Christians apologizing

[Gráinne]

Originally Posted by Ciaran

I agree with most of your post but I struggle to understand this perspective. I totally understand how this Professor can apologise for his own actions against those who were black. However, what gives him the right to apologise for others in the way that they have acted?

To me, whilst I'm sure it's not intended as such, offering up an apology on behalf of a people is extremely arrogant unless you are an official representative of those people and have explicit authority to offer up such an apology.

In this instance, this Professor appears to be taking it upon himself to speak for, and represent, a large proportion of society. He doesn't. He can only represent himself (and, perhaps, those in his close circle) .... he cannot assume the voice of others.

Gotta quit following Ciaran around into threads like this one (I'm really not!)

This reminds me of the movement that pops up now and then, that white people should pay reparations to African-Americans for slavery, as a kind of apology. I see obvious problems with that: not every person of color is African-American, or descended from slaves, the lineage of many people of color in this country is much longer than that of most whites, so many white people weren't even here during those years; how do you classify biracial people, etc. That's another post, and probably a heated one .

Same with say, one German apologizing for all of Germany for the Holocaust. Many Germans opposed the Nazis and others aided Jews and other victims.

I just don't see how one person can speak for an entire group, when not all of that group participated in any kind of oppression.

[Ciaran]

Originally Posted by guihong

I just don't see how one person can speak for an entire group, when not all of that group participated in any kind of oppression.

I've more thoughts on this matter and will post them when my 12 hour office day ends .... Alas, it has only begun.

[Quintease]

This is awesome, but long

[Wolfsong]

Aw that makes me sad. This was in Chicago. We saw these guys and walked away with a warm fuzzy feeling that maybe some corners were being turned.

Who knows maybe they were. If at least one of them changed their hearts while out there with us wouldn't it have been worth it? How many of us have had some redemptive feelings while doing a task we really didn't want to do? Say, for example, reluctantly agreeing to serve food at a homeless shelter and finding out something not only about the people you are serving, but yourselves as well?

I believe that God speaks to us in many ways that we do not expect. The twin to that picture is one of the parade participants hugging one of the Christians and crying. Whether the pastor was legit or not, in that moment, those two people were bonded and shared a moment of love, pleace, and healing. Maybe instead of fighting a complete battle, we should be fighting the battle of moments. Like this one. Moments that are strung together to make a change. I think, that's how you change hearts. One moment at a time.

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[blush]

Originally Posted by Quintease

This is awesome, but long

Thank you so much for posting this! What an amazing young man.

[Ciaran]

Originally Posted by guihong

I just don't see how one person can speak for an entire group, when not all of that group participated in any kind of oppression.

I think it's more basic than that. Rather, it's not whether all in the group participated in what is being apologised for. Instead, it's whether all the group, whether they participated or not, actually feel a desire or a need to apologise.

For example, someone might suggest that he or she is apologising on behalf of all Christians for the injustices that GLBT peoples have suffered over the years. However, that person is indicating that he or she speaks for an entire people or movement when clearly he or she does not. A personal apology is real - an apology from a person on behalf of a people or movement may have honourable intentions but it comes across, to me at least, as crass and arrogant.



There are times when it is possible to apologise on behalf of a people. That's when the person apologising is in the (fortunate) position to be able to do so from both a personal and a corporate perspective i.e. as a bone fide representative of a people or society.

Originally Posted by guihong

Same with say, one German apologizing for all of Germany for the Holocaust. Many Germans opposed the Nazis and others aided Jews and other victims.

Ironically, probably the most moving example of this in the 20th century was when the West German Chancellor Willy Brandt fell to his knees at the holocaust memorial on a state visit to Warsaw in 1970:



This was an extremely poignant moment and went some way towards easing some of the multitude of pain that remained following World War Two. That's not to suggest that all Germans were responsible for the attrocities caused by the Nazis. However, it was right and proper that the German nation apologised for this.

That said, it had to be the Head of State doing so, as Head of State but with personal emotion. A German individual cannot apologise on behalf of the German people / German nation anymore than I cannot apologise on behalf of the Northern Irish people for the attrocities that have been carried out by my people against the England nation over recent decades.


