June Cleaver : Femme Friend or Femme Foe

[Martina]

If you are mad at feminism, then be mad at yourselves. The women's movement disappeared because it was reasonably successful. Middle class women completely abandonned the movement and the poor women who especially needed it.

It's our fault there is no women's movement.

[JustJo]

Originally Posted by Martina

If you are mad at feminism, then be mad at yourselves. The women's movement disappeared because it was reasonably successful. Middle class women completely abandonned the movement and the poor women who especially needed it.

It's our fault there is no women's movement.

Unfortunately you are absolutely right. I think it's one of the scummier parts of human nature (of most, not all) to want to take all the help, climb all the ladders to opportunity and success....and then pull those ladders up behind us so no one else can use them.

How many children and grandchildren of immigrants are screaming for us to close our borders? Lots....and it makes me sick. Same thing.

Too often, people "get theirs" and then turn their backs on the people coming up behind them.

Getting on a soapbox here....but I want to slap women of my age who let their young daughters absorb these messages of "what you look like is what you are" and don't say a word, and the media that perpetuates it ad nauseum.

I still contribute to the scholarship fund for low-income women at my alma maters....because college is what pulled my personal fat out of the fire. And I've raised my son to respect women and truly view women (and girls) as equals....not from that "let me help you little lady" place, but on an equal footing. I'm a mentor in my professional life, and my current "mentee" is a young woman...."coincidentally" they all have been....and generally women of color. And, an old habit from the 80s....if I'm standing in the voting booth and I'm faced with a choice I haven't researched enough to have a strong opinion....I choose the female name. Just cuz.

I'm not saying all this to pat myself on the back....I just wish we would all recognize what we can do to further equality...and keep pushing it forward in even small ways.

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by Martina

If you are mad at feminism, then be mad at yourselves. The women's movement disappeared because it was reasonably successful. Middle class women completely abandonned the movement and the poor women who especially needed it.

It's our fault there is no women's movement.

Ok. I can agree that it is our fault. I do not agree that the movement was reasonably successful though. I have felt like Jo too. I did not want to call myself a feminist. I do now. I have worked since I was 18 and have raised my child as a working mom and sometimes I do get sour about the fact that I am supposed to bring home the bacon and fry it and take care of my child. What makes me realize that things weren't so great when my Mom was raising us as a stay at home mom was that she was unhappy and stifled. So going back to that is not a good choice either.

As a mom I think that kids do well when there is a parent at home. Does not matter if it is Dad or Mom. That is the feminist part to me. Balance is about raising a family and having everyone do their part. Mom cannot do it all! That is the message that I felt was given to me growing up. I had to do it all.

The movement was not successful at all for middle class women when the message is that we have to work and take care of the house and take care of the children. There are not a lot of safety nets or social structures in place in this country to help working mothers. That is a problem.

So what is my part and responsibility? One is to realize that the manufactured ideal of a modern woman fed to me by the media is not feminism. That was hard for me to learn! You and Bully and others here on this site helped me figure that out. I thank you for that!

I hope my daughter will be a mom someday. I want to support her in her growth as a woman. I want to tell her that working and raising a family is all doable and I want to help create the social structures that will make that possible.

[JustJo]

This whole Queen Latifah bend in the conversation is interesting to me. First, because I absolutely love her and, second, because although she resonates powerful, confident, badass woman to me....she has never read "butch"....with the exception of the character she played in Set It Off.

I wonder why we want to immediately assign "butch" to women with energy and strength that is traditionally deemed masculine.

I wouldn't say that I have any masculine energy....like zero. I'm not girly-girly, but I've even been surprised when I see myself on video that my gestures and body language are far more traditionally "feminine" than I would have thought.

However, in my work life, I'm in charge of project teams...and frequently what we call "tiger teams" - specialists who are charged with relentlessly hunting down and killing flaws in the design or function of the project. They aren't easy people to coordinate at times....and I am in charge of keeping them all on track, on time, on budget and working together. In my meetings, and in my projects, there is no doubt who is in charge. I speak softly, I am polite....and I am in fucking charge. Overstep my bounds and you (general you) will learn that quickly as you pull back a bloody stump....regardless of the title you wear in the company.

