The Strong Butch Female/Woman in a Patriarchal World

[Jett]

Originally Posted by adorable

So then what is there to argue about? Yet it happens over and over and over and over......
It apparently is MORE then a petty squabble but based on everything you said here what exactly is the "more important" fight? Is it the part I highlighted? Why does someone need to make sexism go away to feel comfortable in their skin? And why does there need to be a loftier goal of breaking down gender stereotypes when that is how people feel INSIDE?
On one hand you say: it doesn't matter to me one whit
On the other you seem to be saying something else entirely.

The second part I highlighted I hope that means for you personally because I think that everyone needs to live their own truth. Speaking up for YOURSELF makes sense to me. Speaking out against others because they are different seems rather unfair.

Why are you inferring this is an argument against others rather than one for ourselves?

Do you see other discussions between specific masculine ID groups as an affront to everyone else, rather than discussion of ID related issues good and bad? Have you enter those conversations with your points?

This is not an argument... unless you make it one. This thread is not about male ID... unless you make it one.

I for one am hoping it can be about Female ID and Women ID.

[Apocalipstic]

I just wanted to say that I support you, your thread and Bull Dykes everywhere!

[adorable]

Metro - I get the meaning of your OP. I had just been thinking about what I put out there. I didn't mean to derail the thread. lol. Or omg! start an argument. I wouldn't. I would ask for clarification though...because it does often seem like there is some miscommunication going on. I've always wondered why were just aren't all on the same side.

But if this thread is just for female ID butches that won't happen. <--and that is NOT intended to be sarcastic - that is geniune. I understand the space.

Atlast - history is understood but forgotten over time. That is why almost everything that happens repeats itself.

Bulldog - I wasn't trying to start nuttin' pinky swear. lol. Just thinking about what I thought is all. Then thinking about what you thought.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by BullDog

People talk a lot about fighting against the binary. OK great but I personally don't see that we have made much "progress." The proliferation of masculine type identities might make everyone feel more at home in their skin and with their individual identities- that's great- but it is not making sexism go away and I don't see it breaking down gender stereotypes at all. Having more choices of bread to buy at the grocery store now doesn't make capitalism a more improved economic system. It just means there are more types of bread to buy.

No, sexism is alive and well!

What I am amazed with is that feminism is what brought gender studies into being! I am so sick of the lack of historical knowledge and understanding of what a social movement is! feminism in its attempt to erradicate sexism, bring to light the negatives in sex-role stereotypes and fight the patriarchy, laid the foundation for transformation of the gender binary!


Ignorance continues as bliss! And thgere is no excuse for remaining ignorant here, as research into this is a click away! No one needs a degree to gain insight into the role of feminism in the development of gender enlightenment1

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

No, sexism is alive and well!

What I am amazed with is that feminism is what brought gender studies into being! I am so sick of the lack of historical knowledge and understanding of what a social movement is! feminism in its attempt to erradicate sexism, bring to light the negatives in sex-role stereotypes and fight the patriarchy, laid the foundation for transformation of the gender binary!


Ignorance continues as bliss! And thgere is no excuse for remaining ignorant here, as research into this is a click away! No one needs a degree to gain insight into the role of feminism in the development of gender enlightenment1

Yes, absolutely, AtLast. Many cultures acknowledge more than two genders, so I certainly believe in gender diversity or having more than two genders recognized.

I do agree with you that feminism has paved the way for many things, including gender studies and being able to critically examine the gender binary.

Sexism is rooted in limiting what woman can be. Sexism is about assigning gender stereotypes to women based on one's sex (female). Men then also are assigned stereotypes as well. It has consequences far beyond how we internally feel about ourselves or how we are acknowledged in terms of our gender, as we all know.

Certainly not everyone who is biologically female has to embrace woman as their gender or one of their genders, but unless we get to the roots of sexism and speak out against the gender stereotypes assigned to women, I don't see how any genders can be free. I also don't see having 5, 12, 86 or infinite genders as in itself fighing the binary or gender stereotypes in any meaningful way other than we all get to have our own personal id.

Appreciating gender diversity is certainly something I think we all want to do and strive to do better, but it's not freeing us from gender stereotypes or sexism or other societal inequalities, it just gives us more individual choice. I also don't think our individual choices will be honored unless we speak out and fight against what's really holding us back. If our society and queer communities remain as sexist, homophobic, transphobic, etc. as they are now, our individual ids will not be honored in any meaningful way.

[Beau]

Originally Posted by BullDog

To our allies, to me what is important, and what I believe is important to many butch women and female identified butches as well, is that we be recognized not just as masculine beings but as women and females as well.

