The Purse: Unpacking Femme Privilege

[Angeltoes]

But I do have clear boundaries. We're still talking about a cup of coffee, aren't we??

That's how you roll and that's fine. But personally, I do NOT think my time is worth more than the price of beverage because unless I'm working, my time is not for sale. I give it freely or not at all.

Originally Posted by Kätzchen

Just to add to this line of thought:

This is how *I* roll, too.

Angeltoes, as you grow on your journey these days, you will find that you tinker with your own system of boundaries and you may even find that several experiences of your own, now or in the future, will sharpen your focus on where your boundaries will need shoring up or expansion - on any given day or time or even more specific, as defined by an event that is unique to your own experience.

My boundaries in the past were pretty open. Not so much anymore but to add specificity to my statement: I remain open minded but govern my boundaries judiciously with each event or circumstance that presents the opportunity to fine tune my boundary system... because this is how my stone rolls these days.

[Kätzchen]

Originally Posted by Angeltoes

But I do have clear boundaries. We're still talking about a cup of coffee, aren't we??

That's how you roll and that's fine. But personally, I do NOT think my time is worth more than the price of beverage because unless I'm working, my time is not for sale. I give it freely or not at all.

My response was a direct response to your original question of:

I'm curious as to why people feel uncomfortable about accepting a cup of coffee from a stranger. I have bought for and accepted various things from strangers (Angeltoes).

Three other members besides myself posted in response to your original question for a total of 4 other perspectives of various experience in direct answer to your statement in question.

Accepting a cup of coffee, whether it be from a complete stranger to someone we barely know to someone we know better than as just a stranger (the aforementioned are examples of a particular context), come with types of intended or unintended consequences, which we may or may not be fully aware of. Hence why you got 4 offerings of perspective of various degrees.

Clear boundaries and valuation of time and other sets of items associated with the "cup of coffee" scenario you spoke of, are clearly not as simple as one might think.

[Blue_Daddy-O]

Originally Posted by Kätzchen

Clear boundaries and valuation of time and other sets of items associated with the "cup of coffee" scenario you spoke of, are clearly not as simple as one might think.

I believe often times it can be a simple gesture and others may read too much into it and miss out on the kindness of strangers.

Granted I've been on the receiving end too when it was meant to gain more.

[Toughy]

I could staunchly go around using terms deemed acceptable by the current intellectual ruling class feminist theorists,

Reader do you really think this comment was necessary? It feels snarky in my mind.
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As to ladies or or girls or ma'am or miss or mister or other gender specific words.......some like it and some don't.........I err on the side of just saying 'Hi how is it going' vs 'Hi ladies, how is it going?'......the ladies thing is totally un-necessary when addressing strangers and that is my nickel's worth.

It just feels creepy if someone I do not know at all.......a complete stranger offers to buy anything for me. If it's someone I see regularly in a store then it's all good. If someone I don't know is short some change in the grocery check-out, generally I will dig in my pocket to help them out and appreciate it if someone does the same for me. I think of it as paying forward.

so as you can see my feelings are totally muddy around this.....

[tantalizingfemme]

Originally Posted by Blue_Daddy-O

I believe often times it can be a simple gesture and others may read too much into it and miss out on the kindness of strangers.

Yes, however the incident we are discussing, Reader offered to buy the women's coffee with the intention of getting something in return or else she wouldn't have said she was "shot down"; Not in an act of kindness towards a stranger. Which feeds into the reason why a lot of us wouldn't accept someone else paying for our coffee.

[Reader]

Originally Posted by Reader

Well, I hear you about the eye-contact thing. Perhaps in NJ it is different.

About two weeks ago I was in Dunkin Donuts and it was late at night and two nurses in scrubs were getting coffee. I was next to them getting my own coffee, when the dark-haired one began chatting me up. I chatted back. She was kind of nice and seemed like she could have been a femme lesbian, but it was hard to tell since she and her friend were both wearing scrubs.

I got the feeling she was flirting with me. Normally, I am sort of dense about such things, but I have been lacking a femme in my life, missing that pleasant femme energy a lot lately and so I am more aware of its absence, I guess.

