Opinions

[Quintease]

I hate these people as guess what, WE DON'T LIVE IN THAT WORLD THAT YOU WANT!

I really think gay people stamping their feet and insisting that gays don't need marriage are hurting the cause, sorry but I do. It's very carriage-before-the-horse.

Yes it would be ideal to live in that world where gender and wedded bliss don't matter, but until we get there can we focus on something that the mainstream world/ Governments/ Religions/ Allies will understand? Can we just have a chance to be equal to everyone else first, before we start trying to change the society we live in. Surely equality is more important than fantasy right now?
People are dying out there, families are being split up , lovers are losing the right to see their loved ones, but these tossers have so much privilege that they can't be bothered to care about any of that? Fcuk them.

[aishah]

Originally Posted by Quintease

I hate these people as guess what, WE DON'T LIVE IN THAT WORLD THAT YOU WANT!

I really think gay people stamping their feet and insisting that gays don't need marriage are hurting the cause, sorry but I do. It's very carriage-before-the-horse.

Yes it would be ideal to live in that world where gender and wedded bliss don't matter, but until we get there can we focus on something that the mainstream world/ Governments/ Religions/ Allies will understand? Can we just have a chance to be equal to everyone else first, before we start trying to change the society we live in. Surely equality is more important than fantasy right now?
People are dying out there, families are being split up , lovers are losing the right to see their loved ones, but these tossers have so much privilege that they can't be bothered to care about any of that? Fcuk them.

it's not that i don't think that gay marriage IS an issue, it's just that i don't think it should be the ONLY issue. maybe that makes me a privileged tosser.

i've been treated horribly and screwed over when my parents died, which scares the shit out of me when it comes to anything happening to myself or my partner, and it would make both of our lives a lot easier (with health insurance, for starters) if we could get married. it would make me feel safer in the event that something happens to us, given that neither of us are close to our families.

but at the same time...the people i am closest to in my community are dealing with issues like violence, police brutality, being unable to work or go to the bathroom, and homelessness, and i can't ignore the fact that those things have had a bigger and more immediate impact on our lives than whether we are allowed to marry. yet those issues will never get the kind of support that gay marriage does. i respect that those may not be the biggest or most immediate issues for everyone in the lgbtq community, but they are immediate and life-threatening issues for some of us.

and regardless of how anyone feels about gay marriage, obama's statement is a nice gesture but it doesn't have any concrete meaning.

[aishah]

also...we live in a society that is fundamentally unequal.

i respect that gay marriage will help a lot of people in the immediate future, but it does not mean that all people will have marriage equality, and it won't make our fundamentally unequal society that much less unequal. it will make a lot of people's lives easier in the interim, so yeah, i'd be really happy if it were equally applied throughout the u.s. (i.e. not treated as a "separate but unequal" states' rights issue). but imho it should not be treated as the only issue or the endgame if we are really talking about wanting equality.

i am troubled because i frequently am in a position of educating straight people about lgbtq issues, and many of them are completely unaware of other immediate and life-threatening issues besides gay marriage (and maybe bullying of queer youth). i'm worried about the perception in some circles that if gay marriage is passed, we'll be living in a "post-homophobic" society. and i'm worried about how many people we're leaving behind.

[Quintease]

Originally Posted by aishah

also...we live in a society that is fundamentally unequal.

i respect that gay marriage will help a lot of people in the immediate future, but it does not mean that all people will have marriage equality, and it won't make our fundamentally unequal society that much less unequal. it will make a lot of people's lives easier in the interim, so yeah, i'd be really happy if it were equally applied throughout the u.s. (i.e. not treated as a "separate but unequal" states' rights issue). but imho it should not be treated as the only issue or the endgame if we are really talking about wanting equality.

i am troubled because i frequently am in a position of educating straight people about lgbtq issues, and many of them are completely unaware of other immediate and life-threatening issues besides gay marriage (and maybe bullying of queer youth). i'm worried about the perception in some circles that if gay marriage is passed, we'll be living in a "post-homophobic" society. and i'm worried about how many people we're leaving behind.

I don't see how denying gays equal rights to straights is helping the equality cause?

