Butch as an umbrella of presentations

[mariamma]

Originally Posted by Fanbutch

To be honest, I'm mostly asking because I feel like a butch, but I worry others would not define me that way. I love using the word "butch" to describe my gender as well as sexuality, but I have several characteristics that would, if going by the standard definition, contradict this identity. For example, I love bright colours and often wear them, am a total mush for rom coms, and tend to giggle and jump around when excited (which is frequently). But I also bind, and feel uncomfortable when my appearance is too feminine.
If butch is an umbrella term, I'd fall under it. But if it's more solid and unalterable, I probably wouldn't.

Never let others define you. It doesn't feel good. You may be twin-souled. Meaning you may express estrogen and testosterone equally (or close to equally). It's also called twin-spirited if you google it.

I am a femme because of how I am and present around butch women. Men do not have this effect on me. Women do not have this effect on me. Women that express more T than me do. And babies. Babies and butches make me wax femme.

[Toughy]

Originally Posted by mariamma

Never let others define you. It doesn't feel good. You may be twin-souled. Meaning you may express estrogen and testosterone equally (or close to equally). It's also called twin-spirited if you google it.

I am a femme because of how I am and present around butch women. Men do not have this effect on me. Women do not have this effect on me. Women that express more T than me do. And babies. Babies and butches make me wax femme.

Ok................shaking my head..........

People.......individuals ARE NOT HORMONES! Nor is there ANY scientific basis for you to draw that conclusion.

Femme is NOT defined by attraction to butch women or babies. And you just lumped sexual attraction in with babies........ick. But I will let the femmes have at you over that little statement.

Twin-spirited sounds a whole lot like two-spirit which is an Indian (aboriginal/indigenous) concept found in many tribes in North America and across the world. 'Scientists' have long spent hours trying to define concepts in western terms that have NO place in western thought. I'm sure the two-spirit folks will appreciate you defining them by western pharmacology and thought.....but then there is nothing new about that, as it's been going on in the Americas for at least 400 years. Damn white people sure do like to appropriate non-western, non-white culture..........

[princessbelle]

Originally Posted by mariamma

Never let others define you. It doesn't feel good. You may be twin-souled. Meaning you may express estrogen and testosterone equally (or close to equally). It also called twin-spirited if you google it.

I am a femme because of how I am and present around butch women. Men do not have this effect on me. Women do not have this effect on me. Women that express more T than me do. And babies. Babies and butches make me wax femme.

I cringe really for quoting you because you can't prove or disprove a real negative. Even though cis men and women do have testosterone and estrogen in their bodies, it ebbs and flows and is not a constant.

So, saying that femmes or butches harvest or maintain a constant of more than one or the other is not exactly true.

I am a femme because i was born that way. Has nothing to do with who i am around cis men or butch women or FTMs ect.

In other words....I am femme and if i fall in the woods, alone, i will still be a femme.

No one and no gender and certainly not one steady or unsteady hormone determines who i am.

I just am.

[mariamma]

Originally Posted by princessbelle

I cringe really for quoting you because you can't prove or disprove a real negative. Even though cis men and women do have testosterone and estrogen in their bodies, it ebbs and flows and is not a constant.

So, saying that femmes harvest or maintain a constant of more than one or the other is not exactly true.

I am a femme because i was born that way. Has nothing to do with who i am around cis men or butch women or FTMs ect.

In other words....I am femme and if i fall in the woods, alone, i will still be a femme.

No one and no gender and certainly not one steady or unsteady hormone determines who i am.

I just am.

Don't let me define you. It doesn't feel good.

[girl_dee]

please don't let google define who you are either.

[princessbelle]

Originally Posted by mariamma

Don't let me define you. It doesn't feel good.

You don't define me. Neither does how much estrogen, or other hormone i have in my body at any given time or lack thereof.

[Daywalker]

It's a self Identifier, it's an energy, it's not a definition.

And.

It's a Gender Identity, not always indicative of ones Sexual Identity.
Example ~ no one makes love 'like' a Butch, they make love 'as' a Butch.



Just like any other 'group' folks choose to Identify with, no one person
can be the epitome of that group. That's the beauty of it that
folks forget to stand proud in appreciation of...our Diversity
as folks who include Butch in our list of Identities.

[mariamma]

Originally Posted by Toughy

Ok................shaking my head..........

People.......individuals ARE NOT HORMONES! Nor is there ANY scientific basis for you to draw that conclusion.

Femme is NOT defined by attraction to butch women or babies. And you just lumped sexual attraction in with babies........ick. But I will let the femmes have at you over that little statement.