I think it's a fallacy that women have to have any masculine energy at all to be powerful. I also think it's a fallacy that they have to be "bitchy" to be in charge.

I can be soft, feminine, even quiet....and absolutely in charge.

[Martina]

There were rumors that she ID'd as butch in her private life. Who knows?

[girl_dee]

this whole convo has made me realize that i SO equated masculine to butch.

we ALL have masculine energy, some more than others.

i am as femme as they come but sometimes enjoy rolling in some "masculine" energy. At the time i don't feel masculine. i feel like a femme enjoying some non tradtitional femme activity.

like changing the oil in the car.

You'd never see old June Cleaver doing that.

[*Anya*]

To me, regardless of her feminine dress or appearance, the Queen always felt to me as butch.

Of course, it may or may not be how she identifies herself or how anyone else perceives her.

I "feel" butch/masculine energy from women.

As in many things, my perception may not be correct.

I enjoy it when I feel it.

[girl_dee]

but does masculine energy always equal butch?

[spritzerJ]

Originally Posted by girl_dee

this whole convo has made me realize that i SO equated masculine to butch.

we ALL have masculine energy, some more than others.

i am as femme as they come but sometimes enjoy rolling in some "masculine" energy. At the time i don't feel masculine. i feel like a femme enjoying some non tradtitional femme activity.

like changing the oil in the car.

You'd never see old June Cleaver doing that.

The part I bolded is interesting to me.

I am later arriving in my life to the Femme scene. So I am not quite sure how to say what is traditional and non traditional femme in presentation and energy.

I identify as Femme. My dominate presentation in dress/style is Femme. I don't quiet go as far to say my gender is Femme. Because I don't feel like I have a gender and sex. I've been assigned one. I am not opposed to my assigned gender and sex.

My energy is a bit something I do not qualify as masculine or feminine. Sometimes I flow better with those that are presenting as masculine in energy. Sometimes with femmes and the "I don't know what you are talking about I am just a woman" folks. Because to me my energy is just me in the world doing what I do. I may be interpreted as masculine or feminine (or just weird) by others differently at times. And the interpretation of my energy as a type of gender and reacting to me as if I am masculine or feminine drives me batty. It is as if they missed the point.

[Kätzchen]

Originally Posted by JustJo

This whole Queen Latifah bend in the conversation is interesting to me. First, because I absolutely love her and, second, because although she resonates powerful, confident, badass woman to me....she has never read "butch"....with the exception of the character she played in Set It Off.

I wonder why we want to immediately assign "butch" to women with energy and strength that is traditionally deemed masculine.

I wouldn't say that I have any masculine energy....like zero. I'm not girly-girly, but I've even been surprised when I see myself on video that my gestures and body language are far more traditionally "feminine" than I would have thought.

However, in my work life, I'm in charge of project teams...and frequently what we call "tiger teams" - specialists who are charged with relentlessly hunting down and killing flaws in the design or function of the project. They aren't easy people to coordinate at times....and I am in charge of keeping them all on track, on time, on budget and working together. In my meetings, and in my projects, there is no doubt who is in charge. I speak softly, I am polite....and I am in fucking charge. Overstep my bounds and you (general you) will learn that quickly as you pull back a bloody stump....regardless of the title you wear in the company.

I think it's a fallacy that women have to have any masculine energy at all to be powerful. I also think it's a fallacy that they have to be "bitchy" to be in charge.

I can be soft, feminine, even quiet....and absolutely in charge.

My favorite post was Jo's.....

Particularly the ideas I highlighted with bold font in Jo's post.

<<<<<~~ Quiet, reserved, soft, polite, yet absolutely in charge of my own life.

[girl_dee]

Originally Posted by Kätzchen

My favorite post was Jo's.....

Particularly the ideas I highlighted with bold font in Jo's post.

<<<<<~~ Quiet, reserved, soft, polite, yet absolutely in charge of my own life.

OHHH i do like that!