What makes a Butch "Butch"

[Just_G]

Originally Posted by Quintease

I dated an idiot once who yelled at me that she was too butch to wear a bikini top. I could understand if we lived in a society where women risked being bashed for wearing bikini tops, but we were going to a beach with a bunch of gays, none of whom really cared about ID. She may have thought she was being big and butch, but how comfortable can you be about your ID if you have to rely on rigid clothing rules to get your message across?

Its because people might look and say upon first : She isnt butch...when in fact, she is, but cant make that known to people without having a certain look that she might feel conveys her butchness.

If someone wants to wear a csrtain type of clothing to convey this, then leave them be and let them do what makes them one with how they ID.
Its not about what they where, it is about how what they wear makes them feel. If that makes her an idiot, then I am one proud idiot in all my butchness.
Just my .02

[luv2luvgirls]

I dont know what made me a butch... other than I was just born this way. If my mom put some frilly thing or dress on me as soon as I hit the door to go outside it came off.. I would run the hood neekid rather than wear frilly stuff, thats just how I was. I dont think you can lump us butches in a neat box like that,we have our own tastes and likes about everything *shrugs* even how we like to dress,or what type we are attracted to.

[Corkey]

I have nails most women would kill someone for, hard strong and chip free. Sometimes I let them grow to phenomenal lengths, sometimes I cut them down to nothing. They grow long in 1 week, keeping up is a chore and unless I'm writing a thesis they are pretty much not in the way. It has nothing to do with who I am.

[Parker]

Originally Posted by Corkey

I have nails most women would kill someone for, hard strong and chip free. Sometimes I let them grow to phenomenal lengths, sometimes I cut them down to nothing. They grow long in 1 week, keeping up is a chore and unless I'm writing a thesis they are pretty much not in the way. It has nothing to do with who I am.

Yeah - and I dont keep mine short because I'm butch - they just get in the way and make me crazy so I cut them down to nothing every few days.

[Quintease]

I have never had nails until now. So for most of my lesbian life I have not had nails or nail polish despite being femme. In fact a lesbian twigged me in a straight setting once, purely on the basis of my hands.

I'm femme and I walk like a man apparently. Somehow I can manage this even in heels, which I don't wear any more so I guess I walk like a man all the time now.

My hubby used to have long hair in his previous life, it was the only 'feminine' thing about him. Obviously now it's shortshort, but he still misses his hair sometimes.

Hair, nails, walk, none of it really has a 'gender'. Anyone can 'drink like a man' or 'cry like a girl'. Yet even though our gender attributes are all mixed up, we all still know if we're male or female/ masculine or feminine/ gay or straight. It's strange that we just know, it's strange that we need to have these distinctions. It's an interesting question. What is a butch if it has nothing to with hair, clothing or sex? What is it that defines her and contrasts her to a femme? I wish I knew the answer to that.

[Dude]

what makes a decent human being
that's the kind of thread that would feel new to me.
there may suddenly be a "need" to start a femme version of this thread
sigh (maybe there already is one?)

we all have our own types we are attracted to
and hopefully they evolve as we do (hopefully)
period.
the end.

I think threads like this set up more of a competition (undercurrent) amongst each other.
At the end of the day Who cares how you present ,just be ok with yourself ( an inside job )
Insecurities ,jealousy and in fighting. I've seen it, felt it and know it's true.
I could give a fuck who you (the general you) are dating ,because guess what, I don't want her.
That's not how I roll or the kind of human being I am.

I can count the butch friends I have on one hand.(after many years online
and in real life)
They are all secure in themselves and know I am not a threat to their relationships or "butch-hood" <eyeroll>
I could give a fuck what they wear swimming and would not diss them.
There is no weird (frat boy) butch posturing... I hate that more than anything. <puke>
Or leg lifting , a trait I've seen in all genders <ew>

I have (in my many years) been attracted to femme's with short nails and short hair <gasp>
brains, compassion, integrity and humor are hot.
("be about something")
It takes more than getting your nails done and hairs did to keep me interested. call me crazy
I have many a gay man crush based of their honesty first and their pretty eyes or a nice ass second.
Real allies in this life? I dig them. period.
on a bit of a roll today
pardon me

[~ocean]

"applauds" you Dude, very well said

[SweetJane]

Being butch or femme is not a matter of outward accoutrements (dress, hair, nails). And sometimes it isn't even a matter of self-identity. It is truly a matter of energy.

Many butches are indeed female-bodied; others find themselves along a range of trans-expression (whether they are still female-bodied or not). All of them generate male energy, whether in a swagger, a smirk, a look, a presence. It is an intrinsic part of their very core.

