Third or Other Gender Butch

AtLast · 03-22-2010, 02:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darth Denkay

I've been reading this thread from its inception, but as seems to generally be the case, I don't have the time to actually respond much to threads. I have been thinking a good deal though as many of you have shared your thoughts.

Third or Other Gender butch

I haven't ever used either term. I've always used trans butch. For a while now though, it hasn't felt quite right. I've used it to denote that I don't feel like a man or a woman, but instead someone distinct. However, it seems as though that term carries with it some expectation - in this community at least - of feeling 'male'. I don't. I feel masculine, which to me doesn't equate to being either male or a man.

My body is female. I'm reasonably comfortable with it, except that I want at least a major reduction (I'd prefer a complete double mastectomy but don't know if I could get that). I am fairly large chested. I wear frog bras which do a decent job of flattening and tend to wear shirts that don't fit snugly. I tend to pass, at least at first. I think I'm read as male by anyone who looks briefly, and those that look a bit more closely it seems to be a toss-up.

I also pack. It feels right. Flattening my chest and packing allows me to experience much more connection with my body than when I don't.

Now, back to the terms in question. I've been mulling them over quite a lot, and find mixed thoughts regarding them. On the one hand, third or other both indicate that I am neither male or female which trans does not. On the other hand, they still don't allow us to really identify what our gender, at least in general looks like. Other tells us not man or woman, but doesn't give any additional information. It also lumps everyone who doesn't identify as male or female in one group, and the reality is there are probably many gender sub-groups within that population. Similarly, 'third' only means not male or female, although it does imply that there are potentially many gender categories (third, fourth, fifth, and so on).

Reading through this thread, it appears that the butches who have posted could make up a gender category - enough similarities to define us. However, we're still left with no descriptor that gives any additional information about our gender.

I think I'm going to start using 'third gender'. It feels more right than 'trans' and I like it more than 'other'. We're always going to be limited by language in terms of identifying our gender, but third gender at least distinguishes completely from man and woman.

Great thread!

I find this to be true, as well. finally, I feel like we are getting somewhere! Being female-bodied, yet, masculine, not TG or Intergendered and butch is not easy!! I do claim female, but as I stated, it is really an other. Out of all of the gender theories being studied, 3rd-G fits the best and still allows me to be the female I am, really. Yes, some of this is personal politics (and a state of spirit), but, I really want gender identity to evolve past the binary across the board. For every single human being!

DapperButch · 03-22-2010, 04:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

I find this to be true, as well. finally, I feel like we are getting somewhere! Being female-bodied, yet, masculine, not TG or Intergendered and butch is not easy!! I do claim female, but as I stated, it is really an other. Out of all of the gender theories being studied, 3rd-G fits the best and still allows me to be the female I am, really. Yes, some of this is personal politics (and a state of spirit), but, I really want gender identity to evolve past the binary across the board. For every single human being!

Hey there, AtLastHome (and Happy Birthday!)

Ok, so I am a little confused, and I am hoping that you can help me out here.

I have been struggling with understanding what you have been trying to get across in your posts on this thread. I have always enjoyed your posts and typically don't struggle with understanding what it is you are trying to get across, and often I am nodding as I am reading, in agreement.

But, in this thread, I am stumped. Really, really stumped.

I am having difficulty understanding why you would ID as "other" or "3rd gendered".

My understanding is that you define as female. You define as a woman. (And you define as butch).

So what makes you "third or "other gendered"?

To my knowledge third gendered/other gendered/two spirit has always been defined as someone who doesn't define as a man or as a woman and/or does not define as male or female.

You said, "Out of all the gender theories being studied, 3rd-G fits the best...". Are you referencing a certain piece of literature here that defines 3rd-G differently than the way I have defined it above (and which I think is also the general consensus of the thread)?

What definition of 3rd-G are you working from? The above, or something else?

Thanks.

AtLast · 03-24-2010, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Hey there, AtLastHome (and Happy Birthday!)

