June Cleaver : Femme Friend or Femme Foe

[The_Lady_Snow]

What is the attraction?


I am unsure, if I had to guess I would have say that it's the nurturing (cooking, cleaning, doing the mom thing, overly attentive wife role. I can see how these things would be appealing if one was in the dynamic where these specifics were desired.


As a woman who can't identify in this manner I don't like it, it's not for me and I find it to be exploiting, dismissing, erasing of "June". I want to know more about June Cleaver what she thinks, who she hangs out with, what's her favorite color, and does want to beat her kids asses when they are assholes.

She's (June) is one dimensional and my mind is like WHAT!!! It does this because women aren't one dimensional were vast endless compartments of variety.

It's a double edged sword for me, it makes me go huh, I can see how that works and yet it tugs the very core of what makes me Snow when I see her compared to or elevated to Femme personification.

[easygoingfemme]

Interesting discussion.
I'll start with saying it never would have crossed my mind to compare myself/shoot for a June Cleaver type life, nor would I have thought that in identifying as femme I might somehow be expected to.

I have, however, had other thoughts about what it meant to be femme, and it's something that made me resist that label for years. (didn't stop me from being weak in the knees over the butches, but that's another story). When I was coming out and getting established in the community, The femme role was taught to me as more of a weakness, a less than, or a fashion statement that I didn't understand, relate to, or want. So I just did my thing and was just... me- somewhere in the middle I guess.

As for the power dynamic and the Cleaver "ideal", that's something I have always rejected. I watched my mom try to live that life and I would argue her about it- to stop packing lunches and trying to make everything "as it should be" when she obviously wasn't happy doing so and she was not being appreciated, especially by my father.

One thing I love about the planet is that it helped me deeply validate that I can be my own independent stubborn person, and at the same time be all about that which is the magic of the butch-femme-dance. And I can be my own femme in that dance as I have created her. That we all have our own definition of our label and we respect how each other walk what we have chosen and what feels *right* to us.

A few years ago I found myself up to my ears in a relationship that had been founded on complete equality and over the course of years had diminished into a vastly different picture where I had become, in essence, a housewife. Mind you I still worked and financially supported myself, but I was not an equal person in relationship to my partner and there were major expectations that I was going to be the one doing, well, the June Cleaver jobs, and that I was to accept whatever my partner wanted to do whenever she wanted to do it. When it became clear to me that we weren't going to find our footing back to equality, I ended the relationship. It took a year to get there, we both fought the end in our own ways, and it meant leaving my home and starting all over with a teenager in tow, but it was not a dynamic I could have ever lived with because I was being disrespected on so many levels. FOR ME, that role in a relationship would never work.

So that's my .02 on the issue. I think it's something that so many women face, not just in our community, not even close. I think for some women, it works. It is what is *right* for them. But if it's not what's right for both parties, I can't imagine either person in the relationship being happy with it. On the flip side of this, I would never be able to be happy in a relationship where a partner of mine was not living a fulfilling life, especially if they were not being fulfilled because of a dynamic that existed in our relationship.

THANK YOU for bringing this up!

Love the BFP.

[Medusa]

See! I can get alllllll up into some submission and slap on an apron and heels and balance a pie delicately on a plate while serving it in that oh-o-dainty way. That way that says "Oh, aren't I just the tiniest little thing!"

But it's part of playtime. Until it's not.

I'm all about serving and most of the time that has nothing to do with submission. I like to make other people feel good. I like to make food for other people. My payoff is a sense of satisfaction so in that regard, I can see how adopting that "PowerJune" persona (role-play) works for folks if that's their thing!

I can see how the part of the June Clever idealism where she can perfectly present everything is super attractive. I can see the doting caretaker part being attractive.

I find that attractive in other people, Butches, Femmes, and Transmen alike. I like that (consensual) level of attention and I like to give that level of attention (consensually) as well.

I wonder if folks who really identify with the "50s housewife" (and I am sometimes one of them) are teasing out the parts that are about perfection and caretaking? I know I get especially pleased with myself knowing that I work 50 hours a week, go to school full time, maintain this site with the help of the other Mods, keep a clean house, cook dinners, and do all of that while washing my ass on a schedule and maintaining a cheery attitude. One of my girlfriends at work calls me "Martha Stewart Superwoman" because she says I do it all while looking good.
I don't do it ALL but I appreciate that she is recognizing how much energy I am putting into things.

