Why lipstick lesbians have to keep coming out of the closet

[mariamma]

Thanks for sharing. People do think I'm straight. I like to dance and often attract the attention of men only. There are no gay clubs in Eugene anymore so the lgbt community clubs at queer-friendly establishments. Men are stunned when I don't give out my number because I'm lesbian. Almost all do not know what being femme means. Maybe we can get a femme-visibility movement going?

[BullDog]

Thanks for sharing the article Quintease and for all the great responses in this thread. It really bugs me when people talk about how butches/FTMS/trans guys have it so much harder or that femmes have it easy. Femmes have their own issues to face and some that I never encounter.

It is sad but true that even among lesbians that are not butch or femme that masculine seems to be valued over feminine. Femmes are just as lesbian/queer/gay as any androgynous or masculine-looking female. Yes Starry, I agree, you are Superheroes.

[gaea]

I haven't had to "come out" in a awhile

recently we hired a new person and on her second day she and i had a conversation went like this

Her: Are you married?
Me : No its not allowed
Her: puzzled expression on her face..
Me: trying not to laugh, "I dont date men"
Her: backing out of the office quickly

me, im still trying not to laugh about this...

one of my coworkers is gay and he is obvious where as i guess im not...the constant "are you married" question is a big ole pain in the ass...

perhaps when it is allowed...perhaps someday i will be able to say "yes" not only to marriage however to the are you married question.

I like the femme that i am

[SugarFemme]

Unless I am on the arm of a butch, I come "Out" every single time I walk out the door of my home. And even then it is no guarantee. My ex-partner did not like PDA, so we never held hands in public. Never failed when we were together, we got the question, "Are you two sisters"?? Hmmmmm...lemme see, I'll let you decide.....I am 5'1" light brown eyes, dark hair and Jewish. She is was 5'9" blond hair and blue eyes, Pennsylvania Dutch Mennonite. Really??Sisters??

[LipstickLola]

*Ahem* Lipsticklola here
I can totally relate to the article. In the hetero world, I'm just another middle aged woman, in the community? I'm just another middle aged woman, LOL, unless I'm with my very butch Xg/f. Having come out later in life, but with a fairly good idea of "who" I was, it's still disconcerting to be somewhat discriminated against amongst other lesbians because I've been previously married to a man. So while we all promote diversity, inclusion, and want to wrap our arms around women like ourselves, (regardless of what label we wear) there is still the stigma of being different, even among gay women. Lipstick lesbians may continually have to come out of the closet, and then again there are times it almost feels easier to stay there.

[Ginger]

I've said already somewhere on the site, being femme was always a contextual ID for me—it was my way of "coming out" in my attraction to butch women.

Eventually, though, I ended up with a woman who looks and acts butch in many ways, but doesn't ascribe to that ID, and it felt like one hand clapping—me holding on to the femme thing, when she is pretty dismissive of butch-femme culture.

So, one day I woke up and it was gone. I felt like my femme ID had become obsolete.

I look very straight—make-up, big earrings, long, layered hair, and I wear dresses and skirts every day, with boots. Most people assume I'm straight.

But one day recently I realized I make the butch conductor on the LIRR very nervous. I'm certain she recognizes me as femme, and sort of activates it in me, though I hadn't been in touch with the ID for a long time.

I guess that sounds very dependent on others, that whole "activate" thing—like I'm some kind of doll waiting to be taken down from the shelf. Yuk! That isn't what I mean.

I have to think about this. The words aren't really right.

[Quintease]

Originally Posted by IslandScout

I've said already somewhere on the site, being femme was always a contextual ID for me—it was my way of "coming out" in my attraction to butch women.

Eventually, though, I ended up with a woman who looks and acts butch in many ways, but doesn't ascribe to that ID, and it felt like one hand clapping—me holding on to the femme thing, when she is pretty dismissive of butch-femme culture.

So, one day I woke up and it was gone. I felt like my femme ID had become obsolete.

I kinda had that, but in reverse. I felt very strongly about my femme ID once. It was my ID and had nothing to do with anyone I dated, Femme was who I was. Only then I dated a woman who made me feel like being femme was a cage. There was something about her that made my femininity ugly and dirty and an obligation. It was only after our relationship ended that I realised her ex before me had the same experience and also rejected the femme ID while with her.
It was probably a good thing as then I met my husband and a femme identity would have been obsolete anyhow.

Perhaps if it can be activated it can also be deactivated.

[SweetJane]

Originally Posted by LipstickLola

*Ahem* Lipsticklola here
I can totally relate to the article. In the hetero world, I'm just another middle aged woman, in the community? I'm just another middle aged woman, LOL, unless I'm with my very butch Xg/f. Having come out later in life, but with a fairly good idea of "who" I was, it's still disconcerting to be somewhat discriminated against amongst other lesbians because I've been previously married to a man. So while we all promote diversity, inclusion, and want to wrap our arms around women like ourselves, (regardless of what label we wear) there is still the stigma of being different, even among gay women. Lipstick lesbians may continually have to come out of the closet, and then again there are times it almost feels easier to stay there.