She and her friend received their stuff and I said to her, "I'd be happy to get that for you ladies", holding out a bill in their server's direction. She said "Oh, uh,..." and she stammered and looked at her friend. I added, "Might I get those coffees for you?" She finally said, "Oh, no, no. Thanks anyway. We have it." I said "OK", paid for my coffee and left.

Now, I could interpret that interaction in a few ways. My best friend, a femme by the way, made a disparaging remark about straight women who enjoy flirting with butches when I recounted this tale to her. Maybe she was just a friendly woman who was not flirting at all. Who knows?

Until I am coupled, I will continue, on those rare occasions, to make friendly gestures to women who appear to flirt with me in public.

It's kind of fun, in a strange, character-stretching way, to be shot down in public. After all, a loaded gun, once properly disassembled, is rendered impotent. The same holds true for defeat.

I don't think it will be especially helpful to respond in-depth to everyone's or anyone's reaction, in particular, to my post, except to say thanks to all for reading it. Of course, I had no idea that my little tale would generate such interest.

Sometimes, on BFP, I imagine that I am chatting with pals in a small cafe and yet somehow it evolves into something quite different; my post and I end up being inspected, dissected and soundly rejected (I do believe I have the end-line for a new poem---> "inspected, dissected and soundly rejected" ...but I digress ;-) , sometimes my post and I end up being inspected, dissected and soundly rejected by the same folks in multiple threads. I find this harmless, possible coincidence rather flattering at times and oddly amusing at others (truth be told) and not for what may seem to be the obvious reasons.

The folks who do the inspecting, dissecting and rejecting often actually do not know what I mean or what I am referring to, and a misunderstanding can occur which happened recently in another thread. As in real life, I only clarify my statements to folks when they ask me to. Otherwise, I assume I am clearly understood. I usually take some care in what I post. If people misunderstand me I do not blame them, I blame my own lack of writing skill, for this is a forum where one communicates by writing (mostly), and it does take skill to discuss complex issues in such a one-dimensional, black and white, way. I believe the need for skill is the reason there are so many "fluff" and fun threads and those light threads have the most hits.

Many people come here to socialize in a safe way and have an enjoyable time. They don't dare post anything that could cause them to gain the notice of those who might misunderstand them, even if they might need to vent or get support or wish to be educated.

I'm sure there is tons of stuff we all could learn and share with each other, but I suspect, nah, I KNOW from talking with people offline, that folks are afraid to post things because they lack confidence in their writing/communication skills and they are concerned that there is a roving pack of Post Police (and I DO NOT MEAN ADMINS) who are anxious to filet them for what often amounts to their inability to effectively communicate using this awkward medium.

All of this leads me to my reason for this post, my reason for replying in this way to all of the replies to my anecdotal post in this thread. I wish to clarify one thing because another post of mine was apparently misunderstood and, Can I Just Say, it left me rather perplexed.

In this thread I posted: <SNIP> "It's kind of fun, in a strange, character-stretching way, to be shot down in public. After all, a loaded gun, once properly disassembled, is rendered impotent. The same holds true for defeat."

For the record, what I was referring to above was a larger message to all of us: defeat, of any kind, public or private, can be taken apart and made harmless. Defeat can be temporary. There is always the option of outlasting defeat, no matter how big, no matter how small. In short, you can beat defeat.

Incidentally, I wasn't "defeated" or "shot down" in my attempt to "get something" in return, I was shot down in my attempt to have someone "take" something from me in the form of coffee.

This is a clear example of how it often is true that by doing service or "giving" service to others, we ourselves, in reality, are often the ones "receiving" the most from the act. I'm sure all of you fine folks who do social work or volunteer or help animal rescue or deposit spiders outside instead of killing them know just what I mean, eh?

[The_Lady_Snow]

I'm sorry but who exactly is this "roving pack of Post police?

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Reader

I don't think it will be especially helpful to respond in-depth to everyone's or anyone's reaction, in particular, to my post, except to say thanks to all for reading it. Of course, I had no idea that my little tale would generate such interest.