Surely we want to make being gay as legally safe and as normalised as possible so gays won't be discriminated against simply for being gay (or trans)?

[aishah]

Originally Posted by Quintease

I don't see how denying gays equal rights to straights is helping the equality cause?

Surely we want to make being gay as legally safe and as normalised as possible so gays won't be discriminated against simply for being gay (or trans)?

i don't see how it's helping the equality cause either, lol that's why i said i'd be very happy for gay marriage to be passed. but i'm not under any illusions that that will make everyone equal.

the problem with being "normalized" is that many of us will never be able to conform to the standards of normalization according to mainstream society. some of us might be able to gain a little bit of acceptance and that's really great. but it's conditional and it can be taken away as easily as it can be given.

i'd love to live in a society where people aren't discriminated against for being gay and trans*, but passing gay marriage laws won't make that happen. it will help some lgbtq folks who want to get married, but as long as we live in a society that holds up a certain idea of normalcy and only confers a little bit of acceptance on those who conform to it, we're going to be second class citizens. the history of every minority in this country bears that out.

that doesn't mean we shouldn't seek for policy changes. policy changes can help a lot of people. but people are confusing changing laws with equality, with actually gaining widespread acceptance and ending discrimination, which are not the same thing. no matter how many laws we change, many of us are still going to face discrimination, hatred, abuse, and violence for decades if not longer. because we still live in a society that privileges the "normal" and many of us will never be "normal," no matter how hard we try. and what little bit of protection we ARE able to get can be taken away from us or denied anytime.

[aishah]

and i'm not saying that because of some place of privilege, i'm saying that because i and people i love belong to groups who will still experience discrimination no matter how many laws are passed. and the rhetoric around gay marriage has created the idea of "good queers" who conform with mainstream heteronormative society and "bad queers" who don't, and honestly, policy changes tend to mainly benefit "good queers" and leave the rest of us behind.

that's why personally, while i'll vote and encourage others to vote for laws, i prefer to put my time into other kinds of activism because those laws really aren't doing much to protect me or folks i love right now.

[julieisafemme]

I totally agree with you Aishah. Marriage equality does not include transpeople either. Not every state allows it. Not every state will let you even change your birth certificate. Even if a state will allow it, the marriage can be challenged. Until it is clear that all human beings have the right to marry each other same sex marriage is not going to cure everything. All human beings should have autonomy over their own bodies., the right to marry whom they choose and the right to procreate or adopt in any way they see fit.

[blush]

I have been hearing many folks toss around terms like "normalized" and "mainstream" as though these are dirty words and "real" equality warriors don't want families. I find this especially laughable given that many of these so-called "mainstream" queer folk have endured the same hatred and discrimination. Do we really think Phelps is going to distinguish his hatred between mainstream and non-mainstream queer folk?

[aishah]

Originally Posted by blush

I have been hearing many folks toss around terms like "normalized" and "mainstream" as though these are dirty words and "real" equality warriors don't want families. I find this especially laughable given that many of these so-called "mainstream" queer folk have endured the same hatred and discrimination. Do we really think Phelps is going to distinguish his hatred between mainstream and non-mainstream queer folk?

phelps isn't, but a lot of other people do.

we live in a society where we have a certain conception of what normal looks like (usually male, white, middle/upper-class, able-bodied, cisgender, monogamous, for starters). everyone else tends to be judged by how well they conform to that idea of normalcy. we police people's identities based on that conception of normalcy. some people who don't fit into those categories have some amount of acceptance, but that acceptance is always conditional and can be easily taken away.

so, for example, being a woman - if you are a woman who's monogamous, white, and middle class, and you have the right job and you dress well and you stay inside certain lines, you have a certain amount of safety because you are trying to conform to the best of your abilities. if you are poor or a woman of color or a sex worker or fat or otherwise not a "good" woman, you are policed. and sometimes even if you try as hard as you can to be a "good" woman according to the standards of our society, that one time you get raped they'll try to find ANY indication that you weren't "good" and you'll get smacked upside the head so fast.

