The Strong Butch Female/Woman in a Patriarchal World

Jett · 03-08-2010, 11:49 AM

One thing I'd like to see talked about, and I think it's a huge problem... is the equating of Female ID and Women ID to soft or less masculine.

Frankly, honestly... truly...

... it's just plain sexist (and perhaps misogynistic where it's not being ignorant).

Being, acknowledging, IDing as, having pride in and saying openly one is a female or women as well as butch does not mean one is stating they're less butch. Where people get that I don't know... except that I do.

Butches of all ID's come in all flavors, being Male or Female ID isn't an indicator of cooking skills, mechanic skills... musical preferences... musculature... facial characteristics... cuppa joe or latte... it just isn't meant to convey level of butch-ness.

It's not only dissing Female ID but it places stupid expectations on Male ID to be X Y Z... it really works against everyone.

Luckydwg07 · 03-10-2010, 08:24 PM

"convey level of butchiness"
This is true to me....
Its a reason why I spend more time with my gay friends (men) and queens because we talk, joke & support each other's choices in life.
Its wonderful that we have this avenue to discuss but at the end of the day in my world I don't find any kinship with the butches I know but for 1
I find more freindship here online ...hell maybe its because I've been flying solo for so long? I'm a very appraochable person
I feel a competative nature everytime I am in a group of butchess its not fun it's more of a test! I careless what people think I'm made of and in the same breath wish for more understanding.

Thankyou for this thread

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metropolis

One thing I'd like to see talked about, and I think it's a huge problem... is the equating of Female ID and Women ID to soft or less masculine.

Frankly, honestly... truly...

... it's just plain sexist (and perhaps misogynistic where it's not being ignorant).

Being, acknowledging, IDing as, having pride in and saying openly one is a female or women as well as butch does not mean one is stating they're less butch. Where people get that I don't know... except that I do.

Butches of all ID's come in all flavors, being Male or Female ID isn't an indicator of cooking skills, mechanic skills... musical preferences... musculature... facial characteristics... cuppa joe or latte... it just isn't meant to convey level of butch-ness.

It's not only dissing Female ID but it places stupid expectations on Male ID to be X Y Z... it really works against everyone.

Kobi · 03-10-2010, 09:21 PM

This is a fascinating thread on a subject that has been on my mind a lot lately. Whem, I first came out, albeit shortly after The Last Supper, identity was relatively simple. Aside from the individual identifiers, the "lesbian" community was about women who were sexually and emotionally attracted to other women.

Today, I see a very strong masculine presence in the community in various forms. It is disconcerting. I talk to way to many young lesbians who are not only confused about their sexual orientation but their gender preference as well.

Maybe it is expanding the possibilities, but I liked it better when life was simplier.

Cyclopea · 03-10-2010, 09:27 PM

Proud Butch Woman here. Represent!
Enjoying the thread- thanks to all who have posted.

Jett · 03-10-2010, 09:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kobi

This is a fascinating thread on a subject that has been on my mind a lot lately. Whem, I first came out, albeit shortly after The Last Supper, identity was relatively simple. Aside from the individual identifiers, the "lesbian" community was about women who were sexually and emotionally attracted to other women.

Today, I see a very strong masculine presence in the community in various forms. It is disconcerting. I talk to way to many young lesbians who are not only confused about their sexual orientation but their gender preference as well.

Maybe it is expanding the possibilities, but I liked it better when life was simplier.

Hey Kobi (and a hey to Luckdwg07

) *

I'm wondering what's "disconcerting" to you about "masculine presence" in our communities. I would certainly hope my masculinity wouldn't be disconcerting to anyone, especially in LBGQT communities.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you.. but I'm slightly perplexed with that statement... especially in a Butch Femme forum?

Thanx in advance for any explanation...

Metro

*And a big hey to Cyclopea for representin'
Free ===>

*s*
.
.

Cyclopea · 03-10-2010, 10:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metropolis

*And a big hey to Cyclopea for representin'
Free ===>

*s*
.
.

I thought this

was a video game controller, lol. But toasters are good too- thanks Met!

Kobi · 03-10-2010, 11:19 PM

"I'm wondering what's "disconcerting" to you about "masculine presence" in our communities. I would certainly hope my masculinity wouldn't be disconcerting to anyone, especially in LBGQT communities."

Hi Metro

By "masculine presence" , and I will apologize in advance to anyone I might inadvertently offend, I was referring to lesbians who disown their femaleness.

