Law and Order: SVU with Special Guest Kathy Griffin as lesbian

[Mister Bent]

Originally Posted by Cyclopea

That's weird- a conversation on media representation and cultural perception of lesbians is exactly what I've seen taking place in this thread. So yes, you are mistaken. I'm not going to "direct you" because I'm not going to waste my time breaking it down for someone whose apparent agenda is instructing lesbians and women on how they should frame conversations on their issues to more properly engage his interest.
If the subject is not interesting to you then don't read it. Insulting the intelligence of everyone who posted in the thread may not be the best tactic for getting what it is that you seek.

To state my "agenda" as you did was a huge leap of illogic wrought of assumption. "Instructing lesbians and women on how they should frame conversations on their issues?"

You completely dismiss that there are trans/queer/and male members of the site posting in this thread, yet you state that I was only addressing the lesbians and women. Interesting, though false.

A conversation on media representation of lgbt individuals and community could be quite compelling, speculation about whether Mariska Hargitay is gay or not, how many gays will jump for joy should she reveal herself to be, is not. And frankly, I found the whole conversation about lesbians who are former strippers sort of gross. (Which is more about the way it was presented than the topic itself.)

Yes, I think it's safe to say you entirely misread my "agenda."

If you really want to discuss what the conversation here has been, the fact is lately it's been more focused on the imbalance of power in Hollywood (in terms of revenue & status) than on "media representation." Otherwise, I'm done discussing your offense at my post and would much prefer to discuss that while Ellen's tv sitcom tanked after she came out, she now has a very widely viewed talk show and was selected to host the immensely popular American Idol.

Tiny in-road for gays and lesbians or mainstream culture tossing us a bone?

[torchiegirl]

That clip was weird. My eyebrows are still pulled down.

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

To state my "agenda" as you did was a huge leap of illogic wrought of assumption. "Instructing lesbians and women on how they should frame conversations on their issues?"

You completely dismiss that there are trans/queer/and male members of the site posting in this thread, yet you state that I was only addressing the lesbians and women. Interesting, though false.

Not at all. I do believe it was you that insulted everyone posting, not me. I appreciate the input of allies in this discussion which began on the topic of a specific media representation of lesbians. No one else instructed lesbians and women on how they should alter their discussion to maintain the interest of non-lesbians. Only you. Interesting the assumption you made. Very interesting.


A conversation on media representation of lgbt individuals and community could be quite compelling, speculation about whether Mariska Hargitay is gay or not, how many gays will jump for joy should she reveal herself to be, is not. And frankly, I found the whole conversation about lesbians who are former strippers sort of gross. (Which is more about the way it was presented than the topic itself.)
Yes, you've already made clear that the topic is not of interest to you. It is to others. Obviously.


Yes, I think it's safe to say you entirely misread my "agenda."

If you really want to discuss what the conversation here has been, the fact is lately it's been more focused on the imbalance of power in Hollywood (in terms of revenue & status) than on "media representation." Otherwise, I'm done discussing your offense at my post and would much prefer to discuss that while Ellen's tv sitcom tanked after she came out, she now has a very widely viewed talk show and was selected to host the immensely popular American Idol.

Tiny in-road for gays and lesbians or mainstream culture tossing us a bone?

----------------------------

[Mister Bent]

Cyclopea, if you feel insulted or dismissed by my post, that's one thing.

But to consistently try to apply to me an agenda that is nowhere in evidence simply comes across as personal issue on your part.

Nowhere did I address my comments toward "lesbians and women." I'm not sure why it's so important to you to paint me as a misogynist homophobe, but I can assure you, I am not.

If you'd like to continue to promote your argument, please consider using the handy PM feature, because this is tiresome.

Thanks.

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by Mister Bent

Cyclopea, if you feel insulted or dismissed by my post, that's one thing.

But to consistently try to apply to me an agenda that is nowhere in evidence simply comes across as personal issue on your part.

Nowhere did I address my comments toward "lesbians and women." I'm not sure why it's so important to you to paint me as a misogynist homophobe, but I can assure you, I am not.

If you'd like to continue to promote your argument, please consider using the handy PM feature, because this is tiresome.

Thanks.

I have a “personal issue”? Yes, I do. My “personal issue” is that most LGBTQQI people find the topic of whether or not a public figure is “one of us” quite interesting. Meredith Baxter, Markista Hargitray, Vin Deisel, Chaz Bono, Jodi Foster or Caster Semenya, all interesting to LGBTQQI peeps and our allies. We also find the “coming out” of celebrities quite interesting. Media representations of LGBTQQI people: also intrinsically interesting. We don’t need to frame our comments by outlining the social history of LGBTQQI people because most of us have been soaking in it for years. Therefore we often speak in a shorthand on such topics among ourselves.