Yes, Bully. I am not worried about anyone in real time or online "seeing" my masculinity; in fact, that's laughable to me. Yet, I think for others that may be a real issue that feeds some personal need to erase "woman" from "butch"-- even if that's regarding others. For me, and for many I know who ID as butch women, the "woman" part is what's lost, obscured, unacknowledged, or disrespected in real time and online. I don't fit anybody's notion of woman based on social constructs and definitions -- which absolutely always do come into play.

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Being, acknowledging, IDing as, having pride in and saying openly one is a female or women as well as butch does not mean one is stating they're less butch. Where people get that I don't know... except that I do.

Butches of all ID's come in all flavors, being Male or Female ID isn't an indicator of cooking skills, mechanic skills... musical preferences... musculature... facial characteristics... cuppa joe or latte... it just isn't meant to convey level of butch-ness.

It's not only dissing Female ID but it places stupid expectations on Male ID to be X Y Z... it really works against everyone.

To see female ID'd or butch women characterized as less masculine or not as butch really is ironic, irritating, and irksome considering my daily experience of walking through the world and being perceived as too masculine/butch. It would be funny if I didn't have to deal with the crap the world sends my way and then be confronted in queer spaces with the ridiculous attitudes and posturing surrounding the very idea of what butch is. While I have always looked to queer spaces for a place to find kinship and understanding, it's not all that fun to see myself defined by others in ways that aren't indicative of my reality.

Originally Posted by adorable

Maybe if everyone would stop comparing their insides to other people's outsides we could all accept people for who they say they are, ask for clarification and stop thinking in black & white.

Yes, this would be lovely. Hope to see it happen someday.

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Bottom line... this thread is about Female ID and Women ID related issues... and to be taken as an affront to any other ID is to totally misinterpreting the intention.

Met, misinterpretations are beyond our control, but intention does count, and yours is clear. Thank you for taking the space.

[mariamma]

Originally Posted by AtLast

No, sexism is alive and well!

What I am amazed with is that feminism is what brought gender studies into being! I am so sick of the lack of historical knowledge and understanding of what a social movement is! feminism in its attempt to erradicate sexism, bring to light the negatives in sex-role stereotypes and fight the patriarchy, laid the foundation for transformation of the gender binary!


Ignorance continues as bliss! And thgere is no excuse for remaining ignorant here, as research into this is a click away! No one needs a degree to gain insight into the role of feminism in the development of gender enlightenment1

My you're cute when you bring out the can of whoop-ass Yes, this is a re-argument of feminist theory. However not all have studied feminism 101. A

[Jett]

Originally Posted by adorable

I like you metro - I am coming to your thread. lol
I have tried to actually play peace maker between the female and male ID's in the past - which was promptly ignored....lol

Because I think it would be fabulous if we really could all get along - I will just throw this out there.

I was trying to explain to a male ID recently, who feels like he is a man inside TG - why female ID'd butches get so upset. What I told him I THINK it is - stems from female ID'd butches fighting their whole lives against a male centric society to be seen and accepted as masculine women. Only to have other people, who may look like them - dismiss that because that is not how they see themselves.

Ya'll have been having these arguments for a while and never seem to come to a resolution. As someone who comes from an outside place with no real leaning to one particular side what I see happen is almost always the same thing....
Doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result is insanity.

Here is my take:

The female ID's feel like they're not being heard and get defensive when male pronouns are the default. They see that as evidence of misogyny. They have fought their whole lives to be seen and taken seriously as masculine WOMEN. Then they question why male IDs need to switch from female pronouns at all. The mistake I think female IDs make is believing that male IDs use male pronouns to seem more butch then female IDs.

The male IDs feel like they're not being heard and get defensive when male pronouns as the default are questioned. They see that as evidence of people trying to take away their ID (especially on line.) They have fought their whole lives to be seen and taken seriously as MEN. Then they question why male IDs are trying to be excluded from the site. The mistake male IDs make is believing that female IDs are actually trying to exclude them.

What is so very sad to me is that as Butches regardless of pronoun have very similar real life experiences. The world sees you the same. The struggle is similar but because you come from such very different places the goal is different. How you FEEL inside is different. And because the reasons for what you do, how you dress and who you are are NOT the same - lines are drawn in the sand. Even though the argument always becomes about the power play of the internal female vs male centric society - I don't believe at all that is what is truly being played out in threads.

Yes, people do default to male pronouns. Misogyny is the "hatred" of women. I doubt very highly that anyone coming to a butch femme site holds a hatred of women. Varying levels of education, feminist history and communication savvy perhaps....but not hatred. Yet, it's a loaded word that is thrown around alot. In my opinion, it is abused online and used to settle scores.

Coming from a female centered place, male pronouns set off red flags. Coming from a male centered place, they make them feel included.

It's frustrating to watch the "collective" you attempt to argue endlessly about things when the two sides involved are having completely seperate converstations.

Maybe if everyone would stop comparing their insides to other people's outsides we could all accept people for who they say they are, ask for clarification and stop thinking in black & white.