Jett · 03-11-2010, 12:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kobi

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metropolis

"I'm wondering what's "disconcerting" to you about "masculine presence" in our communities. I would certainly hope my masculinity wouldn't be disconcerting to anyone, especially in LBGQT communities."

Hi Metro

By "masculine presence" , and I will apologize in advance to anyone I might inadvertently offend, I was referring to lesbians who disown their femaleness.

Ok, I understand, but will say I don't find that disconcerting at all... some peeps just need to be themselves, and if they aren't female then the simply aren't female.

I don't think that should be disconcerting to someone it doesn't really have two hoots to do with anyhow, but it's your prerogative, I just don't agree.

There's room for all of us.

Metro

Kobi · 03-11-2010, 12:34 AM

"Ok, I understand, but will say I don't find that disconcerting at all... some peeps just need to be themselves, and if they aren't female then the simply aren't female.

I don't think that should be disconcerting to someone it doesn't really have two hoots to do with anyhow, but it's your prerogative, I just don't agree."

Metro,

The nice thing about the world is we all are entitled to our opinions. And we nicely agree to disagree.

Male energy is much different from female energy. And, there is a distinct difference in interactions. But thats just my opinion.

Luckydwg07 · 03-11-2010, 11:27 AM

I guess you could say I'm disconcerting to others in our community. I am strong & masculine in my womanly frame..I am totally butch I've had many descriptions pinned to my chest. I do enjoy the company of all. What they want to be is up to them. When people feel good about who they are one can tell & enjoy knowing them.
Maybe some are not ok with their place in life & so they are upset with me. I can't figure it out. I just stay on the fringe with my door open.
hope I didn't muddy the waters more!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Metropolis

Hey Kobi (and a hey to Luckdwg07

) *

I'm wondering what's "disconcerting" to you about "masculine presence" in our communities. I would certainly hope my masculinity wouldn't be disconcerting to anyone, especially in LBGQT communities.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you.. but I'm slightly perplexed with that statement... especially in a Butch Femme forum?

Thanx in advance for any explanation...

Metro

*And a big hey to Cyclopea for representin'
Free ===>

*s*
.
.

Allison W · 03-11-2010, 10:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kobi

This is a fascinating thread on a subject that has been on my mind a lot lately. Whem, I first came out, albeit shortly after The Last Supper, identity was relatively simple. Aside from the individual identifiers, the "lesbian" community was about women who were sexually and emotionally attracted to other women.

Today, I see a very strong masculine presence in the community in various forms. It is disconcerting. I talk to way to many young lesbians who are not only confused about their sexual orientation but their gender preference as well.

Maybe it is expanding the possibilities, but I liked it better when life was simplier.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kobi

"I'm wondering what's "disconcerting" to you about "masculine presence" in our communities. I would certainly hope my masculinity wouldn't be disconcerting to anyone, especially in LBGQT communities."

Hi Metro

By "masculine presence" , and I will apologize in advance to anyone I might inadvertently offend, I was referring to lesbians who disown their femaleness.