Anyway, I'm rambling.

Great thread!

[JustJo]

Piggybacking off of Medusa's post....

I think some of the that is the same for me. I'm not into submission, but I am into service. I like to do things for the people in my life....partly because it makes them feel good, and partly because it makes me feel good.

And, yes, I confess there's a little bit of the superwoman thing too. I have prided myself on always supporting myself, working, taking care of my son, maintaining a home, putting myself through school, getting an advanced degree....and still being able to bake from scratch or make my own jam.

My pushy broad peeks in too....and I'm just as liable to be pushing the people in my life to do better, which I'm sure can be rather annoying.

[Gráinne]

I was thinking of two other TV women from around the same time who may seem almost the opposite-Lily Munster and Morticia Addams. Ignoring the fact that their houses were supposed to look like that, each prided themselves on the appearance of their homes (well, Morticia had servants). Both were devoted mothers, and Lily was often a font of wisdom for her niece, Marilyn (who was far closer to the "ideal" 60's woman).

It's interesting, maybe only to me, that Lily was one of the few TV wives who was portrayed as being more decisive and perhaps smarter than her husband. She swung into effective action to try to get the family out of a jam of Herman's making. Both of them, but especially Morticia, brought sex appeal back. She wasn't afraid to show "heat" with Gomez.

Maybe the only way TV mothers and wives could be that sexy and independent was to be almost freakish and foreign, especially to the "normal" people around them.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by guihong

I was thinking of two other TV women from around the same time who may seem almost the opposite-Lily Munster and Morticia Addams. Ignoring the fact that their houses were supposed to look like that, each prided themselves on the appearance of their homes (well, Morticia had servants). Both were devoted mothers, and Lily was often a font of wisdom for her niece, Marilyn (who was far closer to the "ideal" 60's woman).

It's interesting, maybe only to me, that Lily was one of the few TV wives who was portrayed as being more decisive and perhaps smarter than her husband. She swung into effective action to try to get the family out of a jam of Herman's making. Both of them, but especially Morticia, brought sex appeal back. She wasn't afraid to show "heat" with Gomez.

Maybe the only way TV mothers and wives could be that sexy and independent was to be almost freakish and foreign, especially to the "normal" people around them.

Yet none of the women portraying a more powerful role in the relationship is upheld as a model or example of what Femme should be, as a matter of fact it's dismissed, nose wrinkled at and pushed aside for a more softer version of Femme.

Women who are empowered are spoken to different, treated different, objectified differently, and put into a less than hole than the softer version.


It's engrained sexism, that we as Femmes are engrained with. I could be wrong though, I don't think so though.

[girl_dee]

Good Gods i love this thread.

i've only read the first few posts and want to thank everyone for posting.

i just realized that when i was a kid, watching that show, was such a fantasy for me, and an escape.

i don't want to sound like i am complaining about my childhood but my family was the complete opposite of all of those shows, the Brady Bunch, Leave it to Beaver, Ozzie and Harriet, Family Affair, whatever was on i watched it if there was a family involved. i loved and hated all of the characters.

My parents were alcoholics and all that came with it. My parents were angry and the violence in our home was a daily thing. In these shows the parents nurtured, were respectful and didn't scream at each other or beat the kids to the point where they couldn't go to school. Ward didn't come home drunk from the bar and verbally and physically abuse the entire family. Ohhh what an episode that would have made! The kids on TV had friends over, and nice lunches made for them, family dinners. We were lucky if there was a potato for all of us at the table at dinner. Just once i wished my mom would talk to me like June did, soft and caring, not angry and spiteful. Dinner time at my house was so stressful i couldn't eat and was a very thin, sickly kid. Our hood was nothing like where the Cleaver's lived. i armed myself at a young age to get to school, and while at school.

For me that was the attraction as a kid, a way to escape. At the time i was not thinking of oppression, suppression, privilege, classism, sexism etc. but then again i was just a little kid. My world consisted of walking on eggshells and staying out of the way.

i haven't decided what the attraction for me as an adult is, but i sure love sporting an apron, being a homemaker and not an angry pissed off drinking and two fisted smoking one.

Maybe i shared too much, if so i am sorry!

[Martina]

I loved your post, Dee. Didn't quote it all cause that annoys me, but wanted to cheerlead outside of the thanking feature.