Boy can I ever relate to your words, Lipsticklola! I am in an area that is gay-friendly for the most part, but I still appear to be straight in most situations because I read femme as an older woman. When I'm at gay events, most of the time I feel like an outsider as if I don't quite belong. It isn't that the lesbians (or the gay men for that matter) that I know value masculinity so much as they value androgyny, looking like everyone else, being like everyone else. Many women in this community read butchish but don't quite have the male energy. And others may sort of look femme but they aren't either.

Recently I was told by a butch-type lesbian to stop using labels for identity and to broaden who I wanted to be with. Well, honey, I'm a stone femme. I don't want to be anything else and I only want to be with someone who gets who I am. My preference is for my stone complement. I may be a very, very late bloomer but I'd rather be alone than settle for someone who would try to make me into something I'm not.

Lipsticklola, we femmes have to stick together.

[Passionaria]

Again, thank you Quintease for posting this article and starting this conversation. I love her attitude, the exuberance of youth and exploration, makes me giggle, Not the subject matter, but her way of dealing.

I have led a pretty sheltered gay life, as in I have mostly been in the Butch Femme community. Recently I have been branching out and going to different events just to explore out of my comfort zone. I am finding that I am more accepted by my straight community of friends as a high femme lesbian than the andro-lesbian world. I have men friends who I know are interested in me, they have said so. I tell them about my (at the time girlfriend) and they are sad but rise to the occasion with respect and care. Same with my straight women friends (well they don't hit on me). I am out at work, and totally accepted. Now this is Austin.

This has not been true in my ventures into the androgynous lesbian world. One evening I went to a lesbian "book club" where a member was doing a reading from a new book she had written and published. I could not believe the reaction I got. I felt like an Amazonian Parrot who had landed in a corn field of crows. And those crows sure had ruffled feathers. I made them very uncomfortable. I looked around to see who was who and who was with who, trying to get a feel for the situation. It was hard to tell because all of them had on the same uniform. Mens shorts, polo T's or regular T's and Birkenstocks or plain manish sandals with boyish hair cuts. There was a rigid conformance to their dress and behavior. I'm like OK (don't hate me) I maybe a drag queen parrot, but you all feel like a bowl of oatmeal with nothing in it. No sumptuousness, no creamy rich butter, no honey dripping over cinnamon, just plain oatmeal. I can accept that they like plain oatmeal, but I find it boring. So we have differences, that's cool. I figure I'll just ask intelligent questions and meet them on an intellectual level. Well I made the speaker so nervous she had to be rude to me to feel in control. Her partner had to say in front of everyone, be nice she may want to buy your book. REALLY?

From this and other experiences I am starting believe that what they are yelling in their conformity is I'm not a man or a woman, I'm a Lesbian. And there appears to be a strict and yes narrow adherence to a set of standards that must be followed to be accepted in this community. Running to much male energy or too much female energy means your not one of the pack. Now these are generalizations, I know, but I'm trying to understand what I am seeing and feeling in reference to being a femme. Now I'm going somewhere with this so don't judge me. I could tell that I turned this author on, because she was all twitchy, she had a hard on and I was making her have to deal with her nasty masculinity in front of people who would judge her for it, and her partner who looked just like her, while she was trying to sell us on her book. So she was rude to me to deny the whole situation.

Case in point 2:
I was dating a lesbian boi who likes feminine women. But all the women she had dated were "lesbians" not high femmes. As a femme I am not going to pretend I don't like that nasty man thing your strapping on. I'm going to "put it down", cause I like that kind of sex. She felt her male energy full on for the first time in her life. She was talking about getting a sex change. And the things she was feeling scared her. She was online with a bunch of andro-lesbians and put herself out there like the freaky boi she is, and talking about likening to blindfold people and tie them up, and let me tell you, that went over like a ton of bricks. Next thing I know she's denying any love of her male energy, saying passionate wild sex is cold, and eating plain oatmeal with the rest of her friends, and saying Amen. But she fits in perfectly now. WOW, that's some social pressure!????

From these and a few other experiences the only thing that I can figure out as to why Femmes are treated the way we are in the andro community is this: Feminine energy is a powerful thing, especially when expressed with out inhibition. It appears that there is a fear or distaste of Butch energy because it represents something many of them dislike....men. And the all out feminine energy represents a sell out to men, or a lushness that arouses the male energy. All of which appears to be taboo. Have I lost my mind, or does any of this make sense?? I'm really trying to understand my experiences.....

Pashi (the Drag Queen Parrot)

[SweetJane]

Passionaria, you're bringing the Word. This is exactly what I've experienced here. I long for my own kind, to be validated by them.

[Morgan]

Originally Posted by Passionaria

Again, thank you Quintease for posting this article and starting this conversation. I love her attitude, the exuberance of youth and exploration, makes me giggle, Not the subject matter, but her way of dealing.

