June Cleaver : Femme Friend or Femme Foe

[princessbelle]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

I agree Belle but it does bug me when straight people say they are femme or queer. I guess I feel that way because my road to claiming queer and femme came with a lot of loss and grief and I feel like I fought to be seen as who and what I am today. I don't quite understand why a straight person would identify tha way except to be even more than an ally? It does make me cranky though!

I get this i do!!! I believe your thoughts are the majority opinion on that. I don't know why i don't feel that way to be honest. I just feel that anyone (that means anyone) has the right to ID anyway they want to.

It doesn't bother me about straight people doing that either. Maybe i should examine the "why" it doesn't bother me a little more. I guess for one thing i've never ran into that. Most of my friends when i say i am a femme, they don't have a clue what i'm talking about. LOL.

Anyway, good discussion.

[Julie]

Originally Posted by princessbelle

I get this i do!!! I believe your thoughts are the majority opinion on that. I don't know why i don't feel that way to be honest. I just feel that anyone (that means anyone) has the right to ID anyway they want to.

It doesn't bother me about straight people doing that either. Maybe i should examine the "why" it doesn't bother me a little more. I guess for one thing i've never ran into that. Most of my friends when i say i am a femme, they don't have a clue what i'm talking about. LOL.

Anyway, good discussion.

It bothers me if I hear a straight woman refer to herself as Femme. For me, Femme is part of my queer identity. There is no place in the world for me, for a straight woman while living her visible life filled with privilege to refer to herself as Femme.

Julie

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Julie

It bothers me if I hear a straight woman refer to herself as Femme. For me, Femme is part of my queer identity. There is no place in the world for me, for a straight woman while living her visible life filled with privilege to refer to herself as Femme.

Julie

I have straight girlfriends, who are female bodied we are worlds apart when it comes to how we live our lives. Kelly doesn't have to endure the questioning I do if I do come out as Femme at work. Kelly doesn't feel out of place at the Buffalo Wings during a game. Kelly and her whomever she dates can hold hands and kiss (peck) on the lips and people aren't going to be like WHAT!


As soon as I open my mouth and speak my queer identity is known because of the way I speak on certain subject manners and how I address them.

[princessbelle]

Wow that's some great points!!!

I think maybe that is why i feel the way i do about femme being used by anyone who claims it, because, like Nat, i lived a straight life with a bio man. Didn't change who i was on the inside. I knew i was gay, didn't know the term femme at the time. Did people have the right to tell me i wasn't gay? I may not have been living a gay life, but that didn't change who i was or how i felt on the inside.

I guess my point is, if we put femme into a box of what it can "only" be.... Isn't that limiting? Isn't that forming a certain type of hierarchy? And if we agree that femme does not mean you have to dress or ____ (insert descriptive), doesn't it also mean that ANYONE can claim that identity? If that is what you feel in your heart? Or is the line drawn at being straight? Or living a straight life?

I'm talking in seriousness here. Not someone making fun or poking at us. I mean if a straight women says "im a femme" how can i tell her, no you aren't. Ya know?

Still trying to sort this out...

[Nat]

I know this is meandering off the subject of June Cleaver, but I see this as a way in which femmes do not have privilege - if a butch were with a man and claimed to be queer nobody would resent it.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by princessbelle

Wow that's some great points!!!

I think maybe that is why i feel the way i do about femme being used by anyone who claims it, because, like Nat, i lived a straight life with a bio man. Didn't change who i was on the inside. I knew i was gay, didn't know the term femme at the time. Did people have the right to tell me i wasn't gay? I may not have been living a gay life, but that didn't change who i was or how i felt on the inside.

I guess my point is, if we put femme into a box of what it can "only" be.... Isn't that limiting? Isn't that forming a certain type of hierarchy? And if we agree that femme does not mean you have to dress or ____ (insert descriptive), doesn't it also mean that ANYONE can claim that identity? If that is what you feel in your heart? Or is the line drawn at being straight? Or living a straight life?

I'm talking in seriousness here. Not someone making fun or poking at us. I mean if a straight women says "im a femme" how can i tell her, no you aren't. Ya know?