Hope that makes sense. I realise that my spelling here is proper English (i.e. we don't use "z"s) not Americanised English and that's something I definitely won't be apologising for

[boobookitty]

Originally Posted by Ciaran

I think it's more basic than that. Rather, it's not whether all in the group participated in what is being apologised for. Instead, it's whether all the group, whether they participated or not, actually feel a desire or a need to apologise.

>>I think it's more basic than that.

So do I, I am not the 'group' I in no way speak for the 'group' I am a person who knows better, I know more than the unenlightended persons within the group as far as education and experience is concerned. I am not a follower in a crowd, I am a lone voice, standing up, for what is right. I offer a small hope that others will learn as I have and make the turn to no longer follow the crowd.

>> Rather, it's not whether all in the group participated in what is being apologised for.

So, I as an individual and what I have to say, mean nothing to you? ... it doesn't matter that I personally didn't, "do the crime" so to speak, it doesn't matter that I know its wrong and say its wrong to treat gay's or any other human being in a hurtful, harmful and judgemental way just because of the way they are?
So then... I am now, by your standard, a person who has no right to set myself apart and say I don't agree with the 'group"? I don't fit the stereotype... I know that 'they' (the loud mouthed majority) are wrong and it hurts me? ..that it makes me sad to see it? ... You don't want to hear the truth that I know, they have twisted the words and rewritten the book? Are you saying, you will not accept--from me--? That they are NOT speaking the truth, but they are spouting a misrepresentation of that truth I know.


>> Instead, it's whether all the group, whether they participated or not, actually feel a desire or a need to apologise


faith in Christ is not a 'group pass' event, it is an individual relationship between the Creator and the created,

when a gang of 'red shirts', attact a person in the street, does that make all of the people with 'red shirts' equally responsible?... of course not.

When I see someone spouting hate, under a Christian banner, I hurt. I would like to be able to make them stop, but I can't control them.
All I can do is say, "I am sorry, it isn't right for that to happen."

... and you have the choice to accept what I say as valid...
or lump me in with the crowd.

Its interesting how prejudice works that way.

[Kobi]

I can be incredibly literal but I dont take people apologizing on behalf of a group they belong to literally. It is a figurative thing to me. It is an acknowledgement that there is a disconnect between what ones faith says and what it does. And, it is an acknowlegdement that it is not an ok thing to do. To me, that is a very powerful thing for an individual to do.

In the same vein, I dont have a problem with the "love the sinner but not the sin" perspective. To me, to love the "sinner" requires them to acknowledge I am a human being....just like them. To me, that is where the potential for change lies. One on one, not one against an institution is where hearts change. That, to me, is where the power is.

It is all in ones perspective. Some need very public declarations of acceptance and validation, some need laws for equality and equity, some need to see their oppressors almost in a subserviant, remorseful position on their knees begging for forgiveness ad infinitum, some need something external to heal the inner wounds, some just want an attitude of live and let live, some need a combination of things. Different stuff works for different people for different reasons at different times.

To me, what is important is remembering we are all human and with that humanness comes a lot of good stuff as well as unpleasant and upsetting stuff. Accepting oneself as well as others as imperfect, flawed, yet interconnected human beings. Herein, to me, is where the potential for lasting change and peace resides.

We easily see the hatred outside of our community directed at our community. Yet, we try hard to be blind to the hatred within our community directed at one another. Be it racism, sexism, misogyny, transphobia, classism, elitism etc.

I do believe, as long as we (general we) believe there is an us and a them, strife will continue. Healing of the human condition will come when it comes from and for a collective we. As long as we focus on the trees, the forest will remain out of sight.

[blush]

Originally Posted by Kobi

I can be incredibly literal but I dont take people apologizing on behalf of a group they belong to literally. It is a figurative thing to me. It is an acknowledgement that there is a disconnect between what ones faith says and what it does. And, it is an acknowlegdement that it is not an ok thing to do. To me, that is a very powerful thing for an individual to do.

In the same vein, I dont have a problem with the "love the sinner but not the sin" perspective. To me, to love the "sinner" requires them to acknowledge I am a human being....just like them. To me, that is where the potential for change lies. One on one, not one against an institution is where hearts change. That, to me, is where the power is.

It is all in ones perspective. Some need very public declarations of acceptance and validation, some need laws for equality and equity, some need to see their oppressors almost in a subserviant, remorseful position on their knees begging for forgiveness ad infinitum, some need something external to heal the inner wounds, some just want an attitude of live and let live, some need a combination of things. Different stuff works for different people for different reasons at different times.

