June Cleaver : Femme Friend or Femme Foe

[The_Lady_Snow]

I've been thinking about this a lot, I was wondering. How do we (Femmes) stop, handle, fight against the June Cleaver comparison? How do we stop it from happening within our own community?

(What I mean by this, when someone references the "Cleaver" way being the right way, the superior way)


How does that affect you internally as a Femme?


Does it hurt your feelings? Do you get defensive?


Curious.


(I am not talking about those who choose the dynamics and enjoy being caregivers, caretakers, stay at home wives etc)

[Chancie]

Nomad, I don't have the extra long post gene, so my responses can seem terse, but I def don't mean to be curt.

For me, using 'June Cleaver' as a gender marker is the whole problem, not the desire to cook, or iron, or be an excellent homemaker. She represents a female persona and an era that was terrible for a lot of people, whether or not we choose to ignore history and context.

[Chancie]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I've been thinking about this a lot, I was wondering. How do we (Femmes) stop, handle, fight against the June Cleaver comparison? How do we stop it from happening within our own community?

(What I mean by this, when someone references the "Cleaver" way being the right way, the superior way)

How does that affect you internally as a Femme?

Does it hurt your feelings? Do you get defensive?

Curious.

(I am not talking about those who choose the dynamics and enjoy being caregivers, caretakers, stay at home wives etc)

Because I do like to take care of and fuss over Pete, and because I like to be the girl who bought the best present for a little girl, and because I like to bring the best treats to pot lucks, not because I am a femme, but because I am ChanciePants, I feel silenced and alienated when other femmes say they aspire to being, not modern but old fashioned June Cleavers. I think, Oh, very nice if you're pretty, thin, middle class and white, and not a feminist. I feel like they aggressively choose to dismiss feminism and women's rights.

[princessbelle]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I've been thinking about this a lot, I was wondering. How do we (Femmes) stop, handle, fight against the June Cleaver comparison? How do we stop it from happening within our own community?
(What I mean by this, when someone references the "Cleaver" way being the right way, the superior way)

I suppose just keep fighting it. Call it out when we see it over and over and over.

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

How does that affect you internally as a Femme?


Does it hurt your feelings? Do you get defensive?


Curious.


(I am not talking about those who choose the dynamics and enjoy being caregivers, caretakers, stay at home wives etc)

That's interesting because after thinking about it, i do both...

When i hear it from the femme folks, it makes me feel sad and sorta hurts my feelers i guess. I want to reach out and find out how anyone could think this era of time could be a good thing. It boggles my mind.

But, i'll be completely honest here, when i hear it from masculine folk? I get VERY defensive....and i don't really know why i feel this way...I want to scream, levitate, spew green fluid from my nostrils and bite the head off of a bat.

Not sure why it spurs different feelings depending on who i hear it from. I'll have to think on that.

[Julie]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I've been thinking about this a lot, I was wondering. How do we (Femmes) stop, handle, fight against the June Cleaver comparison? How do we stop it from happening within our own community?

I do not believe it is our right to STOP anyone from professing their desires (June or Not) or living their lives. I think it is important that we as Femme's talk about this. I remember when my kids were little. I was open with them and I asked Peter (pediatrician) how much information can I give them. And he said... Give them everything, they will absorb what they can handle and in the hand, be healthier adults. I think the same is true for us as adults. If we keep on talking about it - Then we will open the eyes of some and they will in turn do the same. It only can have a positive effect.

(What I mean by this, when someone references the "Cleaver" way being the right way, the superior way)

My initial reaction is to get defensive and chew them up. That is how I react to most things. I am trying to find a different way (this time around on the planet).

How does that affect you internally as a Femme?

It doesn't affect me as a Femme. I worry that it will affect younger Femme's and perhaps fill them with shame on how they live their lives. So, I as a Femme choose to educate.

Does it hurt your feelings? Do you get defensive?

No, it just makes me sad for those who believe their self worth is to serve (not kink) and encourage and empower the thought of a patriarchy.


Curious.

(I am not talking about those who choose the dynamics and enjoy being caregivers, caretakers, stay at home wives etc)

I just wish we could be kinder and not so condescending to those around us and receive the same. All this creates is shame.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I've been thinking about this a lot, I was wondering. How do we (Femmes) stop, handle, fight against the June Cleaver comparison?

I think correction and insisting that comparing a group of people to one person, a character will work, it may be hard work but it will work. I also believe we can be more understanding and supportiveto desires/kinks/dynamics/choices.


How do we stop it from happening within our own community?


Speaking up, asking for clarification, making sure it's not coming from making it personal space.

(What I mean by this, when someone references the "Cleaver" way being the right way, the superior way)


How does that affect you internally as a Femme?


Sometimes I am like WTF, other times I am like whatever! Depends on the context.


Does it hurt your feelings? Sometimes

Do you get defensive?