You’ve stated repeatedly that the topic of whether famous actors are lesbian or not is of no interest to you, and instructed posters repeatedly to frame our conversation on lesbian visibility in a way that is more interesting to you. My “personal” response is to ask you to desist insulting lesbian members and our allies that do find this conversation interesting. It’s unfortunate that I am not able to effectively communicate something to you that seems so obvious and fundamental. Perhaps that is my failing, or perhaps simply a sign of your personal issues. I am not interested in PMing a stranger who insults me and everyone in the thread. If you continue to make dismissive comments I will continue to address them.

[Soft*Silver]

and I wasnt even Kissed...

but neither was Marisa...

OH but HE was kissed...

and the flaming lesbo was iced down and refried into a bisexual....

personally there is nothing wrong with bisexuals in my book. My ANGER is that they marketed to and targeted lesbians and the show was hyped as having a lesbian kiss segment

and the video promo I saw, the gals DID kiss..but oh no not tonight...

I am boycotting SVU..... they lost my loyalty...

damn..this was worse than when my batteries ran out...

[Cyclopea]

Originally Posted by softness

and I wasnt even Kissed...

but neither was Marisa...

OH but HE was kissed...

and the flaming lesbo was iced down and refried into a bisexual....

personally there is nothing wrong with bisexuals in my book. My ANGER is that they marketed to and targeted lesbians and the show was hyped as having a lesbian kiss segment

and the video promo I saw, the gals DID kiss..but oh no not tonight...

I am boycotting SVU..... they lost my loyalty...

damn..this was worse than when my batteries ran out...

Hahaha Testify sistah!

[Write14u]

Not surprisingly, I forgot it was coming on. I don't watch much TV.

[Cyclopea]

What I learned from SVU tonight:

-Lesbians are cultlike followers

-Lesbians are overreactive angry harpies

-Outspoken or politically active women are harpies

-Lesbianism is a choice

-Lesbianism is malleable in the presence of the "right" man

-Lesbians recruit

-Lesbians are attracted to and hit on every attractive straight women that crosses their path

-Lesbians are quick to misinterpret the intentions of well-meaning straight women

-Lesbians believe straight women cannot be "strong" or work in non-traditional jobs

-Organizations or groups that focus on specifically lesbian concerns are exclusionary and should not exist

-Aggressives have secret nicknames and would lie about a nickname even if it undermined the murder investigation of their significant other

-Aggressives are crazy violent criminals

-Women who embrace their masculinity are secretive and express that masculinity through violence

-Masculinity=violence

-Transgendered lesbians do not exist

-Bisexuals lie about, and are ashamed of their affectational orientation and only come out when forced

-Bisexuals with boyfriends who are hospitalized with gunshot wounds kiss any hot guy that's around and tell them to "give me a call"

-Lesbians reject bisexuals because bisexuals make a choice of sexual orientation that they themselves could also make, but reject

-When females tell males they are sexist asses they really just want to make out

Now I remember why I hate that show. BTW I was working on something and couldn't immediately change the channel and found the beginning of the second episode every bit as annoying: when Martiska Hargatroy told the prostitute she could go to an agency "right now" that would house her, feed her, give her emotional support and therapy and "help her get her GED" (IE: She was a prostitute by choice because plentiful well-funded agencies are standing by waiting to fulfill all her needs- what a load of shit).

As an OZ fan the intense reunion embrace of Beecher and Keller was amusing tho.

All in all, SUV is sexist, homophobic, stupit, and sucks. Reminds me all the more to try and represent for my lesbian sistahs. (Until the right man comes along of course.)

[Dragonfly]

So I did that thing I do that is so annoying.

I tried to find something good to relate to or say about that show...

1) It was LBGTQIA** that she publically informed everyone watching..... I liked that it was an attempt to include everyone
** standing for Lesbian/Bisexual/Gay/Trans/Questioning/Intersexed/Allies
(even if it got twisted and made to seem like everyone who now tries to inform others may be treated like a fanatic, like that character, they may then tune out and ask "So when will ya turn Bi?" )



2) It may have helped in disparaging the myth that the Queer Community is exempt of violence against women or Domestic violence, or that it is a less diverse range of any type of people than the hetero community... and said something like the statement "just like strait". I like that because that kind of thinking is an obstacle for women in our community when they do need to seek help for violent acts against them by same sex partners. Some have been laughed off and or turned away.