To me, what is important is remembering we are all human and with that humanness comes a lot of good stuff as well as unpleasant and upsetting stuff. Accepting oneself as well as others as imperfect, flawed, yet interconnected human beings. Herein, to me, is where the potential for lasting change and peace resides.

We easily see the hatred outside of our community directed at our community. Yet, we try hard to be blind to the hatred within our community directed at one another. Be it racism, sexism, misogyny, transphobia, classism, elitism etc.

I do believe, as long as we (general we) believe there is an us and a them, strife will continue. Healing of the human condition will come when it comes from and for a collective we. As long as we focus on the trees, the forest will remain out of sight.

You make some great points! My thoughts on the "love the sinner" theory is that is lumps who I am, fundamentally, with sin. Sin like murder. Sin like cheating. And it's even worse than that because to avoid my "sin," I must be alone. That's not acceptable to me.

[Arwen]

I'm fairly adamant about my feelings on "love the sinner". It pisses me right off to be told that the way I express my feelings of safety and comfort and joy with another human being is somehow wrong? Bull shit.

And what's more? I don't want an apology from anyone who didn't do it. That's like asking blush to apologize to me for an English professor who gave me a 90 on a test. She had nothing to do with that.

That kind of apology is very hollow to me.

Mainstream Christians couldn't be further from Christ's teaching. I've read the Bible, believe it or not. I've had some heart-to-heart discussions with some fundamental Christians who are, in my opinion for all that matters, true followers of Yeshua. They felt that the person they needed to work the hardest on was themselves. One woman, named Rose, stunned me when she looked me in the eye and said, "I can't judge you. I'm not perfect."

I'd heard that statement before (and since), but it moved me deeply. It's because of people like her and others (some right here in the thread) that I don't close my heart and mind to all those who claim to be followers of Christ.

I may not be a follower but I do believe in the power of being good to one another. And that's what I hope to see a lot more of. Not these fools who want to cause more trouble in Christ's name.

That's just one non-Christian's input. Just don't apologize to me unless you have something to apologize for.

[blush]

Originally Posted by Arwen

I'm fairly adamant about my feelings on "love the sinner". It pisses me right off to be told that the way I express my feelings of safety and comfort and joy with another human being is somehow wrong? Bull shit.

And what's more? I don't want an apology from anyone who didn't do it. That's like asking blush to apologize to me for an English professor who gave me a 90 on a test. She had nothing to do with that.

That kind of apology is very hollow to me.

Mainstream Christians couldn't be further from Christ's teaching. I've read the Bible, believe it or not. I've had some heart-to-heart discussions with some fundamental Christians who are, in my opinion for all that matters, true followers of Yeshua. They felt that the person they needed to work the hardest on was themselves. One woman, named Rose, stunned me when she looked me in the eye and said, "I can't judge you. I'm not perfect."

I'd heard that statement before (and since), but it moved me deeply. It's because of people like her and others (some right here in the thread) that I don't close my heart and mind to all those who claim to be followers of Christ.

I may not be a follower but I do believe in the power of being good to one another. And that's what I hope to see a lot more of. Not these fools who want to cause more trouble in Christ's name.

That's just one non-Christian's input. Just don't apologize to me unless you have something to apologize for.

Actually, it WAS me on that test. Sorry.

The whole "love the sinner" gambit adds to the feeling of "otherness." Because, unlike murder or other sins, we're more than likely going to do it again. So while everyone sins, our sins are unique in that they are unavoidable.

For the record, I do not follow the Christian faith. I respect all religions, and I acknowledge the special cultural significance Christianity has in the US.

As far as apologizing, it depends on intent. I would love to see a spiritual overhaul and redefining of homosexuality as not a sin. As long as homosexuality is seen as a sin, something punishable, something that we have to deny, apologies are meaningless. It's like saying, "We're sorry we were THAT mean to you. We still think you're shit, but we went too far." I find it super interesting that homosexuality seems to rank on the really, really bad sins. You don't see cheaters or murders being harassed the way we are.

As far as apologizing for the masses, it again depends. I will accept any sincere apology with personal responsibility. It isn't necessary, but change is.