I only feel defensive when people are coming from a place of being critical towards others choices, or when people try to hold *ALL* Femmes to a ridiculous standard


Curious.


(I am not talking about those who choose the dynamics and enjoy being caregivers, caretakers, stay at home wives etc)

I also thought about this last night before falling asleep. Service oriented submission isn't a 50's lifestyle it's service. I am coming from my Leather oriented space so when speaking of service nothing binary comes to mind in my thinking. Chores, tasks, markers aren't gender specific. My boys are going to do dishes as are my girls. I'm more like WTF when someone refers to service oriented BDSM/Kink/Leather as something from the 50's.

I hope that makes sense

[girl_dee]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I also thought about this last night before falling asleep. Service oriented submission isn't a 50's lifestyle it's service. I am coming from my Leather oriented space so when speaking of service nothing binary comes to mind in my thinking. Chores, tasks, markers aren't gender specific. My boys are going to do dishes as are my girls. I'm more like WTF when someone refers to service oriented BDSM/Kink/Leather as something from the 50's.

I hope that makes sense

i makes perfect sense to me. When i realized service oriented service was my "thing" not once did i ponder June Cleaver/ the struggles of women in the 50's. my thoughts were that after all these years i can finally have my passion, domestic service to a Master who appreciated me. i was not trying to relive the 50's, it just so happens that some things that i love doing is what women did in the 50's. i also love working at the clinic helping others, and it pays really well, that is equally as satisfying.

it does not feel like kink to me. It feels very natural and fluid. It's just how we live in this household. When i decided to stay on here at the farm, Syr said *the kitchen is yours, do what you want with it*.. it was AWESOME!

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

I've been thinking about this a lot, I was wondering. How do we (Femmes) stop, handle, fight against the June Cleaver comparison? How do we stop it from happening within our own community?

(What I mean by this, when someone references the "Cleaver" way being the right way, the superior way)

I think it has to be called out....but I don't mean by attacking that person's point of view either. I think an awful lot of this is deeply ingrained stuff that people aren't thinking about....just reacting. It's almost like that unconscious knee-jerk reaction.

Someone, and apologies that I can't find who, talked about the thread where butches (and others) post pics of women that they think are hot....and frequently call them "femme" even if they are straight women. They used the comparison of what would happen if femmes went into the thread of hot butches and posted pics of bio-men.

I imagine all hell would break loose.

For me, that's a clear-as-a-bell sign of an internalized double standard....and we need to be pointing that out to people, perhaps by giving them that very example as an illustration.

How does that affect you internally as a Femme?

It really doesn't for me....which sounds weird....but I have a high tolerance for shrugging off bullshit.

Does it hurt your feelings? Do you get defensive?


Mostly, it makes me sad that we haven't made more progress. I remember protesting for passage of the ERA....and I was YOUNG. Now I'm 50....and we're really not that far ahead of where we were then....and have a Republican presidential candidate in a frighteningly close race that would like to push us even farther backwards than I can even imagine.

I know this isn't a political thread....well kinda'.....but I wonder how much internalized hatred must a woman have to vote for Romney/Ryan. And, apologies if anyone on this site is planning to vote that way, but I seriously do wonder how someone can endorse someone that wants to make them a second-class citizen, or worse.Curious.


(I am not talking about those who choose the dynamics and enjoy being caregivers, caretakers, stay at home wives etc)

I found it interesting what you said about the Leather community Snow. I have no experience there, but it resonates with me that service is a very different thing, and not tied to gender.

In my perfect vision of the world, people get to do what they like and what they're good at, regardless of what's between their legs....and there isn't any judgement attached to it.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by JustJo

I found it interesting what you said about the Leather community Snow. I have no experience there, but it resonates with me that service is a very different thing, and not tied to gender.

In my perfect vision of the world, people get to do what they like and what they're good at, regardless of what's between their legs....and there isn't any judgement attached to it.

BAM!!!!


I love that Jo!

[Martina]

Is any of that real content about gender?

• wanting to devote your time and energy to pleasing another
• enjoying domestic chores (if only for the beloved other)
• being available to nurture, support, or instruct

The part that is gender specific other than the clothes is grooving upon the power dynamics embedded in gender. That is kink. Fetish. Whatever you want to call it.

I can get hot because the person I am with is butch. I can get hot because the person I am with has power. I do not conflate the two. It does not get me extra wet BECAUSE a masculine person has power over my more feminine self. Or it has like twice. It's not my kink. But it's a kink. And as such I respect it.

But bringing the conflation of power inequity with gender roles into the world as a "natural" way of relating -- that is sexism. Talking about women's roles and butches or masculine ID'd people's roles as if they are real things. Um no.