This compelled me to de-lurk. I have to ask--when you say that ("lesbians who disown their femaleness"), are you talking about male-ID'd butches, transmen, or something else entirely?

~~~

Now that I'm here, though, I'd like to thank Metropolis for starting this thread. Over on the dash site, which I still do visit, I do often find that male ID'd butches and transmen are frequently regarded as the default (a particularly striking example perhaps being the name of the butch bonding forum--Butch Bruthas? No Butch Sistahs?), with butch women frequently thought of afterward, if at all. Which isn't to say I'm against acceptance of male-ID'd butches and transmen, but I don't accept the marginalization of butch women--in the straight world, let alone their own communities. My moral support isn't worth much, but suffice it to say if there's anything I can do to support you in a more useful fashion, I'd be happy to.

Luckydwg07 · 03-12-2010, 08:55 AM

I will say that out in public I feel confident. I do have people stare/examine me but I look at them and give a smile & a hello. 99% of the time I get a hello back. I am part of society & the human race no doubt.

Words · 03-13-2010, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kobi

Maybe it is expanding the possibilities, but I liked it better when life was simplier.

Simpler for whom?

For you, perhaps. But not for those who had the audacity to be 'other'.

Jett · 03-13-2010, 06:17 PM

What feels safe is my lumping myself into a space I kind of can slide by in... what feels less safe is a middle ground between two huge accepted gender designations.

"Other"... no matter where I go there I am facing it including here. Though I keep grasping at those straws, trying to place myself into "one or the other" (binary- woman or man) and once again when I do find myself uncomfortably in a position of just not quite belonging. There's only one place I had that I felt I could breath... and that was in my while back acknowledgment of "The Other Genders".

A couple months ago I'm looking at an old photo of myself (teenage for retroweek) and it triggered a strong desire to find the contentedness in her eyes, and I thought I found it in her being happy in her being "her", BUT totally missed that it's just her being ignorant (and blissful in that ignorance) to the implications of who s/he is/was and what it would mean in the world.

Then I get a bigger damn wake up, I wrote this thread for female or women butches... and hit submit, and the itchiness began. The more I try to speak from that position... the more itchy I get, the more that it's not right feeling rises up and the more I realize to I need to be forthright with myself and here. My body is female yes and will always be and I'm happy with that (though it tends to random masculine traits it's no doubt on the more female on the bits side)... but my mind is quite "other", it is very pangender, or androgyne, male and female by birth or by lived life... what ever it is what it is.

My self acceptance is a process in which denial has played too large a part and needs to be gotten over... I really want to just be who I am and it starts with owning it. I was going to re-write this and post it tomorrow but what the hell...

Metropolis
*still a female but perhaps not in the same sense this thread has and may follow*
-------------------------------------------------
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be?

AtLast · 03-13-2010, 11:05 PM

Other, yes, other. For me, other is the mix of female & male .... a merging and this feels right to me. Yet, it does not feel like what we have traditionally conceived via the gender binary. It is something other and needs no modification. Nuturance, yes, change, no. But, this is the other that fits for me, not everyone. This is how it has always been for me.

I just want to have a respected place in which I am seen for my character, not my gender. And not feel that I have to continually fight for recognition as the female I am. Nor do I want to be a more masculine woman that I am or put on false male bravado to be accepted as butch. This is out of character for me.

What I am is just a butch and happy with this.

BullDog · 03-14-2010, 02:59 PM

I don't believe that the gender binary that we all seem to complain about is really the major problem. Sure more than two genders do exist and should be recognized. However, it's the stereotypes and limitations placed on the gender roles that are recognized (man and woman) that are what is most damaging. Sexism is the primary cause of this. If there were no limitations or stereotypes placed on women, than many more females would not find woman to be problematic as their gender or part of their gender. Some still would.

However, having a gazillion gender identities doesn't get us any freer than we were before. Sexism is alive and well in queer culture, as much as it ever has been. The fact that lesbian, butch femme and queer communities can't seem to come to grips with the fact that women can fully embrace their masculinity and still be fully female and fully woman is a symptom of this.

I fully embrace woman as I do butch. It's empowering to me because I have a right to fully embrace woman as much as I do butch and masculinity. It's important for me to stand with other women- whether butch, femme, lesbian, queer or straight.

I also don't think it's easier to embrace woman than Other, nor do I think it plays into the binary.

mariamma · 08-04-2012, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jett

Butches of all ID's come in all flavors, being Male or Female ID isn't an indicator of cooking skills, mechanic skills... musical preferences... musculature... facial characteristics... cuppa joe or latte... it just isn't meant to convey level of butch-ness.

It's not only dissing Female ID but it places stupid expectations on Male ID to be X Y Z... it really works against everyone.

hi to everyone reading this. I'm responding to something from 2 years ago but I believe it's salient still. Maybe this has been addressed already... the twin-souled or maybe not?