Sometimes, on BFP, I imagine that I am chatting with pals in a small cafe and yet somehow it evolves into something quite different; my post and I end up being inspected, dissected and soundly rejected (I do believe I have the end-line for a new poem---> "inspected, dissected and soundly rejected" ...but I digress ;-) , sometimes my post and I end up being inspected, dissected and soundly rejected by the same folks in multiple threads. I find this harmless, possible coincidence rather flattering at times and oddly amusing at others (truth be told) and not for what may seem to be the obvious reasons.



Sometimes we do have the opportunity to have conversations, chat with pals in a intimate situation be it over coffee, food, telephone, Reunion, visiting, etc. I have been part of conversations or just listened and we (people) do disect, inspect and sometimes reject the things we are having conversations about. This is how we learn, how we teach, how we discuss and yes dissect things that to YOU (general) may not be a big deal but to some of us it is therefore we learn from one another...

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The folks who do the inspecting, dissecting and rejecting often actually do not know what I mean or what I am referring to, and a misunderstanding can occur which happened recently in another thread. As in real life, I only clarify my statements to folks when they ask me to. Otherwise, I assume I am clearly understood. I usually take some care in what I post. If people misunderstand me I do not blame them, I blame my own lack of writing skill, for this is a forum where one communicates by writing (mostly), and it does take skill to discuss complex issues in such a one-dimensional, black and white, way. I believe the need for skill is the reason there are so many "fluff" and fun threads and those light threads have the most hits.


Sometimes the dissecting and rejecting is nothing personal against the person who posted, or we ourselves posted. We are a vast community with different opinions and life experiences. I am not surprised that in a Femme Zone a few femme's decided to talk about what their experiences were in regards to your scenario. I don't find anything wrong with it, it's women.Femmes. talking about what it feels like to them in a Zone made for them therefore thinking that they can safely talk about their experiences.

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Many people come here to socialize in a safe way and have an enjoyable time. They don't dare post anything that could cause them to gain the notice of those who might misunderstand them, even if they might need to vent or get support or wish to be educated.



Even those who speak more or dissect things come in here with the thought of being safe to be able to do so. I don't understand how you can say that others do not post because of some kind of vigilant pack waiting to jump or attack these people. Just because someone needs to vent or get support does not mean they get to do it in a way that has an ism attached to it.


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I'm sure there is tons of stuff we all could learn and share with each other, but I suspect, nah, I KNOW from talking with people offline, that folks are afraid to post things because they lack confidence in their writing/communication skills and they are concerned that there is a roving pack of Post Police (and I DO NOT MEAN ADMINS) who are anxious to filet them for what often amounts to their inability to effectively communicate using this awkward medium.


I am going to be honest and tell you that the above statement pisses me off, it is a tiring assigned label that gets placed on people who choose to speak up about things, talk about experiences, or say hey that isn't ok or hey that kinda shit makes me uncomfy and here is why..

That's not a pack of post police Reader, that is community members wanting to have hard discussions about things that may not make you feel warm inside your brithches but they are conversations that need to be had nonetheless. I find it ugly. mean and unfair that you have labeled those of us who do speak up, cause let me tell you it is a fucking pain in the ass to continuously have people label you as some kind of *pack* animal, police, gang just because you took the fun or lifted the veil of someone's post and pointed out what may or may not make others feel uncomfy.

Also the whole others tell me they won't post bullshit is tiring, old and frankly against The TOS, it's not up to you to be the shining knight in armor falling onto a sword for those to *scared* of the post police..



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All of this leads me to my reason for this post, my reason for replying in this way to all of the replies to my anecdotal post in this thread. I wish to clarify one thing because another post of mine was apparently misunderstood and, Can I Just Say, it left me rather perplexed.

In this thread I posted: <SNIP> "It's kind of fun, in a strange, character-stretching way, to be shot down in public. After all, a loaded gun, once properly disassembled, is rendered impotent. The same holds true for defeat."

For the record, what I was referring to above was a larger message to all of us: defeat, of any kind, public or private, can be taken apart and made harmless. Defeat can be temporary. There is always the option of outlasting defeat, no matter how big, no matter how small. In short, you can beat defeat.