I was briefly with someone who had those ideas. We had been friends first and equals. I was shocked when it all came up in D/s. Stupid me. The fact is he no longer respected me as much the minute I went down for him. In his mind, bringing together power exchange with traditional gender roles MEANT disrespecting women. And that is what it has traditionally meant. I have an Egyptian friend who swears no, no, it's separate spheres, and both are respected. To which I say bullshit.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Martina

Is any of that real content about gender?

• wanting to devote your time and energy to pleasing another
• enjoying domestic chores (if only for the beloved other)
• being available to nurture, support, or instruct

The part that is gender specific other than the clothes is grooving upon the power dynamics embedded in gender. That is kink. Fetish. Whatever you want to call it.

I can get hot because the person I am with is butch. I can get hot because the person I am with has power. I do not conflate the two. It does not get me extra wet BECAUSE a masculine person has power over my more feminine self. Or it has like twice. It's not my kink. But it's a kink. And as such I respect it.

But bringing the conflation of power inequity with gender roles into the world as a "natural" way of relating -- that is sexism. Talking about women's roles and butches or masculine ID'd people's roles as if they are real things. Um no.

I was briefly with someone who had those ideas. We had been friends first and equals. I was shocked when it all came up in D/s. Stupid me. The fact is he no longer respected me as much the minute I went down for him. In his mind, bringing together power exchange with traditional gender roles MEANT disrespecting women. And that is what it has traditionally meant. I have an Egyptian friend who swears no, no, it's separate spheres, and both are respected. To which I say bullshit.

Who all here identifies with Femme as their gender?

[girl_dee]

Gender = femme

[aishah]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Who all here identifies with Femme as their gender?

me.

i agree with martina (i think) - the problem isn't the power dynamics. the problem is when gender becomes conflated with the power dynamics. especially when the genders and dynamics reflect wider systems of privilege/oppression.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Femme, though I did not come to adopt this until I was say like 29, I had a real hard time with it at first because deep down I knew I was. I still love my marker *Dyke* I am very proud of that identifier.


Femme felt very comfortable and it has a wondeful skin to grow into in my later age. If I could change my marker on my license it would be Womyn.

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by aishah

me.

i agree with martina (i think) - the problem isn't the power dynamics. the problem is when gender becomes conflated with the power dynamics. especially when the genders and dynamics reflect wider systems of privilege/oppression.

I often forget about how others define gender and gender roles once I step out of my hoola hoop (ArweNism).

So the dynamics for me still stay the same.


I'm the boss.

I do love to do laundry, I have only one man cub left and it's nicer to only have him. I don't miss the older cubs because well they are grown. So when tantalizing spoke of Ms Cleaver in the mother hood role I was like, HEY I GET THAT!

It was interesting cause I got a lil giddy, connecting with her in that way. I loved loved loved being a Momma. Though in my house it was a Latino run house so the dynamics between the kids and I though very maternal and detail oriented (like Ms Cleaver) it was like I knew or had an example of when it came to Momma's.

So that got me to thinking how now as I am older, house stuff I no likey so much.

I will assist the boy, but it's different it's relaxing it's not so time consuming and I get to be the bad Momma and make Kraft Mac and cheese and the boy makes home made (fill in the blank).


I don't feel less than now, not like I did in my mid 20's. I believe it's the work I do and continue to do on me. OMG do I need a lot with all my RAWR RAWR RAWR and passion for things.

I can say when I am spoken to like I am stoopid or I am head patted it makes me boil, it's almost like wow where am I and it makes me laugh.


Thanks tantalizing for reminding me about the Momma part, that really got me to thinking a lot about gender *performance* and how only girls/women do dishes and boys/men work on cars.

I am glad I know about both.

[pinkgeek]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Who all here identifies with Femme as their gender?

I consider femme a part of my gender, but I balk against any one word encompassing me. I also don't care for boxes and labels which is what I feel like I get stuffed into when asked about my gender, presentation, etc. Maybe I'll go for fierce as my gender - that slides better under my skin.

[girl_dee]

Originally Posted by pinkgeek

I consider femme a part of my gender, but I balk against any one word encompassing me. I also don't care for boxes and labels which is what I feel like I get stuffed into when asked about my gender, presentation, etc. Maybe I'll go for fierce as my gender - that slides better under my skin.

i didn't realize it but i feel this way too.

i am just protective of my femme label.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by The_Lady_Snow

Who all here identifies with Femme as their gender?

Not me....maybe it's coming out super late, but I still think of woman/female as my gender.

For me, gender has nothing to do with who I love or have sex with, or even how I live. For me, it's literally anatomical. I totally get that that's not the case for many people here....and that's all good in my book.

Femme, for me, is more about my sexuality.

[Sachita]

Originally Posted by Martina

Is any of that real content about gender?

• wanting to devote your time and energy to pleasing another
• enjoying domestic chores (if only for the beloved other)
• being available to nurture, support, or instruct

The part that is gender specific other than the clothes is grooving upon the power dynamics embedded in gender. That is kink. Fetish. Whatever you want to call it.