i don't think there's anything wrong with being a monogamous, white, middle-class lesbian couple who just wants to get married and live in suburbia. i do think that that vision of what "queerness" is is what gets privileged. i do think there is a problem with saying "all queer people want to be just like you normal straight people! we're all mainstream!" because those of us who don't fit heteronormative society's ideas of what mainstream looks like then end up getting labeled as "bad queers." we're setting the movement back. recently a friend of mine who's a bisexual middle class 20-something white cisman with a nice professional job, living in suburbia, said, "god, those crazy queers at pride parades and you poly people are making us look bad." if i had a nickel for every time someone told me that...i'd be a wealthy woman.

i don't have anything wrong with mainstream people. i think mainstream people deserve rights as much as the rest of us. i'm not saying every middle class lesbian who just wants to get married and live in suburbia needs to go live on the streets and be homeless. the problem is mainstream people tend to get rights and the rest of us tend to get left behind, in my experience (at least with the mainstream feminist and disability movements). i know so many straight people who are like "i'm all for gay marriage, but all that partying and hookup culture and crossdressing and stuff is just icky and gross." if we look like monogamous middle-class straight (mainly white) couples, it's sorta kinda okay. other expressions of queerness are not okay.

obviously some straight people will never accept us no matter what. but it is true that if you try hard enough to conform and you don't have certain markers that automatically put you outside of the mainstream, you can get a little bit of conditional acceptance. and that's great. but it can be taken away in a heartbeat because that's how the society we live in operates. (and as we've seen with violence against poc and with the recent war on women, just as examples, it can be taken away from you no matter how much legal protection you think you have.) and some of us will never even have that.

[EnderD_503]

Originally Posted by Quintease

I don't see how denying gays equal rights to straights is helping the equality cause?

Surely we want to make being gay as legally safe and as normalised as possible so gays won't be discriminated against simply for being gay (or trans)?

Originally Posted by Quintease

I hate these people as guess what, WE DON'T LIVE IN THAT WORLD THAT YOU WANT!

I really think gay people stamping their feet and insisting that gays don't need marriage are hurting the cause, sorry but I do. It's very carriage-before-the-horse.

Yes it would be ideal to live in that world where gender and wedded bliss don't matter, but until we get there can we focus on something that the mainstream world/ Governments/ Religions/ Allies will understand? Can we just have a chance to be equal to everyone else first, before we start trying to change the society we live in. Surely equality is more important than fantasy right now?
People are dying out there, families are being split up , lovers are losing the right to see their loved ones, but these tossers have so much privilege that they can't be bothered to care about any of that? Fcuk them.

The bolded statement you've written is precisely why many of us do not see same sex marriage as the most important issue that should be at the forefront of queer/trans rights. Over and over again I've spoken as person who currently lives in a country where same sex marriage has been legal for years. Here in Canada "the policy" is there...what does it mean? Little to nothing for anyone who isn't a white middle class or upper class able-bodied cis sexed and wanna be normative gay. You want equality? Marriage rights isn't the most important drive towards equality. There are thousands of queer and trans people who are denied refugee status from nations where they truly are under threat of death or physical violence. Just as many or more who are imprisoned for being trans or queer, who are assaulted at the hands of governing bodies. Just as many who are homeless or live in subsidised housing, who are denied employment. Marriage for these people...it doesn't mean shit as far as being seen as human beings in the eyes of the government or society. Just like in Canada, same sex marriage will be passed in the US...and the white middle and upper classes will rejoice and forget about all other struggles...just like in Canada. Just like with the second wave feminist movement, those with the least social privilege will again be left behind, while the most privileged normative gays will be left to their white picket fence dreams.

That isn't the queer/trans community that is my community or the community I will fight for. I'm not going to sit here and fight for a time where only married couples are able to be united through immigration, or who can visit each other in the hospital or have benefits. You want to fight for the normative normalised dream, go ahead. But don't be surprised when there are so many of us who don't want that and who recognise that as much as certain classes of people will get the benefits, we aren't going to ignore the shit that continues to exist in marginalised communities.

[The_Lady_Snow]

I specifically started the thread because we ALL have different opinions on what's going on politically with "gay marriage" being a focus. We all aren't going to be shaking our head yes yes yes, some will stop think others may not.

The article I posted has some things I agree with others not, it certainly is nor has my opinion been stated by whining, shredding Obama apart or demonizing the marriage thing.