Historically, there have been women who are also like men and the men who are also like women. They are known in Native American tradition as twin spirited or twin-souled and traditionally are the spiritual leaders of the People since they are able to speak for both genders and can often commune with the Creator/Source. This is old Amazonian tradition. There have been Amazon women and transgendered since the dawn of time.
The links I posted did not mention that in 2000 years ago, Lybia was considered an Amazonian land and Lybia was known as Africa. Transgendered and genderqueer have historically been known as Shaman and the spiritual leaders of the People.
So how does a genderqueer (both) male-id or female id cope???? Bio-dudes can at times look at you and ponder, "Do I fuck or fight h/er?" and male ID or female ID can ignore the beautiful synergy that is the twinned-spirited. How does one express his and/or her soul? And how does one focus and find love in the chaos of our world?

girl_dee · 08-04-2012, 10:21 PM

i'd like to add that i am totally in love with how my butch partner embraces butch, woman and fierce in the world. Some of her town interactions (Firefighting for example) are male dominated and she rises above the cloud of patriarchal BS every time.

Her whole disposition is a hot and confident butch woman swagger.

03-08-2010, 11:49 AM	#1
Jett Member How Do You Identify?: Hardcore bullheaded grown-ass Tomboy Preferred Pronoun?: She Relationship Status: she loves my shaggy hair Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: The backroom of a night cafe plotting world domination Posts: 1,028 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 2,054 Thanked 3,299 Times in 568 Posts Rep Power: 21474853	One thing I'd like to see talked about, and I think it's a huge problem... is the equating of Female ID and Women ID to soft or less masculine. Frankly, honestly... truly... ... it's just plain sexist (and perhaps misogynistic where it's not being ignorant). Being, acknowledging, IDing as, having pride in and saying openly one is a female or women as well as butch does not mean one is stating they're less butch. Where people get that I don't know... except that I do. Butches of all ID's come in all flavors, being Male or Female ID isn't an indicator of cooking skills, mechanic skills... musical preferences... musculature... facial characteristics... cuppa joe or latte... it just isn't meant to convey level of butch-ness. It's not only dissing Female ID but it places stupid expectations on Male ID to be X Y Z... it really works against everyone. __________________ .......... In the depth of winter I finally learned that there was in me an invincible summer. ~Albert Camus

03-10-2010, 09:21 PM	#3
Kobi Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Biological female. Lesbian. Relationship Status: Happy Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Hanging out in the Atlantic. Posts: 9,234 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 9,840 Thanked 34,636 Times in 7,642 Posts Rep Power: 21474861	This is a fascinating thread on a subject that has been on my mind a lot lately. Whem, I first came out, albeit shortly after The Last Supper, identity was relatively simple. Aside from the individual identifiers, the "lesbian" community was about women who were sexually and emotionally attracted to other women. Today, I see a very strong masculine presence in the community in various forms. It is disconcerting. I talk to way to many young lesbians who are not only confused about their sexual orientation but their gender preference as well. Maybe it is expanding the possibilities, but I liked it better when life was simplier. __________________

03-10-2010, 09:27 PM	#4
Cyclopea Member How Do You Identify?: Butch Lesbian Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Exit Zero Posts: 1,267 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 1,694 Thanked 1,615 Times in 632 Posts Rep Power: 226200	Shout Out Proud Butch Woman here. Represent! Enjoying the thread- thanks to all who have posted. __________________ http://forum.axishistory.com/images/...arious/eye.jpg

03-10-2010, 11:19 PM	#7
Kobi Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Biological female. Lesbian. Relationship Status: Happy Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Hanging out in the Atlantic. Posts: 9,234 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 9,840 Thanked 34,636 Times in 7,642 Posts Rep Power: 21474861	"I'm wondering what's "disconcerting" to you about "masculine presence" in our communities. I would certainly hope my masculinity wouldn't be disconcerting to anyone, especially in LBGQT communities." Hi Metro By "masculine presence" , and I will apologize in advance to anyone I might inadvertently offend, I was referring to lesbians who disown their femaleness. __________________

03-11-2010, 12:34 AM	#9
Kobi Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Biological female. Lesbian. Relationship Status: Happy Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Hanging out in the Atlantic. Posts: 9,234 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 9,840 Thanked 34,636 Times in 7,642 Posts Rep Power: 21474861	"Ok, I understand, but will say I don't find that disconcerting at all... some peeps just need to be themselves, and if they aren't female then the simply aren't female. I don't think that should be disconcerting to someone it doesn't really have two hoots to do with anyhow, but it's your prerogative, I just don't agree." Metro, The nice thing about the world is we all are entitled to our opinions. And we nicely agree to disagree. Male energy is much different from female energy. And, there is a distinct difference in interactions. But thats just my opinion. __________________

03-12-2010, 08:55 AM	#12
Luckydwg07 Member How Do You Identify?: Yes Ma'am! Butchiness- hard shell candy with a soft center Relationship Status: I've bee found-Life has new meaning to me Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: yankee in southern waters Posts: 352 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 685 Thanked 312 Times in 136 Posts Rep Power: 2730229	so far so good I will say that out in public I feel confident. I do have people stare/examine me but I look at them and give a smile & a hello. 99% of the time I get a hello back. I am part of society & the human race no doubt.