Still trying to sort this out...

I don't deny who she is, the likely hood of a heteronormative Femme and I kickin it won't happen, sure we'll hang out once in awhile but it's not the same it truly isn't and I love love my hetero friends but it's not the same... I am coming from a Gender perspective and no hetero woman is going to view her gender as I do


We'll have a very different kind of relationship than I do with Julie (of the New York Julies)

[The_Lady_Snow]

It's like the Femme Swap, my friend Kelly doesn't get it why it's so defining.


Erika does.....

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I don't deny who she is, the likely hood of a heteronormative Femme and I kickin it won't happen, I am coming from a Gender perspective and no hetero woman is going to view her gender as I do


We'll have a very different kind of relationship than I do with Julie (of the New York Julies)

Yes I agree so much with this. The relationships I have with femmes are very different than the relationships I have with straight women. That was quite a revelation to me!

[princessbelle]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

Yes I agree so much with this. The relationships I have with femmes are very different than the relationships I have with straight women. That was quite a revelation to me!

Agree agree agree. There is something about having femme sisters and friends that is just heaven on earth.

Can't put my finger on it, but it is real and it is amazing and wow is it beautiful.

Seriously, we are so blessed to have each other. The femme swap comes to mind. So many different personalities but wow the love and the feeling of being there.

It's like no feeling i've ever felt or even came close to feeling.

[Julie]

Originally Posted by princessbelle

Wow that's some great points!!!

I think maybe that is why i feel the way i do about femme being used by anyone who claims it, because, like Nat, i lived a straight life with a bio man. Didn't change who i was on the inside. I knew i was gay, didn't know the term femme at the time. Did people have the right to tell me i wasn't gay? I may not have been living a gay life, but that didn't change who i was or how i felt on the inside.

I guess my point is, if we put femme into a box of what it can "only" be.... Isn't that limiting? Isn't that forming a certain type of hierarchy? And if we agree that femme does not mean you have to dress or ____ (insert descriptive), doesn't it also mean that ANYONE can claim that identity? If that is what you feel in your heart? Or is the line drawn at being straight? Or living a straight life?

I'm talking in seriousness here. Not someone making fun or poking at us. I mean if a straight women says "im a femme" how can i tell her, no you aren't. Ya know?

Still trying to sort this out...

Femme is an identifying descriptor in our queer community.
Femme is part of our history. It dates back in time and it is how we connected.
If you hand over Femme and say it's okay/accept for anybody to use this.
Then in reality you are erasing our history.
Without our history and the Femme's and Butches who have come before us - then you are erasing me, as I am Femme, it is who I am and it is my identity. It has no place in the straight community.

Julie

EDITED TO SAY: You can say to the straight woman who identifies as straight - Our history. Tell her. Be honest. If you do not know our history, then please read as much as you can about it, and perhaps you will not see it as being placed in a box - but an honor to be surrounded and loved as a Femme by and for your Femme sisters.

[julieisafemme]

This is the best conversation I have had in a long time! Thank you all so much.

I am young in lesbian years having only come out 5 years ago. That could be why I bristle at others using femme. I don't have a problem with a gay man or a Transman or even a butch bringing femme into their identity. Maybe that is because they are still queer. I feel sometimes that straight people use queer or femme because it is "cool" and they want to have some of that coolness. They want to say "hey I'm like you too!"

I totally agree with you Nat about not wanting to put a questioning person on the outside or negating their process. My experience was very similar to yours. But I did not know the first thing about being queer, femme or lesbian when I was in that questioning phase. I had to experience it first hand before I felt I could speak to it or identify myself as any of those things. It goes a lot deeper to me than just using the words.

[girl_dee]

When i think of the evolvement of women's roles in the home and society regarding television i not only think of June Cleaver.

Bewitched ~ Samantha was a stay at home mom. Soon as Darren walked in she fixed him a *double*. She was allowed to pop in at the office but usually just for a visit.

The Honeymooners ~ i absolutely loved this show, but poor Alice. All hell broke loose because when Ralph got laid off, she went and got a job. And as was brought up in another thread *Bang zoom*.. with a fist in her face. You never saw Alice threaten to Bang Zoom Ralphieboy.