Put one of them in a dress or red nails. They're still butch.

For me, though, to see their delicious maleness transposed over a fleeting whisper of femaleness that sometimes passes across their faces is...... well....swoonable. It is a soft expression of vulnerability within a strong persona.

Damn...

[Merlin]

Being butch is every fibre of my make up, it's who I am. Put me in a dress and I am a butch in a dress. Dress me in a starched white shirt,cuff links,tie, waistcoat,jacket and trousers and I feel like its a second skin, a glove, moulding my body and exuding my confidence.

I love being butch - its who I am.

[Parker]

Originally Posted by SweetJane

Being butch or femme is not a matter of outward accoutrements (dress, hair, nails). And sometimes it isn't even a matter of self-identity. It is truly a matter of energy.

Many butches are indeed female-bodied; others find themselves along a range of trans-expression (whether they are still female-bodied or not). All of them generate male energy, whether in a swagger, a smirk, a look, a presence. It is an intrinsic part of their very core.

Put one of them in a dress or red nails. They're still butch.

For me, though, to see their delicious maleness transposed over a fleeting whisper of femaleness that sometimes passes across their faces is...... well....swoonable. It is a soft expression of vulnerability within a strong persona.

Damn...

Not do get into semantics, but I have to disagree with your use of the terms male and maleness when describing all butches.

I have masculine energy and exude masculinity, but I am not a man or male and do not exude anything to do with men, males, or maleness.

Again, it may be semantics to some, but to me, there is a huge difference between masculine and male - I am the former but I will never be the latter.

[girl_dee]

Originally Posted by Parker

Not do get into semantics, but I have to disagree with your use of the terms male and maleness when describing all butches.

I have masculine energy and exude masculinity, but I am not a man or male and do not exude anything to do with men, males, or maleness.

Again, it may be semantics to some, but to me, there is a huge difference between masculine and male - I am the former but I will never be the latter.

Agree completely, to assume butch = male energy is grossly incorrect!

Masculinity is an energy all on it's own, and it's not owned by the male population.

Not all butches are or want to be male identified or invoke maleness, they are quite happy being a female identified butch.

[macele]

my first recalls of being emotionally attracted to women were teachers in 3rd and 5th grades. one teacher was sweet. the other was strict. it was about the way they treated me with a feminine way of affection and caring. these were some the first feelings that i had, .. knowing but unknowing to an extent, ... that i am a lesbian.

i've never changed a tire or changed the oil. i like sundresses. i'm quiet, ... i don't make a scene. what i do in life is preference. what we like to do or what we like to wear/appearance or how we act, ... varies. we are individuals. our personalities are attracted to what feels natural, at ease. or simply what we think makes us look good. whatever gets the groove on. choice and natural meet up to form indiviualism.

it's true, energy differentiates butch and femme. i am a lesbian butch. i was born with some masculine traits. not entirely. for example, i am an emotional person. the tears roll so easy. that's not thought of as masculine. a butch is a female with some maleness about her. just a woman with a bit of butchiness. and with that said, i'm under the impression that some femmes like it. that's a good deal from where i am.

[firegal]

Originally Posted by Dude

what makes a decent human being
that's the kind of thread that would feel new to me.
there may suddenly be a "need" to start a femme version of this thread
sigh (maybe there already is one?)

we all have our own types we are attracted to
and hopefully they evolve as we do (hopefully)
period.
the end.

I think threads like this set up more of a competition (undercurrent) amongst each other.
At the end of the day Who cares how you present ,just be ok with yourself ( an inside job )
Insecurities ,jealousy and in fighting. I've seen it, felt it and know it's true.
I could give a fuck who you (the general you) are dating ,because guess what, I don't want her.
That's not how I roll or the kind of human being I am.

I can count the butch friends I have on one hand.(after many years online
and in real life)
They are all secure in themselves and know I am not a threat to their relationships or "butch-hood" <eyeroll>
I could give a fuck what they wear swimming and would not diss them.
There is no weird (frat boy) butch posturing... I hate that more than anything. <puke>
Or leg lifting , a trait I've seen in all genders <ew>

I have (in my many years) been attracted to femme's with short nails and short hair <gasp>
brains, compassion, integrity and humor are hot.
("be about something")
It takes more than getting your nails done and hairs did to keep me interested. call me crazy
I have many a gay man crush based of their honesty first and their pretty eyes or a nice ass second.
Real allies in this life? I dig them. period.
on a bit of a roll today
pardon me

I hear you and agree on many of your statements. Ive had to remind myself that alot of these threads even amongst the controversy or undertones have folks reading/looking at them some of whom are brand spanking new to this site.Some of them growing,learning,maturing,absorbing.Who maybe need to hear both sides and/or need to hear someone else thoughts challenged.