** (I use Queer when talking about the community I feel connected to. It is my personal choice of a word that to me defines what I personally view as everyone before the "ally" letter of the above anacronym.)



3) It touched on something I have seen happen in the queer community relating to how some are so ultra sensitized by the daily insults and discrimination from the outside world that they: can be abrasive to someone who is not biased.... They can turn on one another, discriminate against certain "types" of their own community (bisexuals and femmes sometimes have this happen to them, just not soo often that svu is right to stereotype us all to be "like that"), her character on the show also alienates actual supporters by projecting the defensive over reaction to every single thing said... wrong place and time to say that!! Umm but we should be careful NOT to seem like that... especially now that people have seen THAT episode.



At the same time this "bright side" I saw.. if you call it bright... was also where I was yelling at the tv. These three were a real stretch, even for me Ms. Pollyanna. I REALLY hated the world maybe thinking that the lesbian community views someone who realizes they are bi as a "traitor" and that we peer pressure one another to stay gay. UGH that bothered me because even though I have seen it, never really want to think that is the majority attitude that bi's are not included. Or men of any sexuality are mistreated by lesbians. It's not the norm I want portrayed as an accurate example of any of us...


OK thats all I could vomit up good or positive about tonights SVU show. I'd prefer to just say "yeah what she said in that list above"

But cause I cant communicate "me too" ALL the time ...

Next I will be resorting to saying "Well at least Aggressives were mentioned" rather than go off about what THAT one is gonna stir up for butches and trans. The masculine women in the queer community were just represented as Domestic Abusers. Regardless of my no. 2 up there, I think the show will do more harm than good by making that person an abuser. Coulda touched on same sex domestic violence without targeting or stereotyping.



P.S. I know VERY little about "aggressives" and if they are any way related to the butch term ...? Am I the only one wondering? If so be gentle with me. No disrespect meant in this post at all. I am still shell shocked from the whole day today. I have heard the term mentioned in the "BF: are these terms antiquidated" thread. Scared to ask back then... But I dont trust public opinion on some random site that comes up on a search. I Want to read about it here where I trust more that I am getting an educated answer.

I have heard of the documentary called "The Aggressives" but havent seen it, or heard our own perspective of accuracy, like if there are stereotypes to look beyond.

See a review at : http://www.buygay.com/the-aggressives/p-231574-2

[PapaC]

My response in bold

Originally Posted by Cyclopea

What I learned from SVU tonight:

-Lesbians are cultlike followers

Some of what was presented on the show tonight is unfortunately accurate, Cyclo. I've seen and and been a part of ridiculous blind loyalty to unscrupulous characters who yes, happen to be part of the LGBT community. Cultlike? Thank you, that's very good word actually.

-Lesbians are overreactive angry harpies

Some are, absolutely. Come on? Are you going to deny that angry lesbians don't exist? with or without justifiable reasons?

-Outspoken or politically active women are harpies
See above

-Lesbianism is a choice
hmmm.... no sure how to comment on that one.

-Lesbianism is malleable in the presence of the "right" man
It happens. Can you (and others) deal with that? Care to take a guess on how many of my lesbian/queer partners ended up or turned an eye towards men? Think I give a shit or think they weren't 'real' lesbians at the time? or that their queer politics weren't in check?

-Lesbians recruit
Some try to, proudly. How many married women have dated lesbians and then came out? (putting my hand up)

-Lesbians are attracted to and hit on every attractive straight women that crosses their path
Yeah, I'll agree Griffin's character was a bit over the top on that. but is Law and Order the series, and the show stating this by having this type of character on one episode? Really?

-Lesbians are quick to misinterpret the intentions of well-meaning straight women
I saw as them having a difference in perspective because hello, a lot of well-meaning straight women actually do NOT get it, or understand

-Lesbians believe straight women cannot be "strong" or work in non-traditional jobs
no particular comment or argument there.

-Organizations or groups that focus on specifically lesbian concerns are exclusionary and should not exist
Why do you feel they should not exist? Do you think that was the message they were trying to convey? I think the message was, 'LesBeStrong' was more exclusively about Lesbian rights, yes, but when its founder comes out as Bi, or more true to herself, she felt the need to open it more to LGBT. Is there anything wrong with that message?

-Aggressives have secret nicknames and would lie about a nickname even if it undermined the murder investigation of their significant other
I don't know (personally) anyone who IDs as an Aggressive however, there are many many butches I know with 'secret' or secondary 'boi' names. I thought that was quite accurate and on point.