I can get hot because the person I am with is butch. I can get hot because the person I am with has power. I do not conflate the two. It does not get me extra wet BECAUSE a masculine person has power over my more feminine self. Or it has like twice. It's not my kink. But it's a kink. And as such I respect it.

But bringing the conflation of power inequity with gender roles into the world as a "natural" way of relating -- that is sexism. Talking about women's roles and butches or masculine ID'd people's roles as if they are real things. Um no.

I was briefly with someone who had those ideas. We had been friends first and equals. I was shocked when it all came up in D/s. Stupid me. The fact is he no longer respected me as much the minute I went down for him. In his mind, bringing together power exchange with traditional gender roles MEANT disrespecting women. And that is what it has traditionally meant. I have an Egyptian friend who swears no, no, it's separate spheres, and both are respected. To which I say bullshit.

great post Martina.

You know I felt conflicted most of my life because I didn't fall into any traditional roles- not ever. I had one aunt that was typical June Cleaver type and waited on her family hand and foot. She took great pride in this. Another aunt was a go-go dancer that wore sequined bikini's and fishnet stockings and danced in a hanging cage. She had lots of boyfriends who bought her gifts, cleaned her house and treated her like a Queen. I wanted to be her but when I heard my mom and other family members gossip about her it made me feel stupid. I wanted to be a go-go queen. I didn;t want to cook and clean for a bunch of people who never reciprocated.

In school there were too many times when I heard, "You'll marry a nice man and he'll take care of you." or "Its just as easy to fall in love with a rich man then a poor man." such stupid bullshit. I didn't want anything to do with any of it.

So at a very young age I made my own money and people did things for me. If you wanted to date me you knew this about me and if you didn't like it I showed you the road. Later I tapped into femdom and things became more serious. I was much happier but I still had to deal with too much judgement about how my way of living wasn't normal. That I couldn't treat people like that and that women didn't act like I was. Meanwhile they lined up to serve me.

I spent way too many years with people trying to shove that great white lie down my throat. I admit that when I see a woman so dialed into that I question if she's really happy or trapped. I know its stupid and one sided because I expect that from someone else. I personally would love a butch wearing an apron and baking me cookies. Life would be perfect.

oh wait if I think about it I'd really like a June Cleaver sub femme wearing a cute little dress, cooking, cleaning and waiting on my hand and foot. It would bring out my masculine energy and I'd have to throw her down and fuck her. Damn I'm so sexist! lol

[The_Lady_Snow]

Originally Posted by Sachita

great post Martina.

You know I felt conflicted most of my life because I didn't fall into any traditional roles- not ever. I had one aunt that was typical June Cleaver type and waited on her family hand and foot. She took great pride in this. Another aunt was a go-go dancer that wore sequined bikini's and fishnet stockings and danced in a hanging cage. She had lots of boyfriends who bought her gifts, cleaned her house and treated her like a Queen. I wanted to be her but when I heard my mom and other family members gossip about her it made me feel stupid. I wanted to be a go-go queen. I didn;t want to cook and clean for a bunch of people who never reciprocated.

In school there were too many times when I heard, "You'll marry a nice man and he'll take care of you." or "Its just as easy to fall in love with a rich man then a poor man." such stupid bullshit. I didn't want anything to do with any of it.

So at a very young age I made my own money and people did things for me. If you wanted to date me you knew this about me and if you didn't like it I showed you the road. Later I tapped into femdom and things became more serious. I was much happier but I still had to deal with too much judgement about how my way of living wasn't normal. That I couldn't treat people like that and that women didn't act like I was. Meanwhile they lined up to serve me.

I spent way too many years with people trying to shove that great white lie down my throat. I admit that when I see a woman so dialed into that I question if she's really happy or trapped. I know its stupid and one sided because I expect that from someone else. I personally would love a butch wearing an apron and baking me cookies. Life would be perfect.

I know I can say this to you and you will not be like oh that fucking Snow here she goes, I know you will hear me.


You gotta let that go, the one sided assumption that if a woman is dialing into domestication or tasks that come to some form of care taking, or care giving they are trapped.

Here's why.


We're Doms if we want, need, expect this from a butch and we expect them to do it we have to release the one sided.

They are woman too (unless they are not) and the masculine appearance may be able to let you forget that but the assumption they are trapped could be made of them as well.

In BDSM/Kink we can't CAN NOT go into it with any kind of ism or gender role expectation, and we must check our isms ALL of them for us to be able to succesfully lead.


The image of a butch in an apron is hot, but I'd be pretty pissed if someone assumed she was doing it because it was forced or entrapment.


In real time we can have these convos with our girls/women/Femmes. Here too so we gotta make sure we aren't bringing that one sided machete especially when trying to attain a subject.

Make sense?