Ok, so I am a little confused, and I am hoping that you can help me out here.

I have been struggling with understanding what you have been trying to get across in your posts on this thread. I have always enjoyed your posts and typically don't struggle with understanding what it is you are trying to get across, and often I am nodding as I am reading, in agreement.

But, in this thread, I am stumped. Really, really stumped.

I am having difficulty understanding why you would ID as "other" or "3rd gendered".

My understanding is that you define as female. You define as a woman. (And you define as butch).

So what makes you "third or "other gendered"?

To my knowledge third gendered/other gendered/two spirit has always been defined as someone who doesn't define as a man or as a woman and/or does not define as male or female.

You said, "Out of all the gender theories being studied, 3rd-G fits the best...". Are you referencing a certain piece of literature here that defines 3rd-G differently than the way I have defined it above (and which I think is also the general consensus of the thread)?

What definition of 3rd-G are you working from? The above, or something else?

Thanks.

Hey, Dapper!

I see the confusion. I don't know if my personal definitions will make a lot of sense to others (LOL, no pun intended) and honestly, I don't believe I fit exactly into any gender theory I have ever read about. I seem to be a varied mix and I am fine with this. But, I know that this is not a peaceful condition for many of us.

I know I have the spirit of a woman, an actual woman (as my late partner used to tell me - she had always been involved with TG butches, which upon their wanting to transition, she needed to leave as she was a lesbian and just couldn't stay). She recognized my internal satisfaction and peace with the mix of male/masculine and female/feminine. I also find 2-spirit to be freeing because it does get away from the binary and also aligns with my spiritual belief system (which I have said is central to me). However, 2-Spirit is actually based upon sexuality as in being gay or lesbian or bisexual if you look at the literature. However, today, it is being more and more understood in terms of gender identity. Third-Gender identity fits with the fact that I am a masculine in many ways and I do see it as scientifically sound when it comes to the multitude of butches like me. I also believe that masculinity springs from the feminine (animus) as a long time Jungian. I believe in a collective unconscious stemming from the archetypal Great Mother. This is of a holy and sacred nature to me (yes, I get eye rolls, here).

I guess I push my female/woman into one part of the range of gender that 3rd-G seems to allow. I look at all of gender theory as a continuum, really just as I view sexuality.

I think my personal feelings here would not fit into a neat identification scheme. I know that my 2-Spirit feelings are pretty political because we just don't seem to have an alternative to the binary in our culture. Also, 2-Spirit is revered and respected by Native American cultures.

When someone refers to me as male, or uses male pronouns, my reaction isn't about gender politics, however, I honestly think... that isn't right, I am a woman. Its kind of like how some FtM's and MtF's have felt when they were viewed as the opposite gender than what is true for them.

Gender is fluid (and transcending) to me and really has no specific bounds other than what my internal truth is for me based upon my beliefs and that is female for me. Now, I do realize, that I too, have been subjected to the traditional binary and have no other name for what is true for me. I do know, that my female/feminine ancestors are at the center of who I am, even what is male/masculine about me.

I am glad to discuss this privately in more detail because I think my spiritual beliefs might throw others off, but I am very respectful of both religious and spiritual constructs of others and am not willing to have mine taken to task publicly (not that you or anyone else is doing so).

So, my 3rd-genderism just has a female slant, just as for others it may have a more male slant given the constraints of the English language. So, female-other is all I have at present that fits for me.... but I bet something else will come along! Third-Gendered fits because it appears to integrate gender.... to me!

I feel I have the right (for me) amount of female and male attributes and remain a woman. Maybe that’s it…. I do view myself as a woman, not simply female.

I don’t know that I use the terms female, feminine, male, or masculine as many here do. Again, these are integrated for me. For others, this isn’t true and one way of making things fit better for them might be gender manipulation or modification. I don’t know and certainly have no problem with this. I know that I want others to experience the same peace I do with my gender identification internally... whatever it takes!