I expected different views and opinions with some being agreeable some not. It's not a pick a camp thread I'd hoped it could should be a conversation that could be civilly had knowing not everyone has to or will agree.


Opinions are just that, opinions

[The_Lady_Snow]

PS

I also agree strongly Toughy, religious hands are way to deep in the government cookie jar but that's a whole other thread and a whole other brain aneurism

[Gráinne]

I personally believe that one day, hopefully soon, gay marriage will be on the national level. It wasn't that long ago, in my lifetime actually, in which whites and minorities (not just African-Americans) could not marry. One by one, the anti-miscegenation laws were struck down until 1967. Then as now, it was the Deep South who were the last to get rid of them. Gay marriage will do the same.

[Cin]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I'd hoped it could should be a conversation that could be civilly had knowing not everyone has to or will agree.

Yes, and as with basic human rights equitably assured for all, it is certainly something we can hopefully achieve.

[Sachita]

I don't need someone's approval or acceptance about who I love or fuck. If it was illegal, lets face it in some places it is, I would have to be more careful. As a human being I want the same rights as everyone else, of course, however having lived in this USA I can't support any government venues. The whole thing with marriage, paperwork, etc is a big turn off to me. I understand equality but if you think about we have never ever been treated equal and as women we may not see that day in our lifetime. I also feel like its a sell out on their part and although I think Obama is a fucking great president I don't trust any of them.

I don't need legal marriage to show my love and devotion.

[Sparkle]

I am finding some of the posts in this thread disturbing and a bit mind boggling because it seems that the message is: if you're not exclusively cheerleading Obama in response to his announcement then you're a naysayer and a nitpicker and a parade-pee'er.

What is wrong with looking critically at the Presidents' actions and words?

I think Obama is a fantastic President. I admire him. On some issues I don't agree with the choices his administration has made. On other issues I am 100% behind him. I consider his bravery and progressiveness in relation to the LGBT rights groundbreaking, but let us be honest, the bar wasn't set very high (in terms of presidential support for equality). I think Obama publicly supporting gay marriage is amazing, unexpected and quite possibly political suicide.

I voted for Obama once and I will vote for him again, he already had my vote prior to his announcement and despite my critical view of his administration.

And I strongly agree with the posts of aishah and julieisafemme (and a few others), I believe we must CONTINUE to take a critical view of all of our political leaders. I believe we must keep our eye on the big picture, which includes a number of different legal rights, not just marriage.

I believe that "gay marriage" is one piece of the pie when it comes to LGBT rights. It is potentially a large piece of the pie IF (and only if) DOMA is repealed and legislation happens on a federal level.

While DOMA exists, marriage equality does not.
As an aside, I far prefer the phrase/term "marriage equality" to "gay marriage" which sounds a whole lot like "special rights" to me.

I live in Massachusetts, I've had the legal right to marry for years. I'm very proud of my state and grateful for the rights it affords me and very-very-very aware of the rights my state has no ability to give me (federal rights). I expatriated for this reason. I continue to funnel my resources in to immigration equality because my lack of rights impacted me so deeply.

Meanwhile...there are so many other pieces of the pie to be advocated for, to be fought for and to be won. And Obama saying he supports gay marriage, while a wonderful endorsement, does not equal legal change on any front.

It really bothers me that taking a critical view, not only of Obama's announcement but also the actual and potential legal and political ramifications of the announcement (or the lack there of) is labeled "picking apart" the President!

I celebrate Obama's announcement, I tip my hat, I salute him, I throw a virtual ticker tape parade for his announcement.

And I want more - I want full legal parity.
I want my basic human and civil rights. Full stop.

And I will not stop taking a critical view.
I hope, when the virtual confetti is swept off the virtual streets, the rest of our community won't either.