I get reminded regularly that "its not always about you' which helps me realize somebody else may benefit from this convo.

[Dude]

Originally Posted by firegal

I hear you and agree on many of your statements. Ive had to remind myself that alot of these threads even amongst the controversy or undertones have folks reading/looking at them some of whom are brand spanking new to this site.Some of them growing,learning,maturing,absorbing.Who maybe need to hear both sides and/or need to hear someone else thoughts challenged.

I get reminded regularly that "its not always about you' which helps me realize somebody else may benefit from this convo.

I guess I should have been more clear with my post as I did not
mean any offense to the Original Post.
I do get there are people here of all ages and growing processes.
My post was not meant to minimize anyone but just an observation
I've had over the years.
I could almost bet in a day or so a "gold star butch" will appear who
is the greatest butch of all ( in their own mind) and I think that
kind of posturing is gross.
I like to think someone might get some comfort from what old goats have
to say as well.
I'm not trying to shut down the conversation at all, in fact.
I like to think there is room for everyone here and I have earned my seat here
as well, thanks.

[firegal]

Originally Posted by Dude

I guess I should have been more clear with my post as I did not
mean any offense to the Original Post.
I do get there are people here of all ages and growing processes.
My post was not meant to minimize anyone but just an observation
I've had over the years.
I could almost bet in a day or so a "gold star butch" will appear who
is the greatest butch of all ( in their own mind) and I think that
kind of posturing is gross.
I like to think someone might get some comfort from what old goats have
to say as well.
I'm not trying to shut down the conversation at all, in fact.
I like to think there is room for everyone here and I have earned my seat here
as well, thanks.

I'm thinking were r on same page. as i stated in my agreement with your statements...

My comments werent in opposition as you also state yours werent either.

just sharing information, points of view and thoughts which is what i love about all these threads.

[Cin]

Originally Posted by Dude

I think threads like this set up more of a competition (undercurrent) amongst each other.

Originally Posted by Dude

I could almost bet in a day or so a "gold star butch" will appear who
is the greatest butch of all ( in their own mind) and I think that
kind of posturing is gross.

I think this is true, sometimes it does set up an undercurrent of competitiveness and even a hierarchy of butchness where the more you identify with male, the more “he” you are, the higher you ascend on the scale of butch. Often it feels that the masculinity a butch presents is being judged on its likeness or resemblance to what is traditionally considered male. I think that is the problem with trying to describe the essence of what is butch and what makes a butch a butch. It is not concrete or even clearly definable. It may have to do with energy resembling what is thought of as masculine but it is not male. Some butches may be male and/or consider themselves a man and some may be female and/or consider themselves a woman, but that is a personal trait and not the definition or the essence of a butch.

Unfortunately for me, I often take what people say innocently, non judgmentally, to describe themselves and what being butch is for them and use it to underscore for myself what is less than about my butchness. Thankfully, not so much anymore, but old habits die hard. I think this is connected to my lack of certain abilities and interests shared by most of my butch friends over the years.

I am not mechanically apt. I can’t build anything either. Certainly not from scratch but even if it comes in a box with directions it isn’t likely I will be able to put it together correctly. I don’t think I’ve ever been successful at putting anything together. Mostly my femme partner of the moment has come to my rescue. Even if they think they are not good at putting stuff together they quickly discover they are better at it than I am. It’s in the vision. I usually end up putting it together upside down or backwards. My first long term relationship was with a woman who was a whiz at stuff like that. I remember a butch friend of ours trying to teach me how to fix my car. I told her to show my partner cause she was interested and capable. I don’t think this made me any less butch or her any less femme. When we bought a crib for our son she put it together without even looking at the directions. I baked some cookies. I’m good at cooking stuff.

But that’s not really what being a butch is about. It’s not adhering to some societal gender rules about what is masculine and what is feminine. It’s not about living up to society’s definition of masculinity nor is it about living down society’s definition of femininity. Just like being femme isn’t about femininity per se or the lack of masculinity. It can include that aspect in one’s personality but that is not the essence of it. I guess it’s easier to say what it isn’t than what it is. My wife told me when we first met that my butchness entered the room before I did. It’s not about what I do or don’t do, it’s about who I am.

[BullDog]

Butch is absolutely not male. If it was we wouldn't need to even have the gender identity of butch. We could all just call ourselves men or male. The whole point of gender identities such as butch and femme is that we claim our own identities and do not conform to gender stereotypes or traditional expectations. We have forged our own path. So why would we fall back on heteronormative stereotypes and equate butch with male?