[easygoingfemme]

Originally Posted by JustJo

Piggybacking off of Medusa's post....

I think some of the that is the same for me. I'm not into submission, but I am into service. I like to do things for the people in my life....partly because it makes them feel good, and partly because it makes me feel good.

And, yes, I confess there's a little bit of the superwoman thing too. I have prided myself on always supporting myself, working, taking care of my son, maintaining a home, putting myself through school, getting an advanced degree....and still being able to bake from scratch or make my own jam.

My pushy broad peeks in too....and I'm just as liable to be pushing the people in my life to do better, which I'm sure can be rather annoying.

See and that's the cool thing- doing it because you want to and it's who you are. Then it's not a submission. I love providing too, I love giving and smoothing the corners, and knowing just how to take care of someone. But if the dynamic shifted to where I was supposed to do that because of the name behind my role in the relationship, and that it wasn't an option for me if I wasn't feeling it one day...that's when the scale tips.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by JustJo

Piggybacking off of Medusa's post....

I think some of the that is the same for me. I'm not into submission, but I am into service. I like to do things for the people in my life....partly because it makes them feel good, and partly because it makes me feel good.

And, yes, I confess there's a little bit of the superwoman thing too. I have prided myself on always supporting myself, working, taking care of my son, maintaining a home, putting myself through school, getting an advanced degree....and still being able to bake from scratch or make my own jam.

My pushy broad peeks in too....and I'm just as liable to be pushing the people in my life to do better, which I'm sure can be rather annoying.

Medusa and I talked about stuff like this, how it's not submission (unless it is) when I cook and do house stuff I do them because I like to and want to and because they need to be done. They aren't gender specific in my head. YET when I do bring the family their plate, served, I am coming from my very clear cultural space. You soy la Madre the hand that feeds. I'm specific how and who is served I control it. I can do this and connect with my property and extend my Dominant energy without interrupting the flow of what's going on and not making the family uncomfortable. My gestures are particular and then yes, I am the nurturing, sweet perfection of all things Feminine with the small hint of POWER.


That's why the "June" thing doesn't connect because I can never, ever be her no matter how I try race and culturally we are worlds apart.

[*Anya*]

I think that a lot of folks that romanticize the 50's simply never lived in that time and place.

TV aways looks better than reality!

I grew up in the 50's and 60's. What I saw in my home and the home of my friends, never matched TV.

My ex-husband was the oldest of 10. His mom was very traditional and that was what he expected of me. Unfortunately for him, from the get-go, I knew something was wrong with that picture-for me.

The day he told me that my "job" as his wife was to starch and iron all 20 of his dress shirts and hang them color-coordinated in the closet, was the day I said, "Fuck this". I put my baby in the car (had one child then), drove to the library, found the Robin Morgan anthology, Sisterhood is Powerful (hence the bumper sticker later on, on my 1974 Super Beetle); and my consciousness began to be raised.

I started facilitating consciousness raising groups in our living room (oh yeah, he really loved that!). The stories that the older women would tell of their life-long struggles to be the perfect wives and mothers of the 40's and 50's were heartbreaking. The problem with perfect is that it is unattainable!

I used my dog-eared NOW CR booklet each week and each week watched those women grow into stronger, more self-assured women, developing confidence in themselves and a life outside of the home. They began to accept that they could never achieve Donna Reed or June Cleaver.

As they gained confidence, so did I.

I believe that choosing a life, is very different than having one thrust upon you or being told that you "should" live a certain way.

June Cleaver really does not exist.

She was a Hollywood writer's creation.

We are flesh and blood women. Very human and far from perfect.

PS: I never did starch and iron those shirts, nor were the hung up color-coordinated.

I took them to the dry cleaner's.

[*Anya*]

My fat finger slipped on my iPhone. That blue question mark below was an accident

[easygoingfemme]

Coming back with one more... and I'll probably be back again...

Part of the journey in my figuring it out too has been figuring out how to accept from a butch. Things like, well no shit, of course I can open that door. I could install it too. But you are opening it for me because it's part of who you are and it makes you feel good and that makes me feel good too. It's the flip side of my smoothing the collar and slipping the love note in the lunch box. This moves far beyond the opening of the door scenario of course- and I think it's an important part in not just figuring out how we give as femmes, but also how we receive without it falling into a possible preconceived notion or media fed role model.