I have led a pretty sheltered gay life, as in I have mostly been in the Butch Femme community. Recently I have been branching out and going to different events just to explore out of my comfort zone. I am finding that I am more accepted by my straight community of friends as a high femme lesbian than the andro-lesbian world. I have men friends who I know are interested in me, they have said so. I tell them about my (at the time girlfriend) and they are sad but rise to the occasion with respect and care. Same with my straight women friends (well they don't hit on me). I am out at work, and totally accepted. Now this is Austin.

This has not been true in my ventures into the androgynous lesbian world. One evening I went to a lesbian "book club" where a member was doing a reading from a new book she had written and published. I could not believe the reaction I got. I felt like an Amazonian Parrot who had landed in a corn field of crows. And those crows sure had ruffled feathers. I made them very uncomfortable. I looked around to see who was who and who was with who, trying to get a feel for the situation. It was hard to tell because all of them had on the same uniform. Mens shorts, polo T's or regular T's and Birkenstocks or plain manish sandals with boyish hair cuts. There was a rigid conformance to their dress and behavior. I'm like OK (don't hate me) I maybe a drag queen parrot, but you all feel like a bowl of oatmeal with nothing in it. No sumptuousness, no creamy rich butter, no honey dripping over cinnamon, just plain oatmeal. I can accept that they like plain oatmeal, but I find it boring. So we have differences, that's cool. I figure I'll just ask intelligent questions and meet them on an intellectual level. Well I made the speaker so nervous she had to be rude to me to feel in control. Her partner had to say in front of everyone, be nice she may want to buy your book. REALLY?

From this and other experiences I am starting believe that what they are yelling in their conformity is I'm not a man or a woman, I'm a Lesbian. And there appears to be a strict and yes narrow adherence to a set of standards that must be followed to be accepted in this community. Running to much male energy or too much female energy means your not one of the pack. Now these are generalizations, I know, but I'm trying to understand what I am seeing and feeling in reference to being a femme. Now I'm going somewhere with this so don't judge me. I could tell that I turned this author on, because she was all twitchy, she had a hard on and I was making her have to deal with her nasty masculinity in front of people who would judge her for it, and her partner who looked just like her, while she was trying to sell us on her book. So she was rude to me to deny the whole situation.

Case in point 2:
I was dating a lesbian boi who likes feminine women. But all the women she had dated were "lesbians" not high femmes. As a femme I am not going to pretend I don't like that nasty man thing your strapping on. I'm going to "put it down", cause I like that kind of sex. She felt her male energy full on for the first time in her life. She was talking about getting a sex change. And the things she was feeling scared her. She was online with a bunch of andro-lesbians and put herself out there like the freaky boi she is, and talking about likening to blindfold people and tie them up, and let me tell you, that went over like a ton of bricks. Next thing I know she's denying any love of her male energy, saying passionate wild sex is cold, and eating plain oatmeal with the rest of her friends, and saying Amen. But she fits in perfectly now. WOW, that's some social pressure!????

From these and a few other experiences the only thing that I can figure out as to why Femmes are treated the way we are in the andro community is this: Feminine energy is a powerful thing, especially when expressed with out inhibition. It appears that there is a fear or distaste of Butch energy because it represents something many of them dislike....men. And the all out feminine energy represents a sell out to men, or a lushness that arouses the male energy. All of which appears to be taboo. Have I lost my mind, or does any of this make sense?? I'm really trying to understand my experiences.....

Pashi (the Drag Queen Parrot)

I understand where you are coming from...I am not ashamed to admit it took many years for me to come out as a butch. The women I dated and the women who were my friends were adrogynous, I had no clue about femme women. Oh how ignorant I was to the Butch/Femme community...I finally met a femme woman who brought me out and showed me another facet of my true identity. When I finally stepped out I realized how much I was missing, how comfortable I felt in the B/F lifestyle, I prepared myself for what I knew would be the backlash of identifying as a proud butch.
I am honored to wear the Butch badge, just as I hope my Femme sisters are proud to wear their badge. I feel that the lesbian community needs to be educated, I am willing to step forward and do my part. I believe we teach others how to treat us, yes there are going to be some who no matter what will not appreciate or like us, but if I can teach just a few, maybe they will be able to educate others.
I am only one, speaking about my own feelings, I would never claim to speak for anyone else.....

[apretty]

Yes, a lot.

Originally Posted by BullDog

Thanks for sharing the article Quintease and for all the great responses in this thread. It really bugs me when people talk about how butches/FTMS/trans guys have it so much harder or that femmes have it easy. Femmes have their own issues to face and some that I never encounter.

It is sad but true that even among lesbians that are not butch or femme that masculine seems to be valued over feminine. Femmes are just as lesbian/queer/gay as any androgynous or masculine-looking female. Yes Starry, I agree, you are Superheroes.