-Aggressives are crazy violent criminals
I'd imagine some of them are. So? It's called LAW AND ORDER. It's a show that's going to show insavory characters who have violent streaks. This time, an aggressive. Is that so wrong and inaccurate? really?

-Women who embrace their masculinity are secretive and express that masculinity through violence
Again, see above. They questioned one aggressive, who was violent. There were a sea of others on the show that didn't express their masculinity that way.

-Masculinity=violence
see above

-Transgendered lesbians do not exist
and was this episode supposed to showcase every single type of queer? in one hour?

-Bisexuals lie about, and are ashamed of their affectational orientation and only come out when forced
Wanna take a guess at how many femmes and butches have had to be in the closet about being bi, or worse be labelled players and sluts by other femmes and butches in our community because they happened to like dick (past or present?). Would you like to know some of the reasons why I personally stayed in the closet for 6 years longer than I personally should have? If you don't have a history of being bisexual, you are not aware of the rampant bi-phobia that continues to exist in this very community. Again, that portrayal of Griffen's character reasons for being in the closet was sadly, very very on point.


-Bisexuals with boyfriends who are hospitalized with gunshot wounds kiss any hot guy that's around and tell them to "give me a call"
The little bit made me laugh actually,. It was entertaining. Like a hot gay men's kiss.

-Lesbians reject bisexuals because bisexuals make a choice of sexual orientation that they themselves could also make, but reject
SEE ABOVE


All in all, SUV is sexist, homophobic, stupit, and sucks. Reminds me all the more to try and represent for my lesbian sistahs. (Until the right man comes along of course.)

Ok, granted I can respect that opinion, but really, is it the only show that has flavourings of sexism, homophibia, and stupidity? Have you ever seen "How I Met Your Mother" where the principle character is a sexist, quasi homophobic character, played by a gay man in real life: Neal Patrick Harris? Real eye opener of an episode I saw last night, I can tell you. I've liked Neal Patrick Harris as an actor for years, but won't be visiting that show any time soon.

Look, I get it. It's important to have a critical eye with queer-themed episodes on mainstream shows like Law and Order. I totally get it. But, was it ALL bad? was it ALL inaccurate? Is it wrong to GASP, have queer violent perps. showcased on TV?

Here's my personal malfunction, Cyclo: as a survivor of non-consensual date rape by a lesbian in the late '90's it's important for me to see some accuracy (and therefore, some portrayal) of this very hidden facet of our community .

And that brings me to perhaps the best line in the whole episode. If there's a "take away" from this ep. it's here:

Like B.D Wong's character stated "Like everyone else, it all boils down to the individual. Which is why gays and lesbians are not immune to domestic violence, substance abuse, rape... just more proof that we're all equal

In 2009, I had to explain to family members (intelligent but straight family members) that yes, domestic violence can exist between two men, just like it can exist between two women (or female born). I didn't come out to them about my date rape because it would have been too hard for them to grasp "how" and "why". I had to explain to them just exactly how 'normal' (and by that, I kinda mean how fucked up) we all are.

I've told and will continue to tell anyone who might be questioning or coming out, that there's no sacredness to loving women (or wimmin/womyn/ etc if you prefer). Just because the majority of us here were born with vaginas (and still possess them) doesn't mean we are on some sort of higher plane of existence, intellectualism, altruism or any of that sort of nonsense.

We're people. The good and the bad, the ying and yang.

I'm not saying there's not a patriarchical society, the fuckedupness of masculinity paraded as 'more-than'.... (heck that's felt in queer circles, but I'm sure you're aware of this, yes?)

sometimes it's just about the heart. The heart wants what the heart wants.

oh, P.S. thanks for showing that hot gay kiss though. I might start watching OZ again.

[TIMBERWOLF]

Originally Posted by softness

and I wasnt even Kissed...

but neither was Marisa...

OH but HE was kissed...

and the flaming lesbo was iced down and refried into a bisexual....

personally there is nothing wrong with bisexuals in my book. My ANGER is that they marketed to and targeted lesbians and the show was hyped as having a lesbian kiss segment

and the video promo I saw, the gals DID kiss..but oh no not tonight...

I am boycotting SVU..... they lost my loyalty...

damn..this was worse than when my batteries ran out...

Yes I was disappointed only because they hyped it up and i saw the you tube but at the "kiss" they shaved it off like she missed.But then gave the guy at the end a big kisser. I will still watch SVU because i like the show but yeah they should have left the full kiss in.
Anyways have to jump in for a shower and get out on the road....later
TIMBER