[blush]

Originally Posted by aishah

it's not that i don't think that gay marriage IS an issue, it's just that i don't think it should be the ONLY issue. maybe that makes me a privileged tosser.

i've been treated horribly and screwed over when my parents died, which scares the shit out of me when it comes to anything happening to myself or my partner, and it would make both of our lives a lot easier (with health insurance, for starters) if we could get married. it would make me feel safer in the event that something happens to us, given that neither of us are close to our families.

but at the same time...the people i am closest to in my community are dealing with issues like violence, police brutality, being unable to work or go to the bathroom, and homelessness, and i can't ignore the fact that those things have had a bigger and more immediate impact on our lives than whether we are allowed to marry. yet those issues will never get the kind of support that gay marriage does. i respect that those may not be the biggest or most immediate issues for everyone in the lgbtq community, but they are immediate and life-threatening issues for some of us.

and regardless of how anyone feels about gay marriage, obama's statement is a nice gesture but it doesn't have any concrete meaning.

There are always "more urgent issues" to fight for. A 5 minute speech stating his stance on a controversial civil rights issue takes nothing away from other issues. He's the fucking president. I hope he can multitask.

[aishah]

Originally Posted by blush

There are always "more urgent issues" to fight for. A 5 minute speech stating his stance on a controversial civil rights issue takes nothing away from other issues. He's the fucking president. I hope he can multitask.

my comments were on the attention given to the gay marriage issue as a whole, not just the president's speech, because i was addressing other issues brought up in the article snow posted. these were my comments specifically about the president's speech, in case you missed them:

* obama's statement doesn't actually mean anything concrete for queer folks. it's just a statement.
* the only reason he came out and said this now is because it's an election year.
* he's still allowing a civil rights issue to be treated as a states' rights issue, and as we saw in the civil rights movement, that does not work.

and regardless of how anyone feels about gay marriage, obama's statement is a nice gesture but it doesn't have any concrete meaning.

if i'm wrong, i wish someone would explain to me how this statement actually makes any meaningful difference in terms of getting gay marriage laws passed. obama still doesn't believe it's a federal issue; he still believes it's a states' rights issue. as we've seen in the civil rights movement, that basically means fuck all for equality. i'm touched that he gives a damn but...his 5 minute statement doesn't make much concrete difference in the current state of gay marriage in this country.

it's sweet but people are seriously acting like he passed gay marriage for everybody himself, based on the responses to it. he didn't actually DO anything. and my point was not that he can't multitask, it's that this is the ONLY relevant issue he's voiced ANY opinion on. fuck cece mcdonald being in jail. fuck trans women of color being murdered. obama will never speak about that because gay marriage is the only relevant political issue for him.

[CherylNYC]

Originally Posted by aishah

my comments were on the attention given to the gay marriage issue as a whole, not just the president's speech, because i was addressing other issues brought up in the article snow posted. these were my comments specifically about the president's speech, in case you missed them:



if i'm wrong, i wish someone would explain to me how this statement actually makes any meaningful difference in terms of getting gay marriage laws passed. obama still doesn't believe it's a federal issue; he still believes it's a states' rights issue. as we've seen in the civil rights movement, that basically means fuck all for equality. i'm touched that he gives a damn but...his 5 minute statement doesn't make much concrete difference in the current state of gay marriage in this country.

it's sweet but people are seriously acting like he passed gay marriage for everybody himself, based on the responses to it. he didn't actually DO anything. and my point was not that he can't multitask, it's that this is the ONLY relevant issue he's voiced ANY opinion on. fuck cece mcdonald being in jail. fuck trans women of color being murdered. obama will never speak about that because gay marriage is the only relevant political issue for him.

Deep breath. I'm guessing you're much, much younger than I am, and that you have no memories of just how oppressively anti-gay the entire U.S. was just 30 years ago. I'm guessing that you weren't even born yet, so how would you know what it felt like to live in a world where young lesbian and gay people killed themselves, or were killed, with depressing regularity and impunity? When a gay person was sexually assaulted and/or killed, it didn't even make the news. Ever. It happened FAR, far more often than it happens now, but there were no news personalities publicly lamenting the end of a promising young life due to bullying, because NO ONE believed that a gay man or lesbian could have a promising life. No one wore special purple clothes in solidarity, and NO ONE ever even admitted publicly that the reason why a kid might have killed themselves was because they were, (gasp), homosexual. That was because most people, including and especially the families of lgbt kids and adults, were relieved to have lost the shame of having someone who was 'like that' in their families. There were a few unpleasant whispers, and then everyone went about their business. If we were ever portrayed in any movie we were venal, sinister stereotypes. Lesbians in particular either turned to men, or they committed suicide. Every fucking time. There were NO lgbt people on TV. EVER. No one even said the word 'lesbian'. It sounded... dirty.

