What attracts you to Ftms ......

[JAGG]

Originally Posted by *Anya*

Oh, the good old 1950's! How about this article which is typical of women's magazines of the time?

Sounds super doesn't it?

Signed,

Anya
(The anti-June Cleaver)


Housekeeping Monthly - May 13, 1955:

*Have dinner ready. Plan ahead, even the night before, to have a delicious meal ready on time for his return. This is a way of letting him know that you have be thinking about him and are concerned about his needs. Most men are hungry when they come home and the prospect of a good meal (especially his favourite dish) is part of the warm welcome needed.

*Prepare yourself. Take 15 minutes to rest so you’ll be refreshed when he arrives. Touch up your make-up, put a ribbon in your hair and be fresh-looking. He has just been with a lot of work-weary men.

*Be a little gay and a little more interesting for him. His boring day may need a lift and one of your duties is to provide it.

*Clear away the clutter. Make one last trip through the main part of the house just before your husband arrives. Run a dustcloth over the tables.

*Over the cooler months of the year you should prepare and light a fire for him to unwind by. Your husband will feel he has reached a haven of rest and order, and it will give you a lift too. After all, catering for his comfort will provide you with immense personal satisfaction.

*Minimize all noise. At the time of his arrival, eliminate all noise of the washer, dryer or vacuum. Encourage the children to be quiet.

*Be happy to see him.

*Greet him with a warm smile and show sincerity in your desire to please him.

*Listen to him. You may have a dozen important things to tell him, but the moment of his arrival is not the time. Let him talk first - remember, his topics of conversation are more important than yours.

*Make the evening his. Never complain if he comes home late or goes out to dinner or other places of entertainment without you.
Instead, try to understand his world of strain and pressure and his very real need to be at home and relax.

*Your goal: To try and make sure your home is a place of peace, order, and tranquility where your husband can renew himself in body and spirit.

*Don’t greet him with complaints and problems.

*Make him comfortable. Have him lean back in a comfortable chair or have him lie down in the bedroom.

*Have a cool or warm drink ready for him.

*Arrange his pillow and offer to take off his shoes. Speak in a low, soothing and pleasant voice.

^Don’t ask him questions about his actions or question his judgment or integrity. Remember, he is the master of the house and as such will always exercise his will with fairness and truthfulness. You have no right to question him.



*A good wife always knows her place.

When

I read this it instantly ticked me off. But actually it is such
a farse that it's hilarious. Thanks for sharing Anya. It is too funny to even criticize. I can not even take it seriously enough to even care it is too freakin funny.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by JAGG

When

I read this it instantly ticked me off. But actually it is such
a farse that it's hilarious. Thanks for sharing Anya. It is too funny to even criticize. I can not even take it seriously enough to even care it is too freakin funny.

Unfortunately it isn't a farce.

My favorite cookbook is a Betty Crocker, published in the 1940s. A cookbook...and it actually contains a page of this type of "advice." This is the messaging about the expectations for women...and not that long ago.

[thedivahrrrself]

Ummmm, who is June Cleaver?

[princessbelle]

Many of us have seen the era of "Barney Fife making ice cream on Andy's porch" life romanticized until it hits a sore spot.

Unfortunately the fact of the matter of the 1950s is...

Unless you were a white male of means you were not important.

Women, POC, minorities, children (who were suppose to be seen and not heard) were not important, relevant or worthy of a real life. (real to the degree, they in their own right had their own needs and desires)

And remember this especially....gay people? Let alone FTMs? Forget it. Wasn't happening.

Personally, *i* will take the risk of a modern world of internet and busy lives versus a life of oppression, bigotry and male white supremacy.

Any day of the week.

[femmsational]

Just curious.......what would be the approved of method for those people who do fit best into what's being describe as the "june cleaver".....role, for lack of a better word.

I ask because this comes up over and over and the arguments are always the same and they always go round and round.

I understand that there is a very clear line when speaking about what works for you as an individual. Do so in your "me" voice and don't step on the backs of others to explain why your way works. That should be obvious enough to any grown person who has interacted with other grown people on a regular basis. I understand that when that, very clear line, is stepped over, it's gonna be brought up, as it should.

Where I get hung up about this, especially on this topic is why then, when we are reminded that our way doesn't work for everyone and we need to be more aware of words, thoughts and actions, do we then go into a history lesson of all the ills perpertrated on others during that era?


And please hear this....I am NOT dismissing the ignorant/non-tolerant/dumbass ways in which most rich white men acted back then.

What I am asking is, can we come up with a way to discuss the needs of some, without having to go into a history lesson and describe all the ways that feeling comfortable as 'june cleaver' is so antiquated, old fashioned....blahblahblah.

