status. Nor should we have to put up with discrimination anywhere, because of this. Unfortunately, we still get this in our lives, and it is totally wrong. This needs to be changed.
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Old 03-25-2012, 09:43 AM   #9
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Labels can definitely be useful, but......... we have to remember that they are only general descriptions and not fully accurate.

As far as marriage goes, that produces legal and financial advantages that we are being denied, though straight people are not. This, to my mind, is wrong.

There are other things that we need, as a culture, though, that have been denied to us, this is absolutely certain. We shouldn't be subject to being fired or harrassed, simply because of our orientation or gender status. Nor should we have to put up with discrimination anywhere, because of this. Unfortunately, we still get this in our lives, and it is totally wrong. This needs to be changed.
It is wrong, but I also think it has to do with the American system. In Canada, there are virtually no financial/legal benefits that married couples get that unmarried couples cannot have. A few years before same-sex marriage laws were passed in Canada, same-sex couples were ruled to be able to have the same rights as other couples. Marriage then becomes largely personal, ceremonial and about expressing a legal "commitment" to a relationship.

I see the single-minded focus on the marriage issue that's happening in the US right now as one that does not benefit some of the most marginalised folks within the queer and trans communities in the same way that focusing on raising awareness and legal protection from discrimination and harassment would. If you look at why many say the marriage rights struggle in the US is important, and then look at the queer/trans community in Canada, I think it becomes clear how same-sex marriage really isn't just a gateway into working on more queer/trans rights.

Same-sex marriage has been legal for years here, and all it's done is produce a false idea in the heads of many L/G folks and straight folks that lgbt rights struggles are over because people can marry. Most of those folks don't much care about homophobia still occurring in many communities and environments in the city, about racism, transphobia, sex worker rights, the rights of those who are differently abled and how they experience homophobia or transphobia differently.

It produces this mentality, which is still pretty popular in the gaybourhood, today:

http://www.thegridto.com/city/sexual...-of-a-new-gay/

That's why I think that, yeah, marriage should be equal like all rights should be equal...but it's really not the most important rights issue facing a heck of a large chunk of the lgbt community, imo.

Edit: that and I still think it privileges a certain idea of "family" and "relationship," that is based on a whole bunch of "isms." Even if poly marriages were to be legalised, we still need to deal with the fact of how it is abused by straight religious people, who just want more ways to abuse women within the "sanctity" of marriage. Beyond legal commitment, in a world where married couples are not privileged over unmarried couples, the reasons for marriage become fewer and fewer, imo. Plus it is also about what IslandScout was saying, which basically creates social pressure to marry as though it is the only logical end to a relationship.

Last edited by EnderD_503; 03-25-2012 at 09:48 AM. Reason: Sorry, lots of editing lol
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Old 07-15-2012, 11:42 AM   #10
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Labels can definitely be useful, but......... we have to remember that they are only general descriptions and not fully accurate.

As far as marriage goes, that produces legal and financial advantages that we are being denied, though straight people are not. This, to my mind, is wrong.

There are other things that we need, as a culture, though, that have been denied to us, this is absolutely certain. We shouldn't be subject to being fired or harrassed, simply because of our orientation or gender status. Nor should we have to put up with discrimination anywhere, because of this. Unfortunately, we still get this in our lives, and it is totally wrong. This needs to be changed.
Well said. I use them (stone femme, lesbian) as jumping off points. How much detail I go into depends on the person/people I'm talking to.
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Old 07-21-2012, 06:26 AM   #11
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I used to identify as femme, till I came here.

Now I identify as a submissive femme, with a disqualifier, lol. I am only submissive to one person. ONLY.

I've discovered, through no conscious decision of my own, that I am also heteronormative and while that word being flung in my face at first confused me (didn't know what the hell it was) then angered me (because it was thrown in my face) I began to embrace it.

I suppose, if semantics were what was truly the argument about labels, I should be identifying myself as a lesbian submissive heternormative wife... that way people could identify me as

A)lesbian
B)submissive (wife) (wife being the disqualifier)
C) heternomative

Then again, and having posted all that I did, very tongue in cheek, I think the only label I am truly comfortable with, is Malissa Jane, the name my Mother gave to me. Everything after that truly is semantics and while I do understand the need for labels, I also think that we're missing the oppurtunity to truly get to know someone for themselves, and not the "label" that's only printed on their forehead on online forums.
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Old 09-16-2012, 11:19 PM   #12
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I call myself a soft butch, teddybear dominant.
I added on the TeddyBear part because of my short fat size, And alot of my behaviour and ways of thinking always seem to mimic the definitions and characteristics of the gay male Bear. Along with the fact that most femmes just kept calling me a sweet, cuddly teddybear, Hearing that made me feel like a child, So, I embraced it instead, And it just stuck.
Growing up in a big city, I only stayed around butches who were more manly looking and acting, And to them, I was always slightly less butch than them, But with an extremely dominant and stubborn nature. So, still butch anyway.
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Old 03-25-2012, 11:09 AM   #13
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Yeah, I really think the next real struggle for the queer community is going to be (and probably already is) really getting out there and talking about why gaining marriage equality may not have actually meant that much for queer rights. Obviously, every person should have the same rights as others so that if a straight cis couple are legally able to marry, then same-sex couples and trans people should also be able to marry legally. At the same time, there need to be more discussions on why promoting or implying that monogamous, traditional marriages/relationships with the intent to marry is somehow more "natural," "acceptable," and "meaningful" than other relationships are harmful ideas to continue to promote. We're just supporting the same social framework that allowed queer folks to be seen as "unnatural" and hated to begin with.

And I agree, a lot of spaces do really make it hard for people to talk about. I remember a few months ago, myself and a few others trying to explain to a "queer ally" why we objected to the normalisation of same-sex marriage. Basically, he thought we were homophobic and oppressive, and that we were trying to say that people shouldn't have equal rights (which isn't what we were saying at all). It's unfortunate that that reaction happens a lot.
I have been saying for years that marriage equality is the last thing that should be on the 'gay agenda'. You can just imagine how well liked I am in many (if not most) of the non-marginalized segments of the G & L communities. I see the marriage agenda as just more assimilation and tolerance. I'm more about liberation and acceptance. Many years ago Urvashi Vaid wrote a great book Virtual Equality: The Mainstreaming of Gay and Lesbian Liberation . It's a must read.

....end of my derail......
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Old 03-25-2012, 11:18 AM   #14
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The whole label thing trips me out. Not only with gender but sexuality- top, bottom, etc. I consider myself queer and within the very broad spectrum. I'm at the point in my life that when someone ask me what I am I reply "What day of the week is it?" lol

I'm flexible when it comes to life. Chances are I probably would not date or marry a man, based on my history but I have learned to never say never. Chances are I'm best suited for one who is submissive, since i am naturally dominant, however there could be that one person who has awesome chemistry with me and we are both dominant. Who knows? I've lived long enough and done enough crazy shit in my life to know that I'm down with "whatever" based on who I'm doing it with,
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