Incidentally, I wasn't "defeated" or "shot down" in my attempt to "get something" in return, I was shot down in my attempt to have someone "take" something from me in the form of coffee.

This is a clear example of how it often is true that by doing service or "giving" service to others, we ourselves, in reality, are often the ones "receiving" the most from the act. I'm sure all of you fine folks who do social work or volunteer or help animal rescue or deposit spiders outside instead of killing them know just what I mean, eh?

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I hate spiders, I am no social worker nor do I walk animals at the rescue. I can say though I am someone who believes in service especially to a community and I truly believe that those of us who speak up, who call out the bullshit, the racism, the ism's are doing this online community a service doing so. That's how we learn, that's how we STOP the ism's and I find it really sad that you are dismissing the words of the women.femmes who decided to take part of your post and talk about what it feels like for them in regard to your sceneario.

[Medusa]

Ok Folks-

We are getting reported posts about the recent exchanges.

Everyone in this thread needs to remember a few things:

* Invoking the "clique out to get me" or "certain people" scenario is not a way to engage in actual conversation. It's a red herring that, whether intended or not, creates an "anyone who doesn't agree with me is part of 'those people'" situation, and further derails the actual conversation into an ugly "us versus them" diatribe.

We don't want that. And further, it is against our TOS.

* Everyone needs to be speaking about their own experiences, not speaking for other people and certainly not "white knighting" for the invisible masses.

This is a nice thread and has created some wonderful discussion. I don't want to see this thread go to hell so please, let's all be super respectful of one another and anyone feeling like they can't post within those guidelines needs to take a time out from this thread (or they will receive a free one from the site).

Thanks!

[pinkgeek]

Reading this thread gave me an interesting insight into the world I live in that is not mainland USA. Sometimes paying for dinner, lunch, snack or coffee is a cultural thing, and not one that can be ignored.

A school pal and I often go out to lunch before or after studying. We usually just pay our own way - no worries. One day we went someplace that only took cash and all I had was a cc (not ATM) card on me because I forgot my wallet. I keep a back up card stashed deep in the bottom back pocket of my bag because well.. I'm forgetful..

So anyway - it wasn't a big deal I just decided to forgo lunch. She said no, I said yes, she said no, I said yes, and finally she looked at me and said "this is Hawaii, it's rude for me to eat alone, so pick something or I'll pick for you, but I'm not eating alone, don't be rude!" (I don't eat fish and she does, so I picked out of fear of being stuck with seafood soup!) Since then - we don't question if one of us doesn't have cash or is broke we just eat because it is the culturally appropriate thing to do.

The above is a deviation on what has been discussed - my point is that our views about "a simple cup of coffee" or "just a drink" and "the value of time" are, like all things, inherently affected by our culture. Not just the culture(s) we grew up with or the ones we live in/adhere to as adults, but also by the cultures of the people we interact with. Hence we have differences of opinion about something as seemingly simple as "a cup of coffee".

[Reader]

Hi all. OK, I will try and answer some of the posts.

First of all, not everyone is offended by being called a "lady". Sure, in theory, I could staunchly go around using terms deemed acceptable by the current intellectual ruling class feminist theorists, et al, but, I was just chatting in line late at night at Dunkin Donuts unexpectedly. "Ladies" is what I said. They neither blanched, nor fumed. Just sayin'.

To me, giving someone my number directly seems even more forward than giving a waitress a five for two cups of coffee. But, maybe they were offended. If so, then even if she/they were dykes, we would not have been suitably matched even as pals. I am fairly laid back in many ways. As some of you know, I am considered non-'pc' by some folks, gauche by others. For example, I have been known to take my own spinach to Chinese food restaurants and ask them to sautee it because they didn't serve it on their menu. This could mortify some dining companions.

If the woman had said "Why, thank you, that's very nice of you. Might you join us?", I certainly would have joined them for the coffee and chatted for a few minutes. Offering to pay for a beverage certainly does not seem as ominous to me as it seems to be to some of you, but I don't know what kind of experiences you've had.