Ozzie and Harriet ~ i only saw the reruns but Harriet Nelson was just like June Cleaver i think.

Dick Van Dyke ~ Same as above

I Love Lucy ~ Lucy of course wanted to be in the show
(Another sign of the times, Lucy was the first woman to be shown pregnant on TV, and the word pregnant was not allowed. She was shunned for years for being in a *mixed marriage*. )

There were so many more back then..

Then we progressed

The Flintsones ~ modeled after the Honeymooners, even in cartoon land the wives were opressed.

That Girl ~ Marlo Thomas as a female lead

Mary Tyler Moore ~ A woman working in an office.. i LOVED her.

and the list goes on.



My point is that unfortunately June was not an unusual character for Hollywood and as kids it's all we had.

i wonder what the kids of today will have to say in 50 years?

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Cajun_dee

When i think of the evolvement of women's roles in the home and society regarding television i not only think of June Cleaver.

Bewitched ~ Samantha was a stay at home mom. Soon as Darren walked in she fixed him a *double*. She was allowed to pop in at the office but usually just for a visit.

The Honeymooners ~ i absolutely loved this show, but poor Alice. All hell broke loose because when Ralph got laid off, she went and got a job. And as was brought up in another thread *Bang zoom*.. with a fist in her face. You never saw Alice threaten to Bang Zoom Ralphieboy.

Ozzie and Harriet ~ i only saw the reruns but Harriet Nelson was just like June Cleaver i think.

Dick Van Dyke ~ Same as above

I Love Lucy ~ Lucy of course wanted to be in the show
(Another sign of the times, Lucy was the first woman to be shown pregnant on TV, and the word pregnant was not allowed. She was shunned for years for being in a *mixed marriage*. )

There were so many more back then..

Then we progressed

The Flintsones ~ modeled after the Honeymooners, even in cartoon land the wives were opressed.

That Girl ~ Marlo Thomas as a female lead

Mary Tyler Moore ~ A woman working in an office.. i LOVED her.

and the list goes on.



My point is that unfortunately June was not an unusual character for Hollywood and as kids it's all we had.

i wonder what the kids of today will have to say in 50 years?

Claire Huxtable

Murphy Brown

Roseanne

Anne Romano

Kate & Allie

Cate Hennessey

Ellen Degeneres

Oprah Winfrey



We still do not see any of these women being upheld and used as comparisons when it comes to Femme.

[JustJo]

On straight women claiming Femme...

Like julieisafemme, I was very late coming out....as in a handful of years ago...and I spent a long time squashing down any self-knowledge about myself and my sexuality, refusing to look at what was missing. Once I finally figured it out, it was an incredibly freeing feeling....to be able to have a word for that part of who I am.

So...I don't want to share "femme" with straight women. I feel like they have plenty of other words they can use to describe themselves without co-opting ours.

That's really the only limit for me. I don't think femmes need to partner with butches, or anyone, to be femme. I have no problem with gay men claiming femme. For me, femme is a queer thing.

I get that maybe straight women admire something that we have or are, and want to claim femme...but that would be like me saying I admire Lady Snow and want to be like her...and claim Latina. It just doesn't work like that in my head.

Loving this conversation

[aishah]

Originally Posted by JustJo

On straight women claiming Femme...

Like julieisafemme, I was very late coming out....as in a handful of years ago...and I spent a long time squashing down any self-knowledge about myself and my sexuality, refusing to look at what was missing. Once I finally figured it out, it was an incredibly freeing feeling....to be able to have a word for that part of who I am.

So...I don't want to share "femme" with straight women. I feel like they have plenty of other words they can use to describe themselves without co-opting ours.

That's really the only limit for me. I don't think femmes need to partner with butches, or anyone, to be femme. I have no problem with gay men claiming femme. For me, femme is a queer thing.

I get that maybe straight women admire something that we have or are, and want to claim femme...but that would be like me saying I admire Lady Snow and want to be like her...and claim Latina. It just doesn't work like that in my head.