This all is a consideration, and said something kind of similar in my post (two above yours). But...

... it doesn't change the fact that Female ID and Women ID Butches do have to deal with ID specific issues and need a space to do so. We face sexism and yes misogynistic remarks in these types forums... more so than (speaking for myself) in other areas in relation to the ID itself. Just as others do face isms and phobias due to their own unique ID and situations.

Defaults in pronouns are really just the tip of the iceburg, we face having our "butchness" or masculinity questioned due to the words female and women... we face remarks about lesbian (those of us who ID as one) meaning we like particular a sexual position, 69 to be exact... we face our personal issues being consided less in need of discussion or as an affront (did you go in the other masculine ID specific threads and post?)... etc. etc. We face sexism in our own community from all directions AND misogyny yes, because we've existed in a patriarchal world. Were not immune to it just because we're female, or masculine females or males, many women face internal misogyny and it can come out sideways or direct.

That said... most importantly... this thread isn't about "us and them", my first post pointed out that it comes from all directions... nor is this thread a continuation of the in-fighting (and I hope it doesn't degrade or get baited into that resulting in complete disintegration of space again)... it's not about "them", it's about us and how we deal and can try to cope with what we face specific to our ID.

I appreciate your post, and all due respect (I like you too) but it's a hell of a lot deeper than pronouns... or any one other specific ID, at least from my vantage point.

P.S. Just FYI, the problem is not only that the default is male... but that there is a default at all, perhaps these discussion can bring the crux of the issues like that some greater light (and I believe the defaults would fall more under sexism than misogyny, just to be clear).

P.S.S. I know how the defaults came about so no need to explain.

[AtLast]

[QUOTE=Metropolis;62901]
the problem is not only that the default is male... but that there is a default at all, perhaps these discussion can bring the crux of the issues like that some greater light (and I believe the defaults would fall more under sexism than misogyny, just to be clear).

QUOTE]

So much to be discussed here and these points (in red) I feel are very important.

Thank you for this space, Metro. I sure hope it remains a place for us to study and disect the issues your OP stated and not get side tracked with TG, etc. arguments. That is just not what this is all about! We need to own our own shit as well as tell our stories, give support, and hopefully leave an intelligent, coherent legacy.

Just hope our space to do this in is respected. We have a lot of work to do- without comparisons!

[Martina]

Originally Posted by adorable

I doubt very highly that anyone coming to a butch femme site holds a hatred of women. Varying levels of education, feminist history and communication savvy perhaps....but not hatred.

i wish that were true. It is not, unfortunately.

[Martina]

One thing i like about the real world -- the world where people are not so gender savvy -- is that there are a lot of butches blissfully ignorant of this whole argument. Butches who ID as butch and who are not fussed by all this. i love that. i like to recall that that is MOST butches in the U.S. i think there are a minority of them who would benefit from this extra knowledge, those who would find more of a home here than they do in their own various worlds. i hope that those people find an online or r/t community like ours that accepts them. But i am somewhat grateful that the vast majority of butches go through their lives blissfully ignorant of these problems, not made to question their "butchness," not pitted against other butches, not criticized by ill-informed and immature femmes. i am happy that they don't know we exist.

[Beau]

As a butch living in the real world, I believe very few, if any, butches exist who aren't painfully aware of the issues surrounding being butch - regardless of ID. I think all of us, as butches who live in a heterosexual/patriarchal society, have endured much questioning of our "butchness" from both the straight world and within gay/lesbian circles. I think we've been pitted against each other in many ways real time, and we've been criticized from all sides.

This is nothing new. It's just worse that it's occurring in a space we share in an attempt to find community with one another.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by beau4afemme

As a butch living in the real world, I believe very few, if any, butches exist who aren't painfully aware of the issues surrounding being butch - regardless of ID. I think all of us, as butches who live in a heterosexual/patriarchal society, have endured much questioning of our "butchness" from both the straight world and within gay/lesbian circles. I think we've been pitted against each other in many ways real time, and we've been criticized from all sides.

This is nothing new. It's just worse that it's occurring in a space we share in an attempt to find community with one another.

i think all butches are aware of sexism and homophobia as it affects them on a daily basis. Are they aware of the many gender identities that exist and the biases common online and in some urban communities? No. Most are not. Whatever else may be going on in their lives, for better or worse, most are not.

[Jett]

Originally Posted by Martina

One thing i like about the real world -- the world where people are not so gender savvy -- is that there are a lot of butches blissfully ignorant of this whole argument. Butches who ID as butch and who are not fussed by all this. i love that. i like to recall that that is MOST butches in the U.S. i think there are a minority of them who would benefit from this extra knowledge, those who would find more of a home here than they do in their own various worlds. i hope that those people find an online or r/t community like ours that accepts them. But i am somewhat grateful that the vast majority of butches go through their lives blissfully ignorant of these problems, not made to question their "butchness," not pitted against other butches, not criticized by ill-informed and immature femmes. i am happy that they don't know we exist.