I fit this category. It's the me that fires my soul. And I am not old fashioned, weak or antiquated in my thinking. So there must be some way to be okay with both trains of thought. Or at least I would hope, as adults we could figure out a way to be tolerant of everyone that is not me.


Just really wishing for tolerance across the board. Probably another of my many pollyana moments but, such is life.


Take Care,
julie


P.S. What I love about most FTM's is the strength that seems to acrue during the transition. It's a strong person that can spit in the eye of "normal" to become their normal. Makes me all squishy inside.

[BullDog]

Originally Posted by femmsational

What I am asking is, can we come up with a way to discuss the needs of some, without having to go into a history lesson and describe all the ways that feeling comfortable as 'june cleaver' is so antiquated, old fashioned....blahblahblah.

Because people are romanticizing an era- that's why. They are not just saying oh we want to stand in the kitchen with an apron on.

People want to fantasize "the good old days" but still have all the modern benefits that people have fought for- Civil Rights, Womens Rights, Trans Rights etc and then complain about how things aren't as good now as "the good old days."

[femmsational]

Originally Posted by BullDog

Because people are romanticizing an era- that's why. They are not just saying oh we want to stand in the kitchen with an apron on.

People want to fantasize "the good old days" but still have all the modern benefits that people have fought for- Civil Rights, Womens Rights, Trans Rights etc and then complain about how things aren't as good now as "the good old days."

Some may be, some I know for sure aren't.

How do I talk about what works for us (my other half and I) without upsetting the apple cart.

Serious question. Not trying to cause a snark fest.


And one more thing, there is nothing wrong with wishing there was a little more common decency in this world.


julie

[femmsational]

Originally Posted by femmsational

What I love about most FTM's is the strength that seems to accrue during the transition. It's a strong person that can spit in the eye of "normal" to become their normal. Makes me all squishy inside.

disclaimer...please note I am posting in a thread about FTM's in the Trans Zone. I do realize that the above could apply to pretty much.....everybody.

[Martina]

I would like to repeat that I said, and maintain, that I do not care what people do in their own homes and relationships. I do not think that people's individual choices are wrong. I do think that holding up a patriarchal family model as an example of how people ought to live is beyond wrong. Unbelievably wrong. And it's a fight long since over in the culture at large. If membership in my subculture requires that I give up the gains made for civil rights in the larger culture, then . . . I vote for human rights.

That said, I do not think that anyone is living in a way that deprives them of their human rights. But if someone -- like the couple in the past -- were to endorse that again, recommend it, hold it up as an example, then to not call it out is wrong. I repeat the word -- "wrong."

[Chancie]

What bothers me is not the desire to dance a waltz with predetermined steps and roles, if that's the dance you most enjoy.

It's the very weird assumption from a bunch of queers that it reflects the good old days.

Who were they good for, anyway?

I know that there are queers who aspire to the financial freedom to a very particular lifestyle choice but

The good old days?

Yes, some young men were more polite to older women than we might see on public transportation but

You would be safe to assume that a young white man sat with his legs spread way out while older Black women stood.

Surely those of you who wish for a marriage that mirrors The Cleavers can find a more descriptive way of describing it than the tired old chestnut, Oh, how I miss the good old days, or I am an old fashioned man or femme or butch.

ETA PS My post is not a response to Julie's post.

[femmsational]

Originally Posted by Chancie

What bothers me is not the desire to dance a waltz with predetermined steps and roles, if that's the dance you most enjoy.

It's the very weird assumption from a bunch of queers that it reflects the good old days.

Who were they good for, anyway?

I know that there are queers who aspire to the financial freedom to a very particular lifestyle choice but

The good old days?

Yes, some young men were more polite to older women than we might see on public transportation but

You would be safe to assume that a young white man sat with his legs spread way out while older Black women stood.

Surely those of you who wish for a marriage that mirrors The Cleavers can find a more descriptive way of describing it than the tired old chestnut, Oh, how I miss the good old days, or I am an old fashioned man or femme or butch.

ETA PS My post is not a response to Julie's post.

LOL!! It would have been ok if it was in response to my post. :-)

Basically, I'm asking the same thing you are. How can we talk about this 'june cleaver' way of living, without going back in history.

I know I call it the good old days, but that's cause I don't know any other concise way to describe what works for me. And normally only with people who are heterosexual. There has GOT to be a way that won't twist everybodys nose outta whack. You know??


julie

[The_Lady_Snow]

Julie, the problem isn't stating one's (general) preferences, the issues that arise each and every time is when someone talks about their preferences and then in the same sentence is dismissive to others who aren't.