Male id'd butches are not "more butch" than those of us who are not. Also the vast majority of butches I have ever known or met in real life identify with being a female and woman and are very proud of it. Things get quite skewed online. I hate the hierarchy and when butch is equated to male and when those of us who are not are made to feel less than or not true butch. It is infuriating and actually makes no sense. It does not reflect reality and how most butches live out in the real world at all. And yes it still does happen all the time where people do this. I can think of several recent threads right on this forum where it has been quite blatant.

Masculinity is not owned by men or male. Female masculinity and butch are very powerful in their own right. I do think it has mostly to do with energy and how one walks through the world- which is hard to describe or pin down.

[Novelafemme]

[QUOTE=Miss Tick;577700]I think this is true, sometimes it does set up an undercurrent of competitiveness and even a hierarchy of butchness where the more you identify with male, the more “he” you are, the higher you ascend on the scale of butch. Often it feels that the masculinity a butch presents is being judged on its likeness or resemblance to what is traditionally considered male. I think that is the problem with trying to describe the essence of what is butch and what makes a butch a butch. It is not concrete or even clearly definable. It may have to do with energy resembling what is thought of as masculine but it is not male. Some butches may be male and/or consider themselves a man and some may be female and/or consider themselves a woman, but that is a personal trait and not the definition or the essence of a butch.

Unfortunately for me, I often take what people say innocently, non judgmentally, to describe themselves and what being butch is for them and use it to underscore for myself what is less than about my butchness. Thankfully, not so much anymore, but old habits die hard. I think this is connected to my lack of certain abilities and interests shared by most of my butch friends over the years.

I am not mechanically apt. I can’t build anything either. Certainly not from scratch but even if it comes in a box with directions it isn’t likely I will be able to put it together correctly. I don’t think I’ve ever been successful at putting anything together. Mostly my femme partner of the moment has come to my rescue. Even if they think they are not good at putting stuff together they quickly discover they are better at it than I am. It’s in the vision. I usually end up putting it together upside down or backwards. My first long term relationship was with a woman who was a whiz at stuff like that. I remember a butch friend of ours trying to teach me how to fix my car. I told her to show my partner cause she was interested and capable. I don’t think this made me any less butch or her any less femme. When we bought a crib for our son she put it together without even looking at the directions. I baked some cookies. I’m good at cooking stuff.

But that’s not really what being a butch is about. It’s not adhering to some societal gender rules about what is masculine and what is feminine. It’s not about living up to society’s definition of masculinity nor is it about living down society’s definition of femininity. Just like being femme isn’t about femininity per se or the lack of masculinity. It can include that aspect in one’s personality but that is not the essence of it. I guess it’s easier to say what it isn’t than what it is. My wife told me when we first met that my butchness entered the room before I did. It’s not about what I do or don’t do, it’s about who I am.[/QUOTE]

I love this! Thank you Miss Tick

[Dude]

For me, reading ten pages of posts about how "IT" is oozing
from "our" every pore really doesn't feel all that supportive.
Do femme's ooze out of every pore and if they do are they also helpless?
<cringe> I really hate the stereotyping. ALL of it.
Knight in shining armor bs saving the damsel in distress fantasy?
really?
Can we stop with the harlequin stuff ,one day? please?! snort!


Maybe I'm wrong but femme's seem to have an easier time bonding
with one another. In a way that makes me envious, when it is indeed
a genuine thing

For years, it used to be funny for people to talk about what 2 x 4 idiots
we are.I laughed myself until I "got" that it was not really funny.
Although sometimes quite dense , I am not stupid or simple.
That appears to not be so common any more and I appreciate it.
I'm sure there were wars over "that" that I may have missed.
Maybe we grew up as a community some, I hope so.

False bravado does not impress me. Trying very hard not to toot my own horn
in here so , I'll just say I can sew and have been( more times than not) the most sensitive person, when in a relationship If that makes me less than, in your "ideal vision" of what butch means ,you wouldn't really appreciate me anyway. I also hate watching sports but I will play them
( maybe)

We are all very different and that's fine
not stone,stone,bottom's,top's,female identified,male identified
31 flavors and then some
nobody gets the top slot and I am not taking a back seat for anyone

I've seen lumberjack guys sporting kilts ( just because they want to) and I admire the hell out of grown men who cry when it hits them.

[macele]

this thread has made me rethink the word butch. and i've decided that i will not ever use the word masculine or any word that is considered a synonym/related to the word masculine by most dictionaries, ... when talking about a butch. a traditional word i am throwing out the window, so to speak.