I've been at plenty of bars when folks buy rounds or single drinks for me. It never felt odd. But, I can understand if some folks don't like it.

I often pay for my companions when dining out, because there were times when others paid for me. I honestly never feel that anyone "owes" me a thing just because I happen to pay for us to do something. I OFFER. I hang out with folks who do not have a sense of entitlement, who do not EXPECT me to pay. My pals pay for me, too, sometimes and if they don't pay for me they do other things which are even better, like COOK for me and then wash the dishes...who can beat that! Who can beat having your girlfriend cook food, dish it up, serve it to you as you sit on her couch and then have her take the dishes away and wash them, too? I will gladly pay for dinner out to get that treatment at home. However, the second I think someone feels entitled to such treatment or is using me I will stop treating them well. I am always appreciative when a woman does things for me and I always feel appreciated, now, that is, when I do things for people. Otherwise, I do not do them. I simply S-T-O-P doing them if I feel used.

I am not on this board as much lately, but I'm glad I saw this thread is active again. Let me also just add that as a butch I do possess butchness. I AM a butch. I will bring a woman flowers. I will remark that she looks pretty. I will delight in her femininity as it defines itself and reveals itself in my world. I like femmes. I do think there is "femme privilege" and I support that for the most part.

[aishah]

If the woman had said "Why, thank you, that's very nice of you. Might you join us?", I certainly would have joined them for the coffee and chatted for a few minutes. Offering to pay for a beverage certainly does not seem as ominous to me as it seems to be to some of you, but I don't know what kind of experiences you've had.

I've been at plenty of bars when folks buy rounds or single drinks for me. It never felt odd. But, I can understand if some folks don't like it.

I often pay for my companions when dining out, because there were times when others paid for me. I honestly never feel that anyone "owes" me a thing just because I happen to pay for us to do something. I OFFER. I hang out with folks who do not have a sense of entitlement, who do not EXPECT me to pay. My pals pay for me, too, sometimes and if they don't pay for me they do other things which are even better, like COOK for me and then wash the dishes...who can beat that! Who can beat having your girlfriend cook food, dish it up, serve it to you as you sit on her couch and then have her take the dishes away and wash them, too? I will gladly pay for dinner out to get that treatment at home. However, the second I think someone feels entitled to such treatment or is using me I will stop treating them well. I am always appreciative when a woman does things for me and I always feel appreciated, now, that is, when I do things for people. Otherwise, I do not do them. I simply S-T-O-P doing them if I feel used.

i've had a lot of experiences with masculine-of-center folks who felt entitled to my time and attention because i am a femme woman, period. mainly cisgendered men, but not only. that's why i'm wary of strangers, especially strangers doing nice things for me. i'm extremely friendly to everyone and i like to believe the best of people, but my experience has been more often than not that masculine-of-center folks have taken that to mean that they can invade my space physically, pressure me to go out with them, pressure me for my number, etc. often if i say no, i'm completely ignored and they refuse to stop pressuring me or they get angry and threaten me. that is why i personally understand the wariness to accept free cups of coffee, free drinks at the bar, or what have you.

obviously not all strangers are like that, but i'd say about half or more of the time, i end up in a very uncomfortable situation. so, you know. i'm still an extremely friendly person, but it has made me very wary, and i completely understand why some people might not be friendly, or might appear standoffish, or might not accept a drink from a stranger or acquaintance.

for me, buying something for someone i know and have an understood relationship with where there are not implied expectations or we're cool like that is a totally different story. i buy things for friends and they buy things for me all the time.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Reader

Let me also just add that as a butch I do possess butchness. I AM a butch. I will bring a woman flowers. I will remark that she looks pretty. I will delight in her femininity as it defines itself and reveals itself in my world. I like femmes. I do think there is "femme privilege" and I support that for the most part.

You get that is not what femme privilege means? Femme privilege is what we get from passing as straight. It means we aren't read as gender non-conforming and don't receive the hostility that folks who do receive. It's nothing most of us want, and it has nothing to do with receiving flowers from butches or being flattered.

Moreover, BEING butch does not mean bringing women flowers or delighting in femininity. As you know, the world is full of butches who prefer other butches.