"Stud" versus "Butch"

Originally Posted by Sparkle

Actually 'Stud' is used in the UK, but perhaps not as widely as in the US. In the UK 'Stud' is also an ID that is similar to (but not synonymous with) 'Butch' in that it is used mainly by people who fall masculine of centre on the gender identity spectrum and it is primarily used by people of colour (as far as my experience goes).

This film was featured in the LGBT - BFI London film festival this past year.

Just out of interest, where did you hear it in the UK and did you hear it often?

As I said above, I've never heard it in UK except as an almost perjorative for a big headed cis-guy/butch/genderqueer/trans-guy (apologies if my use of nomenclature is not considered 'standard'.). As a person who ids at genderqueer or that (clunky) phrase, masculine of centre I've never heard it used about myself or anyone like me regardless of colour or culture anywhere in the country...but then I'm a northerner and don't get to the Big cosmopolitan Smoke of London anymore; nor have I heard it in Manchester, Leeds, Birmingham, Edinburgh, Glasgow or Newcastle either I'm not saying it's never used just that it must be a pretty exclusive minority. Maybe it's a south of Watford Gap thang.



ETA Yup, I have to own my clueless white privilege (never heard of such a thing until I joined up here; That's why I read some of the more educative threads here.

[Sparkle]

Originally Posted by Daktari

Just out of interest, where did you hear it in the UK and did you hear it often?

As I said above, I've never heard it in UK except as an almost perjorative for a big headed cis-guy/butch/genderqueer/trans-guy (apologies if my use of nomenclature is not considered 'standard'.). As a person who ids at genderqueer or that (clunky) phrase, masculine of centre I've never heard it used about myself or anyone like me regardless of colour or culture anywhere in the country...but then I'm a northerner and don't get to the Big cosmopolitan Smoke of London anymore; nor have I heard it in Manchester, Leeds, Birmingham, Edinburgh, Glasgow or Newcastle either I'm not saying it's never used just that it must be a pretty exclusive minority. Maybe it's a south of Watford Gap thang.

I knew self-identified Studs and Aggressives when I lived and worked in east and sarf London. Which is not to say there aren't self-identified S/As all over the UK - because I am sure there are. The areas of London I lived, worked and socialized were very culturally diverse and quite queer, and that is probably why it is more familiar to me. As a sweeping generalization, I would say, the majority of people who ID'd as Stud or Aggressive were POC, young-ish (40 and under) & inner-city/urban oriented queers.

But as to your supposition that it is only used by an exclusive minority...hmmmm...I think I would extend that thought and say that I found that gender-related IDs were used by a minority of queers that I knew in the UK, when I lived there. (8years ago now and lots has changed for sure, especially in relation to genderqueer identities.)

I didn't know a lot of queers who claimed Butch/Femme IDs either. There seemed to be an eschewing of "labels" regardless of individuals' gender presentation or desires/personal attractions. I knew a lot of queers who fell soundly to the masculine or feminine side of the gender spectrum but not a whole lot who embraced Butch (as a noun) or Femme (as a noun) IDs.

Perhaps that is why Stud/Aggressive seems a small sub-group to you?

I think there in lies another interesting cultural difference between the US and the UK.

Or perhaps that is where the queer culture in US is moving too, but I'm have a myopic view because of my ID and the places I socialize/find community.

It is my experience in the gay/queer/trans/b/f and kink cultures over here for many, many years (25+yrs) I have never heard anyone label themselves as you suggest. I do understand that some folks where you lived used it which is why I say it's a small minority because it cannot be extrapolated to include the rest of the country. I know we appear a small country to you lot but there is a lot more regional variation than you probably realise, even within the different countries that make up the UK.

However, It is also my long time experience that self empowering labels are anathema to many within the wider 'gay' 'community' but not so much in the pan sexual kink 'community'. It is this that led me on my own path to individual gender expression.

Maybe it's just me turning into a reet old fart and not knowing the yoof lingo anymore.

...and on that non-bombshell, I'll back away, leave you to the discussion and lurk a little to learn. Just please don't speak for the majority of us outside urban inner city London please.