[Beloved]

The best part of the 50's were the pin-ups.

[*Anya*]

Originally Posted by Beloved

The best part of the 50's were the pin-ups.

Yes! Yes! I totally agree!

I loved how voluptuous they were! Yum

[Ginger]

June Cleaver is a symbol of approved feminine expression within the dominant culture of mid-20th century North America. I think she was also a conduit for consumerism, as she was all about using household products that represented progress at that time, and technological advancement. Wrapped in all that responsibility, though, she has her ways of being independent, of seeing through bullshit, of being the voice of reason in her family.

I met Barbara Billingsley on a cruise when I was an advertising copywriter in L.A. a long time ago (the cruise line was my client). She hugged me as soon as we were introduced. I think she was so used to being hugged by women, she just went there automatically. She assumes she is beloved. And I think she is beloved, and her authority is admired by women because they intuit how she, her character, balances out the dehumanizing sexism of the time.

I mean, listen to that voice. When you hear her in person, it's even more gravelly and deep and oddly melodic.

[The_Lady_Snow]

3. Is this part of your kink?



No, but I can't say I wouldn't role play "kept woman"








4. Is it edge play for you if kink is involved?


I would see this as edge play if it the two participants were pushing/exploring boundaries they never have.






5. Is it a power dynamic?




I think it can be, in my personal dynamic I would not be like the stereotypical June because well I happen to like being the oppressor not the oppressed. When I speak of this I am talking about consensual power dynamic exchanges.




5. Does it get your juices flowing?


Pearls do, I believe this is my objectifier compartment there's something about pearls....

[Martina]

I think what is different about the oppression of women in the fifties and now is that it was sold to us as the norm, as the way to be a real woman, and we believed it. When we didn't believe it, there were sanctions to enforce it, including violence. There are many women still who lack power in their relationships and who suffer because of that. When patriarchal ideology is is used to justify these conditions, as it sometimes is among conservative religious folk, it becomes that much harder for women to realize that they are being ill-treated, to find allies, and to get out.

The conservative women who live these lives and love it -- and there are a lot of them -- I say you are lucky. Lucky that it worked out for you. If you had gotten the wrong husband or perhaps had been very poor, what hell might it have been for you? I hope they think about that the next time they teach in Sunday School that women should obey their husbands.

Women really lacking power and being oppressed -- that's nothing I support in any way. Pretending to lack power in that and even more sickening scenarios -- I am up for that. I like much more twisted shit than that. (not sharing).

As for people who live something that LOOKS like a traditional hierarchical arrangement but isn't, good for you. Have at it. I mean, who cares? I don't see any group of lesbians or feminists criticizing women for choosing whatever kind of arrangements. I think for most, the operative word would be "choose." There may be a few, but it's no one's public agenda to tell folks how to relate to their partners. Feminists are too busy trying to make sure unfunded battered women's shelters stay open and busy trying to protect abortion rights.

The Martha Stewart phenomenon is, I think, bad and good. Seventies feminism was about claiming the public sphere for women. The eighties conservative reaction -- Izod and proms and Martha Stewart -- was, in part, a backlash, but in part a reclaiming of the things we liked about the world before feminism, including homemaking. Martha is more popular among working class women who don't have the time or resources to do what she does or live as she does than she ever was with upper middle class women. It's a fantasy. It's not a bad one if you don't take it too seriously. It's not just about being all things to all people, knowing everything, doing everything well. It's about pleasure and self-care. It's also about one's relationship to consumerism. Do you make it yourself or buy it? If you buy it, what are you buying? Where are you getting it from? For some people, it's a political issue, for some it's about the quality of the experience. More and more, it's about both.

The recession has resulted in more focus on the home. It's cheaper to be home than go out. And so many people have lost their homes that I think we appreciate them more. Figuring out one's relationship to the home and homemaking is not easy.

Re June Cleaver, I would do her. I would lift that shirt dress over her head and . . . .

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Martina

Re June Cleaver, I would do her. I would lift that shirt dress over her head and . . . .

OMGAY!

I so wanted to go there, but I was attempting to be a tiny bit conservative. HA!!! I love it.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

OMGAY!

I so wanted to go there, but I was attempting to be a tiny bit conservative. HA!!! I love it.

Seriously, she could be a sports dyke.