Twin-spirited sounds a whole lot like two-spirit which is an Indian (aboriginal/indigenous) concept found in many tribes in North America and across the world. 'Scientists' have long spent hours trying to define concepts in western terms that have NO place in western thought. I'm sure the two-spirit folks will appreciate you defining them by western pharmacology and thought.....but then there is nothing new about that, as it's been going on in the Americas for at least 400 years. Damn white people sure do like to appropriate non-western, non-white culture..........

Don't let me define you. And don't define me as white. I'm mixed (English and African American). I know many are upset by my modern concepts. I'm sorry about that. I do accept these notions since I see them everywhere. You can believe or not believe as you see fit.

This is not the place to argue about my beliefs. This is the place to discuss whether or not butch is an umbrella term. If you want to fight with me about my beliefs, please do so in a different thread. Maybe y'all should start a "Why I can't stand someone pontificating" thread? Or "Why I hate pompous people" thread. That might get me to shut up. But this thread is about butch as an umbrella presentation. I do not think it would be respecting Fanbutch and hys query to have this thread change into something else.

[macele]

In other words....I am femme and if i fall in the woods, alone, i will still be a femme. -- princessbelle


i have to add this to my quote collection. that's a first time i've heard that. made me laugh. good laughing. thanks.

[CherylNYC]

Originally Posted by mariamma

Don't let me define you. And don't define me as white. I'm mixed (English and African American). I know many are upset by my modern concepts. I'm sorry about that. I do accept these notions since I see them everywhere. You can believe or not believe as you see fit.

This is not the place to argue about my beliefs. This is the place to discuss whether or not butch is an umbrella term. If you want to fight with me about my beliefs, please do so in a different thread. Maybe y'all should start a "Why I can't stand someone pontificating" thread? Or "Why I hate pompous people" thread. That might get me to shut up. But this thread is about butch as an umbrella presentation. I do not think it would be respecting Fanbutch and hys query to have this thread change into something else.

@mariamma- First of all, Fanbutch has requested female pronouns. Second, I wouldn't call your concepts modern in any way. In fact, pontificating about the alleged correlation beween estrogen and femmeness, and testosterone and butchness, is backwards enough to be really offensive. I try not to read your posts on this subject, but they've become harder and harder to avoid.

While I've never been tested, it's clear to anyone with eyes that my testosterone levels are on the high end of the female scale. That has NOTHING to do with me being femme. Unless a person is intersex or has adrenal hyperplasia there is NO way to correlate hormone levels with butchness or femmeness. Your simplistic outlook is kind of horrifying, and certainly insulting. Please stop.

[Parker]

Originally Posted by mariamma

I do not think it would be respecting Fanbutch and hys query to have this thread change into something else.

.... or her.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by mariamma

Never let others define you. It doesn't feel good. You may be twin-souled. Meaning you may express estrogen and testosterone equally (or close to equally). It's also called twin-spirited if you google it.

I am a femme because of how I am and present around butch women. Men do not have this effect on me. Women do not have this effect on me. Women that express more T than me do. And babies. Babies and butches make me wax femme.

Actually, studies have shown that some biological females that define as male have higher levels of testosterone (than the general female population), but this does NOT hold true for biological females who define as female who have same sex relationships. I am assuming the people that you are calling butch women define as female.

EDIT: Just read Cheryl's post...agreed

[Martina]

Welcome to the site, Fanbutch.

[Parker]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

Many years ago, when the world was young, a crusty old butch gave me some great advice which was this: 'butch is a label, wear the label don't let the label wear you'. I took that to mean that I shouldn't ever let myself be constrained by the idea that I can't do 'X' because 'butches don't do X'. The things I do, alpha geek that I am, are butch because *I* am doing them. That means that if I get giddy as a schoolgirl because Steven Pinker or David Sloan Wilson have just released new books, so be it I'm still a butch getting excited because two of her favorite authors have new work out. If it means getting into high-nerd happiness because I just saw something interesting in my telescope or the vet let me go to the backroom to look at the sample they took from my dog, then butches do that as well.

If you wear bright colors then butches wear bright colors because you identify as a butch and do so. While there's a spectrum of butch such that in most circles, if a group of people 'in the life' were to walk into a room and someone said "woo! look at that butch over there!" everyone would probably look in the same direction there is a point, ineffable as it might be, where people wouldn't look at the woman wearing a dress with her hair coiffed like she'd just stepped off a 1940s film noir set. What that point is, I don't know but as a practical matter it exists because we all have some idea of what the other person means when they use the word 'butch'.