I'm a queer Leather Femme I can discuss my many likes, wants, desires, needs without having to talk about others that aren't or even mention them.

[femmsational]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Julie, the problem isn't stating one's (general) preferences, the issues that arise each and every time is when someone talks about their preferences and then in the same sentence is dismissive to others who aren't.


I'm a queer Leather Femme I can discuss my many likes, wants, desires, needs without having to talk about others that aren't or even mention them.

That's exactly what I said in my first post.

I say it for both sides of this coin.

And not just this issue. You, general you, should be able to express an opinion without shitting all over someone elses choices/needs/wants/must haves. It SHOULD be a very simple thing. Or at least I think it should be.


j

[Martina]

Keep in mind that I usually engage in power exchange relationships, as a submissive, on a 24/7 basis.

I think that doing 50's household outside of a fetish setting IS reenacting patriarchal ideologies and power structures. Sure it's a choice that anyone can make, and I truly do not care what other consenting adults do. But do not tell me that you -- generic 50'shouseholder you (not any particular poster) -- are realizing some better, nobler way of life. Do not describe it as a return to better values. It's your fetish, your thing, what makes you hot. Call it that.

We have had a couple on this very site -- banned now, I believe -- claim that this arrangement was the healthiest way to live and raise children. They really meant that. They wrote it. On a feminist site.

If you want to recreate the gender power dynamics in a way that you imagine were current in the 1950's, by all means do it. Have a great time. But do not say you are in any way modeling a more mannerly or civilized way of life. You may be a mannerly and civilized person. But you are not realizing a social construct that ANYONE except similar fetishists should adopt.

The fact is that 50's household, by definition, gives power to the male ID'd person, not the person of whatever gender who is inherently more powerful. That's what you are enacting. It happens to be a fit for you as a couple. It HAPPENS to be. It is not a good model for most people. Pretending it is morally righteous in anyway recapitulates patriarchal ideology.

[femmsational]

Originally Posted by Martina

Keep in mind that I usually engage in power exchange relationships, as a submissive, on a 24/7 basis.

I think that doing 50's household outside of a fetish setting IS reenacting patriarchal ideologies and power structures. Sure it's a choice that anyone can make, and I truly do not care what other consenting adults do. But do not tell me that you -- generic 50'shouseholder you (not any particular poster) -- are realizing some better, nobler way of life. Do not describe it as a return to better values. It's your fetish, your thing, what makes you hot. Call it that.

We have had a couple on this very site -- banned now, I believe -- claim that this arrangement was the healthiest way to live and raise children. They really meant that. They wrote it. On a feminist site.

If you want to recreate the gender power dynamics in a way that you imagine were current in the 1950's, by all means do it. Have a great time. But do not say you are in any way modeling a more mannerly or civilized way of life. You may be a mannerly and civilized person. But you are not realizing a social construct that ANYONE except similar fetishists should adopt.

The fact is that 50's household, by definition, gives power to the male ID'd person, not the person of whatever gender who is inherently more powerful. That's what you are enacting. It happens to be a fit for you as a couple. It HAPPENS to be. It is not a good model for most people. Pretending it is morally righteous in anyway recapitulates patriarchal ideology.

As for the red, holy crap! Nobody has a right to tell anyone what is or is not the right way to do anything. That's just plain crazy to me.


Not everybody fits into that vision Martina. I'm not trying to be a role model and I sure am not trying to sell my version of yummy to anyone else. I don't even think I really buy into what works for me as being a "50's" way of being.

But for us, it does work that I stay at home (head injury and all) and Brute works. I cook, he takes out the trash....when he's home dammit!!! He deals with certain "male" things and I deal with certain "female" things. But's that's not how we live or define ourselfs. It's just works out that what he does best is what society has labeled the "man" thing and what I do best, society has labeled the "woman" thing.

And I think that's the root of this issue. Because society sees certain traits and behaviors as gendered, the fact that what seems to work for me to be me, is labeled as societies idea of man or woman. I can't help that. Just because society decides that such and such is such and such, and I don't like societies version of such and such, that doesn't mean I still don't fell more comfortable with MY version of such and such. I'm sure that made absolutly no sense to anyone but me. LOL!


About manners....I don't place any sort of....I don't know what to call it...judgement maybe? on where my ideas of polite and mannerly come from. All I know is that people act rude in public and that's fucked up. The only thing I can relate it to is the law. Your rights end where my nose begins. So if your child is running around the store throwing things on the floor, they are walking on my nose.

This is so hard to articulate. I wish I had better words.


j

[Duchess]

What I'm attracted to first is the energy of the person and if they happen to be FT M so be it. What I think is supremely sexy is the abundance of male energy with an underlying dichotomy of sorts.


Duchess