03-13-2010, 06:17 PM	#14
Jett Member How Do You Identify?: Hardcore bullheaded grown-ass Tomboy Preferred Pronoun?: She Relationship Status: she loves my shaggy hair Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: The backroom of a night cafe plotting world domination Posts: 1,028 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 2,054 Thanked 3,299 Times in 568 Posts Rep Power: 21474853	What feels safe is my lumping myself into a space I kind of can slide by in... what feels less safe is a middle ground between two huge accepted gender designations. "Other"... no matter where I go there I am facing it including here. Though I keep grasping at those straws, trying to place myself into "one or the other" (binary- woman or man) and once again when I do find myself uncomfortably in a position of just not quite belonging. There's only one place I had that I felt I could breath... and that was in my while back acknowledgment of "The Other Genders". A couple months ago I'm looking at an old photo of myself (teenage for retroweek) and it triggered a strong desire to find the contentedness in her eyes, and I thought I found it in her being happy in her being "her", BUT totally missed that it's just her being ignorant (and blissful in that ignorance) to the implications of who s/he is/was and what it would mean in the world. Then I get a bigger damn wake up, I wrote this thread for female or women butches... and hit submit, and the itchiness began. The more I try to speak from that position... the more itchy I get, the more that it's not right feeling rises up and the more I realize to I need to be forthright with myself and here. My body is female yes and will always be and I'm happy with that (though it tends to random masculine traits it's no doubt on the more female on the bits side)... but my mind is quite "other", it is very pangender, or androgyne, male and female by birth or by lived life... what ever it is what it is. My self acceptance is a process in which denial has played too large a part and needs to be gotten over... I really want to just be who I am and it starts with owning it. I was going to re-write this and post it tomorrow but what the hell... Metropolis still a female but perhaps not in the same sense this thread has and may follow ------------------------------------------------- Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure. It is our light, not our darkness that most frightens us. We ask ourselves, Who am I to be brilliant, gorgeous, talented, fabulous? Actually, who are you not to be? __________________ .......... In the depth of winter I finally learned that there was in me an invincible summer. ~Albert Camus

03-13-2010, 11:05 PM	#15
AtLast Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Woman Preferred Pronoun?: HER - SHE Relationship Status: Relating Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: CA & AZ I'm a Snowbird Posts: 5,408 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 11,826 Thanked 10,827 Times in 3,199 Posts Rep Power: 21474857	Other, yes, other. For me, other is the mix of female & male .... a merging and this feels right to me. Yet, it does not feel like what we have traditionally conceived via the gender binary. It is something other and needs no modification. Nuturance, yes, change, no. But, this is the other that fits for me, not everyone. This is how it has always been for me. I just want to have a respected place in which I am seen for my character, not my gender. And not feel that I have to continually fight for recognition as the female I am. Nor do I want to be a more masculine woman that I am or put on false male bravado to be accepted as butch. This is out of character for me. What I am is just a butch and happy with this. Last edited by AtLast; 03-13-2010 at 11:06 PM. Reason: goofed

03-14-2010, 02:59 PM	#16
BullDog Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: Dominant Stone Butch Daddy Preferred Pronoun?: She Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: In A Healing Place Posts: 5,371 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 18,160 Thanked 22,666 Times in 4,464 Posts Rep Power: 21474856	I don't believe that the gender binary that we all seem to complain about is really the major problem. Sure more than two genders do exist and should be recognized. However, it's the stereotypes and limitations placed on the gender roles that are recognized (man and woman) that are what is most damaging. Sexism is the primary cause of this. If there were no limitations or stereotypes placed on women, than many more females would not find woman to be problematic as their gender or part of their gender. Some still would. However, having a gazillion gender identities doesn't get us any freer than we were before. Sexism is alive and well in queer culture, as much as it ever has been. The fact that lesbian, butch femme and queer communities can't seem to come to grips with the fact that women can fully embrace their masculinity and still be fully female and fully woman is a symptom of this. I fully embrace woman as I do butch. It's empowering to me because I have a right to fully embrace woman as much as I do butch and masculinity. It's important for me to stand with other women- whether butch, femme, lesbian, queer or straight. I also don't think it's easier to embrace woman than Other, nor do I think it plays into the binary. __________________ Love consists in this, that two solitudes protect and touch and greet each other. - Rainer Maria Rilke

08-04-2012, 10:21 PM	#18
girl_dee Practically Lives Here How Do You Identify?: Femme Preferred Pronoun?: dee Relationship Status: Hitched up Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Livin’ the Dream Posts: 24,079 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 30,560 Thanked 54,833 Times in 13,908 Posts Rep Power: 21474873	i'd like to add that i am totally in love with how my butch partner embraces butch, woman and fierce in the world. Some of her town interactions (Firefighting for example) are male dominated and she rises above the cloud of patriarchal BS every time. Her whole disposition is a hot and confident butch woman swagger.