Loving this conversation

i pretty much agree with this. but i tend to defer to people's self-identifications, so i don't think i'd ever say to someone YOU cannot claim femme...but if somebody asks me, that's my view on it. to me, femme is by definition queer (whether it's a queer man or woman claiming that id). and to me it is my gender. and i do believe one can be femme and in a relationship that looks straight. or in a relationship with a straight man. that doesn't necessarily make a femme less queer.

the thing that REALLY bothers me, way more than straight women claiming femme, is when other queer people (especially butches and transguys) identify straight women as femmes. my partner and i had a conversation about this because his roommate is a straight woman and she's sweet and we get along well but he's like "y'all femmes like to talk so much" and i'm like she is NOT a femme. she doesn't id as femme. she's a feminine straight (very heteronormative) woman. to me there is a world of difference. same for feminine lesbians who don't id as femme. one of the things that came up with me and my partner is his ex is a feminine lesbian who is adamantly NOT femme...and he definitely has pointed that out...and i am like, well, how can you turn around and start labeling all these straight women who definitely don't id as femme, as femme?

i can't explain why that bugs me so much, but it does. maybe it's the way it feels like it contributes to further making us invisible and erasing us. maybe it's just that i like being a special snowflake.

[girl_dee]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Claire Huxtable

Murphy Brown

Roseanne

Anne Romano

Kate & Allie

Cate Hennessey

Ellen Degeneres

Oprah Winfrey



We still do not see any of these women being upheld and used as comparisons when it comes to Femme.

No we sure don't. i personally don't resonate with any of them, although at one time i may have.

Maybe because June was the absolute epitome of what men felt and do still feel women should act/look/smell/behave like, she is easily thrown out there as a comparison to us.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Cajun_dee

No we sure don't. i personally don't resonate with any of them, although at one time i may have.

Maybe because June was the absolute epitome of what men felt and do still feel women should act/look/smell/behave like, she is easily thrown out there as a comparison to us.

Right and that right there drives me batty when we get broad stroked into that kind of thinking....

There is no all powerful grand poobah of Femme.... We all do Femme different.

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by princessbelle

I get this i do!!! I believe your thoughts are the majority opinion on that. I don't know why i don't feel that way to be honest. I just feel that anyone (that means anyone) has the right to ID anyway they want to.

It doesn't bother me about straight people doing that either. Maybe i should examine the "why" it doesn't bother me a little more. I guess for one thing i've never ran into that. Most of my friends when i say i am a femme, they don't have a clue what i'm talking about. LOL.

Anyway, good discussion.

Well we live in groovy land so young people here seem to push the boundaries of definitions on any number of things. In some ways I guess it means that the othering of queers is less with young people. But to me it is even more othering to say that there is no distinction between us. I don't feel accepted by that. I feel discounted.

[princessbelle]

Makes perfect sense..

I guess i've never encountered that. I would probably have a different view point.

Actually, never gave it much thought at all.

I live a very sheltered, straight cultured, life down here in Tennessee. No body ever says femme, besides me.

I'll have to think on that some more....

[Nomad]

piggybacking off of the processing about straight women using the word "femme" as part of their identity --- i've heard other people use this word to describe themselves too. can a particular word actually "belong to" (for lack of a better descriptor) a particular group of people? i dont think it can in 95% of the cases. i know a solid handful of gay men who use the word "femme" to describe themselves. i know a straight man who uses the word to describe himself. i knew a transguy in Seattle that used the word "femme" to describe himself.

can we be perschnickity about this sort of thing? arent people's ID words theirs to choose? i bring it up, despite not knowing exactly where i stand on the idea because i'm still shuffling the info, because recently someone told me that i wasnt who i described myself to be. i called myself something, i cant remember what, something like blah blah blah stonefemme blah blah blah and the person i was talking to sort of laughed and said "oh Nomad, you're not a stone femme." (as if SHE would know!) i felt like she was negating my definition of myself and i dont know anyone who has the right to do that. so maybe that's where my curiosity-questioning-processing comes from, even though the two arent necessarily related.

and i hope this isnt derailing the thread because i dont want to do that.

(just trying to sort it all out)