I really hear what you've said Martina, it's something that's bothered me for a lonnnng ass time, and the way you put it kind of pinpointed something about it for me (and it speaks to some of what Beau has said as well).

I value this community and my friends here very much... but I wish I never knew of some of the ID'd politics that exist here, "ignorance is bliss" is truth in this arena.

Before I came to online B-F forums five+ years ago... I was just "butch" (Stone but it's beside the point), it was good enough, no need to say anymore. My butchness was sure as hell never questioned just because I was a female. Sometimes now I feel like I've allowed myself to get caught up in a trap (feeling caged) of having to "ID" and thus ending up in the position then of defending "it"... rather than just being... I don't like it. I'm a butch and female it's just what it is and always has been.

It's like... so- the- fuck- what?

The "Female ID'd" always felt more a response to the politics here more than expressing anything specific or different about myself as a butch. It's always felt redundant (for me like wet identified water) and it feels counter productive because (to me) it's reinforcing the politics. I don't think my butchness has to be qualified or categorized, I don't like doing it, I don't live life like a "Female ID'd Butch"... but rather a "Butch" identified female. If that makes sense to anyone but me.

"Just butch" and it felt good yep (you reminded me of that thank you)... I don't like the ID/labels politics game. I don't have to play. I'm not stepping down from the "politics" of being a "Strong Female and/or Women Butch in a Patriarchal World", just stepping away from the "ID'd" part... and the feeling pressured to stick a gender type identifier on my head and be commended or ridiculed over it (me). And I'm stepping up (back) to where I think I need to be to be happy as a butch and a female.

From here on out I identify as not identifying, just a Butch and female.

Am I being a bad ally to my fellow women? I don't think so... I'm not in any way renouncing being a female... just dropping a gender/sex based ID system I think is flawed and I believe counter productive for myself and many butches.

It works for some just not for me... anymore.

Metropolis
*I'll probably end up with an empty dance card but what the hay*

[Beau]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Before I came to online B-F forums five+ years ago... I was just "butch" (Stone but it's beside the point), it was good enough, no need to say anymore. My butchness was sure as hell never questioned just because I was a female. Sometimes now I feel like I've allowed myself to get caught up in a trap (feeling caged) of having to "ID" and thus ending up in the position then of defending "it"... rather than just being... I don't like it. I'm a butch and female it's just what it is and always has been.

It's like... so- the- fuck- what?

The "Female ID'd" always felt more a response to the politics here more than expressing anything specific or different about myself as a butch. It's always felt redundant (for me like wet identified water) and it feels counter productive because (to me) it's reinforcing the politics. I don't think my butchness has to be qualified or categorized, I don't like doing it, I don't live life like a "Female ID'd Butch"... but rather a "Butch" identified female. If that makes sense to anyone but me.

Of course it makes sense -- "butch" identified female -- so, no worries there. That said, it would be lovely if we could all be "just butch", but that's sort of the point isn't it? In this arena, there are categories and categories within categories, and so on. And this arena is where we're all posting.

Originally Posted by Metropolis

"Just butch" and it felt good yep (you reminded me of that thank you)... I don't like the ID/labels politics game. I don't have to play. I'm not stepping down from the "politics" of being a "Strong Female and/or Women Butch in a Patriarchal World", just stepping away from the "ID'd" part... and the feeling pressured to stick a gender type identifier on my head and be commended or ridiculed over it (me). And I'm stepping up (back) to where I think I need to be to be happy as a butch and a female.

From here on out I identify as not identifying, just a Butch and female.

Am I being a bad ally to my fellow women? I don't think so... I'm not in any way renouncing being a female... just dropping a gender/sex based ID system I think is flawed and I believe counter productive for myself and many butches.

It works for some just not for me... anymore.

Metropolis

You're an ally to all who know you, Met. However, though the system is flawed, it seems to matter in a world that now encompasses the categories aforementioned. And yes, hell yes, it is counterproductive for many of us, myself included. But, I have concerns, Met. I worry that if there is an abdication of claiming female/woman proudly, it sends the wrong message to those who've yet to discover or evolve into an identity that is best for them. If they don't see some of us (not saying you have to) stand up and proclaim, I'm a woman, and it's okay to be a big, badass butch and be a woman - even if that doesn't match what society (any society) defines as woman - then they may not view it as being perceived as accepted or admired. It seems to play into the notion of male = superior and female = doesn't matter.

:: shrug :: I'm not sure what the answer is then for those of us who'd love to be viewed as "just butch" among our own.

Originally Posted by Metropolis

*I'll probably end up with an empty dance card but what the hay*

Now, you know that'll never be true, you heartthrob.