I remember the huge leap forward when it was no longer an invitation to be fined, boycotted, and/or censored to say the word, and news orgs actually agreed to report that a person was a h-h-homosexual. Except it wasn't much of a leap because a person who came out of the closet was either an 'admitted homosexual', or an 'avowed homosexual'. I remember when the owner of the New York Times declared that the paper of record would NEVER replace 'homosexual' with 'gay or lesbian'. My cousin and his partner have miraculously been together for nearly 40 years. For the first DECADE AND A HALF of their relationship, Bill had to invent an imaginary female partner so that he didn't lose his job. For the first decade of their relationship they both could have been institutionalised had a malicious person said something to the wrong authority. And that was in New York fucking City. It was far, far worse in the rest of the country.

I'm not talking about ancient history. I'm talking about the 19 freaking 80s. Perhaps that seems like ancient history to you, but it's pretty flipping recent to those of us who lived through that shit. I'm about to turn 50, and my friends who are a decade older tell stories that turn my lesbian blood to ice. If you had said 20 years ago, or even 10 years ago, that I might see marraige equality in my lifetime I would have hurt myself laughing.

Why am I ranting now? Because the President of the United fucking States just said out loud that he supports marraige equality. Perhaps the office of President isn't very impressive to you, either. Perhaps you haven't noticed that we in the U.S. have ALL the money and ALL the power. For better or worse, we're the 2000 pound gorrilla in the room full of puny little lemurs. Like it or not, the President of the US has at least twice as much real power, (financial, military, diplomatic), than the leaders of all the countries in the E.U., plus all the countries in the Middle East put together. And then some. That person just made a monumental statement about those of us who lived through institutional shit so bad that many still can't talk about it. That statement says, "You are equal, and your relationships are equal". That carries a huge emotional weight as well as real political weight.

In case you never studied civics, the President of the U.S. is in charge of a lot more than just signing bills into law. Among other things, she or he can push legislation through Congress, and can signal Congress about the bills she or he won't sign. That means real power over real legislation. In other words, Obama's word carries more real weight than the word of any other person on earth right now.

Am I pissed off? Obviously. That's partly because the myopia of saying that marraige equality is an issue that only affects middle class and wealthy people is infuriating. How many elder lesbians have to live in extreme poverty before anyone notices that they're poor because they're not entitiled to their late partner's Social Security benefits? WTF? And, by the way, is there something wrong with benefitting middle class people? Are we not supposed to care about the welfare of middle class people as well as people of all other income levels?

I'm going to take another deep breath and stop ranting now, because I feel tempted to say something rude. I will say, if you can't figure out why this was an historic moment, perhaps you should read more history.

[julieisafemme]

Wow Cheryl. I do understand your feelings. I am 46 and I don't consider myself very young. I am aware of history. I am aware of the many times in my own life when I thought I could not go on because of how I thought about my sexual identity. I am aware of all of things i gave up when I came out 4 years ago.

I agree with Aishah. As Ender has mentioned about what has happened in Canada, marriage equality in the US is not going to bring ALL queers forward. There is nothing stupid or ignorant of history in pointing that out. My partner is a Transman. Here in California he can change his birth certificate and marry legally. Some states, while not expressly prohibiting transpeople marrying, rely on court decisions to nullify marriages. Just take a look at Nicki Arraguz and her "legal" marriage that was challenged and nullified in Texas.

Lastly please don't think that marriage gives people inviolable rights in medical or financial decisions. I work in financial services and I can tell you many stories about heterosexual married couples who did not plan properly and families came in and changed things after a spouse died. It happens. Certainly not in the degree that it hapens in gay couples but it does happen.

What is wrong with wanting the president to say that all human beings, regardless of sexual orientation or sex or gender identity have the right to marry? I am not discounting his statement in any way. I am thrilled tha same sex marriage will be legalized. I won't though sit here and woo hoo aren't we all taken care of now. Does not mean I am negative, young, ignorant of history.