******
This book is interesting concerning gender and lesbianism-
Sexual Subjects: Lesbians, Gender and Psychoa…(Paperback)
by Adria E. Schwartz

DapperButch · 03-24-2010, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Hey, Dapper!

I see the confusion. I don't know if my personal definitions will make a lot of sense to others (LOL, no pun intended) and honestly, I don't believe I fit exactly into any gender theory I have ever read about. I seem to be a varied mix and I am fine with this. But, I know that this is not a peaceful condition for many of us.

I know I have the spirit of a woman, an actual woman (as my late partner used to tell me - she had always been involved with TG butches, which upon their wanting to transition, she needed to leave as she was a lesbian and just couldn't stay). She recognized my internal satisfaction and peace with the mix of male/masculine and female/feminine. I also find 2-spirit to be freeing because it does get away from the binary and also aligns with my spiritual belief system (which I have said is central to me). However, 2-Spirit is actually based upon sexuality as in being gay or lesbian or bisexual if you look at the literature. However, today, it is being more and more understood in terms of gender identity. Third-Gender identity fits with the fact that I am a masculine in many ways and I do see it as scientifically sound when it comes to the multitude of butches like me. I also believe that masculinity springs from the feminine (animus) as a long time Jungian. I believe in a collective unconscious stemming from the archetypal Great Mother. This is of a holy and sacred nature to me (yes, I get eye rolls, here).

I guess I push my female/woman into one part of the range of gender that 3rd-G seems to allow. I look at all of gender theory as a continuum, really just as I view sexuality.

I think my personal feelings here would not fit into a neat identification scheme. I know that my 2-Spirit feelings are pretty political because we just don't seem to have an alternative to the binary in our culture. Also, 2-Spirit is revered and respected by Native American cultures.

When someone refers to me as male, or uses male pronouns, my reaction isn't about gender politics, however, I honestly think... that isn't right, I am a woman. Its kind of like how some FtM's and MtF's have felt when they were viewed as the opposite gender than what is true for them.

Gender is fluid (and transcending) to me and really has no specific bounds other than what my internal truth is for me based upon my beliefs and that is female for me. Now, I do realize, that I too, have been subjected to the traditional binary and have no other name for what is true for me. I do know, that my female/feminine ancestors are at the center of who I am, even what is male/masculine about me.

I am glad to discuss this privately in more detail because I think my spiritual beliefs might throw others off, but I am very respectful of both religious and spiritual constructs of others and am not willing to have mine taken to task publicly (not that you or anyone else is doing so).

So, my 3rd-genderism just has a female slant, just as for others it may have a more male slant given the constraints of the English language. So, female-other is all I have at present that fits for me.... but I bet something else will come along! Third-Gendered fits because it appears to integrate gender.... to me!

I feel I have the right (for me) amount of female and male attributes and remain a woman. Maybe that’s it…. I do view myself as a woman, not simply female.

I don’t know that I use the terms female, feminine, male, or masculine as many here do. Again, these are integrated for me. For others, this isn’t true and one way of making things fit better for them might be gender manipulation or modification. I don’t know and certainly have no problem with this. I know that I want others to experience the same peace I do with my gender identification internally... whatever it takes!

******
This book is interesting concerning gender and lesbianism-
Sexual Subjects: Lesbians, Gender and Psychoa…(Paperback)
by Adria E. Schwartz

Thanks for taking the time to respond, AtLastHome. I believe that I understand a bit better now.

AtLast · 03-24-2010, 09:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DapperButch

Thanks for taking the time to respond, AtLastHome. I believe that I understand a bit better now.

You bet!

I have been thinking about the fact that I (and it seems like quite a few others) do take some license when applying different gender theories to myself. I don't really know how this plays out in terms of those who are really experts in the field. There are certainly a whole lot of folks much more well-read, up to date and have a very breadth of knowledge in this area compared to me right here on the site (and the other sites for the B-F community. Some are even majoring in college in Gender Studies, etc. I know that when I am pondering gender identification it really helps me to ask folks I know that have more knowledge and can give me info on the literature.