[Sparkle]

Originally Posted by Daktari

...and on that non-bombshell, I'll back away, leave you to the discussion and lurk a little to learn. Just please don't speak for the majority of us outside urban inner city London please.

I wasn't really thinking (and didn't mean to imply) that there is a proliferation of self-ID'd Studs and Aggressives all over Blighty. But I would guess you'd find people who ID like that in Manchester and Glasgow, maybe Brighton, possibly Liverpool... essentially, as you note, in the heavily urban areas where there are larger queer communities and thus more diversity within those communities.

Originally Posted by Sparkle

I wasn't really thinking (and didn't mean to imply) that there is a proliferation of self-ID'd Studs and Aggressives all over Blighty. But I would guess you'd find people who ID like that in Manchester and Glasgow, maybe Brighton, possibly Liverpool... essentially, as you note, in the heavily urban areas where there are larger queer communities and thus more diversity within those communities.

Having spent time in some heavily urban areas, particularly Edinburgh, Manchester, Leeds, N'castle and Brum, but not so much Liverpool or Brighton, I can still assure you I've never heard it there. Maybe I just don't come across those folks on my queer troubadour travels. I really hope one day I do.

I bet ya our very own metrosexual, Ciaran, has heard the term used though; like I say, I'm just a provincial 'hick', albeit a rather eccentric one


...and now I really am gonna try to lurk-n-learn

[Samurai Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Daktari

However, It is also my long time experience that self empowering labels are anathema to many within the wider 'gay' 'community' but not so much in the pan sexual kink 'community'. It is this that led me on my own path to individual gender expression.

I don't quite understand this part. Why would the gay community want to avoid self empowering labels? Aren't we in the business of self-empowering?

[always2late]

Growing up in a multi-cultural area of Brooklyn, I heard the term "papi" used, but it was primarily used in a straight setting. I'd also heard the term "stud"...again primarily in straight discourse. I never heard the terms "stud" "aggressive" or "papi" used in the LGBT context until I joined the LGBT club at my college. From my own experience, I found this to be more an issue of age than of diversity. I live, and work, in a very diverse community, however, it wasn't until I spent time with the 20-something age group that I heard the terms used frequently. Now...I'm not saying that the terms weren't, or haven't, been used in a cultural context for many years..just that I'd never heard them. I will say that, when I joined the club at my college, it made my heart sing to hear young butches, studs, aggressives, and every other self-identifier used with such freedom and pride! It has, and still does, make my heart leap a bit when I see the younger generation...those coming after me...embrace who they are with whatever ID they choose so freely and with such an unabashed sense of self. I admire them, I cheer for them, I support them...and I love them all.

Originally Posted by Samurai Wanderer

I don't quite understand this part. Why would the gay community want to avoid self empowering labels? Aren't we in the business of self-empowering?

Yes 'we' are.
However I find that in the wider 'gay community' I encounter here in UK, including many of my 'gay' friends, folks don't use the labels we embrace here in the b/f world. Mostly I find the attitude to be "I'm just me, I don't need labels". I have observed that those who embrace labels are those who don't 'fit', into the wider gay 'community'.

It is my experience that most folks I come into contact with, homo or hetero, don't understand the need for self empowering, self identifying labels...until a patient person explains the need.

[Samurai Wanderer]

Originally Posted by Daktari

Yes 'we' are.
However I find that in the wider 'gay community' I encounter here in UK, including many of my 'gay' friends, folks don't use the labels we embrace here in the b/f world. Mostly I find the attitude to be "I'm just me, I don't need labels". I have observed that those who embrace labels are those who don't 'fit', into the wider gay 'community'.

It is my experience that most folks I come into contact with, homo or hetero, don't understand the need for self empowering, self identifying labels...until a patient person explains the need.

It's been overwhelming to sift through and keep up with the labels, I had given up. After finding this community, it feels that for once, there are labels that I might be able to identify with. Thank you for explaining, I've never thought of labels as self-empowering, yet I'm beginning to feel it even if I can't explain why.