You are butch because you identify yourself as a butch. The things you do are butch because you are doing them. Butch is just a label, wear the label proudly, don't let the label wear you.

Cheers
Aj

Originally Posted by Toughy

this poor kid picked the wrong day to start a thread like this........laughin...

Aj said it very well with this statement:



Who ever said bright colors are not worn by butch folk....looking in my closet....mmmmm.........only 2 white dress shirts and a whole bunch of dress shirts of many different colors and probably 40 ties to match all those colors.....

I giggle. I cry. I laugh. I can act like a fool.

I do not like or feel comfortable in feminine clothing.....lace, frills, short skirts, prom dress, gown.....I will not say that an article of clothing without legs (a skirt/sarong/kilt) is strictly for girls cuz I know some Maori and Scottish men who would kick my ass up into next week.

I do not bind

It makes me nuts when folks are afraid to say they are butch just because they have and express their emotions or because they pick a particular style of clothing....

Originally Posted by CherylNYC

Hello Fanbutch, and welcome. One of the butchest butches that ever walked the earth was a huge fan of bright colours. In fact, it was rare for Woody to wear anything other than bright colours. If you want to see a picture of Woody wearing something very bright and gay to match her rainbow mohawk, look up 'dyke' in Wickipedia. Yes, my good friend Woody was so butch that they illustrated the word 'Dyke' with a picture of her leading the NYC Pride Parade down 5th Ave on her vintage /6 BMW. We all miss her terribly, but it's nice to visit her inspiring photo on Wickipedia. Woody also looked great in a tux, and she could rock the heck out of a seersucker suit.

I hope you aren't too confused by the seemingly odd answers that some of the other Planeteers posted in response to your question. You showed up just as a very annoying person with a fake ID, who took up a tremendous amount of attention with her pestering questions, was being shown the door. One of the queries from the false poster sounded a bit like your innocent and legitimate question.

Once again, welcome.

I just wanted to jump on the bandwagon of these posts because I am tired so anything I post may not be very coherent.

These folks hit the nail on the head quite nicely - if you feel that you are butch (or a butch), then you are; and this means that everything you wear, eat, watch, do, love, etc., is something a butch would wear, eat, watch, do, love, etc., because you are butch (or a butch) .... like a neat little circle.

And hey - welcome to the site.

[Martina]

I have to say that if I had the money, I would go to this nurse practitioner in Sacramento that some friends go to. She does hormone balancing. I don't understand it. But they have felt a lot better since going. It's observable how much better they are. So . . . who knows?

She is godawful expensive though, and my cats seem to want to eat everyday. They are unreasonable like that.

[girl_dee]

Originally Posted by Fanbutch

To be honest, I'm mostly asking because I feel like a butch, but I worry others would not define me that way. I love using the word "butch" to describe my gender as well as sexuality, but I have several characteristics that would, if going by the standard definition, contradict this identity. For example, I love bright colours and often wear them, am a total mush for rom coms, and tend to giggle and jump around when excited (which is frequently). But I also bind, and feel uncomfortable when my appearance is too feminine.
If butch is an umbrella term, I'd fall under it. But if it's more solid and unalterable, I probably wouldn't.

Yes it is baffling that you mention binding on this day. But here it is.

if you feel like a butch then you are one. No one can take that from you no matter what you wear or what you do. If you feel like a butch, you are!

Now rejoice!

[Angeltoes]

Originally Posted by Fanbutch

To be honest, I'm mostly asking because I feel like a butch, but I worry others would not define me that way. I love using the word "butch" to describe my gender as well as sexuality, but I have several characteristics that would, if going by the standard definition, contradict this identity. For example, I love bright colours and often wear them, am a total mush for rom coms, and tend to giggle and jump around when excited (which is frequently). But I also bind, and feel uncomfortable when my appearance is too feminine.
If butch is an umbrella term, I'd fall under it. But if it's more solid and unalterable, I probably wouldn't.

Mostly I think of butch as a dominant personality type, but that's just the type of butch I prefer. It can mean something totally different to others. Of course that person should have complexity and depth and even quirkiness. Outside of a hook-up that should be welcomed. If whoever with you're with objectifies you and doesn't accept you as a complete individual, then personally I think you should strive for better.

[Corkey]

A butch is. Period.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Submissive/bottom butch?

Still BUTCH

Dominant doesn't belong to one gender...

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Angeltoes

Mostly I think of butch as a dominant personality type

You should meet some of the femmes I've dated and/or been in service to. Oh my.