The Rise of Anti-Government Bigots: Spitting, the N-Word, Anti-Gay/Lesbian Slurs

[theoddz]

I totally see where Kobi is coming from about the slurs bit. I remember when sexism was out in the open with the off-color, bad taste comments that some men would hurl at women. I served in the military and endured that kind of thing from men when "political correctness" wasn't in vogue. Then, when it became a litigious issue and the anti discrimination laws were passed, these same men shut their friggin' mouths. I was relieved that those laws did that....at first. Then I began to see the other side of that coin. When we used to know who the sexist pigs were, because they opened their mouths and told us so, they now kept their comments to themselves and we were forced to find out the hard way.....after we lost our jobs, promotions and were sometimes assaulted sexually by the men who used to verbally vent their feelings. Sometimes the most sexist, biggoted asshats hide behind disingenuous smiles, sweet words and token gestures. Their feelings are, instead, only revealed after the damage is done.

Throwing bricks through windows and other illegal tactics or "acting out" is quite another matter. Somehow, I don't think Kobi meant to say that that was or should be considered to be a "freedom of expression". Linus has it entirely right when he called that one out.

~Theo~

[dreadgeek]

I have said before and I'll say again that I much prefer my bigots out front and loud where I can keep an eye on them. However, I'm not going to do those bigots the favor of pretending that they aren't bigots just because they're 'only' calling me the n-word. As I said in my prior post, today it's calling me the n-word. Tomorrow it's doing something to me that "ni--ers got coming to them".

Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of the intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be most unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument, they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. We should claim that any movement preaching intolerance places itself outside the law, and we should consider incitement to intolerance and persecution as criminal, in the same way as we should consider incitement to murder, or to kidnapping, or to the revival of the slave trade, as criminal.
(Karl Popper, The Open Society and Its Enemies)

I quote this whenever this subject comes up because IF we ever lose our democratic republic it will likely be because we decided that tolerance wasn't worth defending until it was too late.

Cheers
Aj

Originally Posted by theoddz

I totally see where Kobi is coming from about the slurs bit. I remember when sexism was out in the open with the off-color, bad taste comments that some men would hurl at women. I served in the military and endured that kind of thing from men when "political correctness" wasn't in vogue. Then, when it became a litigious issue and the anti discrimination laws were passed, these same men shut their friggin' mouths. I was relieved that those laws did that....at first. Then I began to see the other side of that coin. When we used to know who the sexist pigs were, because they opened their mouths and told us so, they now kept their comments to themselves and we were forced to find out the hard way.....after we lost our jobs, promotions and were sometimes assaulted sexually by the men who used to verbally vent their feelings. Sometimes the most sexist, biggoted asshats hide behind disingenuous smiles, sweet words and token gestures. Their feelings are, instead, only revealed after the damage is done.

Throwing bricks through windows and other illegal tactics or "acting out" is quite another matter. Somehow, I don't think Kobi meant to say that that was or should be considered to be a "freedom of expression". Linus has it entirely right when he called that one out.

~Theo~

[Kobi]

Thank you for your eloquence Theo. I do not condone violence but I do understand it is a way to get a message across when you feel threatened and unheard. Does it accomplish much? No. But it makes the thrower feel some degree of power. I understand how frustrating it is to feel powerless.

Much as we as a nation have undergone major changes at various times - freedom from slavery, the great depression, the cold war, the rights movements etc - I suspect we are facing another change. Change is indeed scary and it certainly evokes much emotion
both good and bad.

I, personally, dont care for change but if I have to deal with it, I prefer it be presented in an open and honest way - that is respectful and decent. What I object to is the lies and deceit we Americans have been forced to deal with. Tell me the truth. Dont sugar coat screwing me. When people overreact, I find it is because they feel they have not been dealt with fairly or honestly.

I find it difficult to ascribe to an us-them mentality. I think it leads to conflict rather than resolution. Even when people do not agree with me or see things the way I do, I find it helpful to try and see things from their perspective. This doesnt mean I have to agree with them, it simply means their views are important too. Compromise comes from seeing all sides and focusing on what can be agreed upon. Can learn a lot by listening

[dreadgeek]

I'm curious. If someone comes up to me and starts yelling at me that I'm a ni--er or calling me some homophobic slur or telling me that I'm hell-bound what am I supposed to compromise on? What side am I supposed to be seeing? I hear this a lot from people (usually white people--sorry but there it is) that I should "see all sides" or "focus on what we have in common". I'm equally curious why *I* should have to compromise. Why is it incumbent on the *targets* of bigotry to do the compromising, to see all sides, including the side of those that hate? I rarely see anyone asserting that it's the bigots who should see all sides or compromise. In that situation--which isn't about policy it's about personhood--what am I supposed to be compromising *on* exactly? What side am I supposed to be seeing? What is it that I'm supposed to understand there?

I've listened to a lot of different things in my 40+ years. Not only have I listened, I've *heard* a lot of things. When I hear the word 'nigger' I don't see what there is to compromise on. What I hear and what I listen to can be translated to "I don't think you're human. I think you're low, dishonest, dirty and not someone who should be admitted where decent people are..."

I agree, their views ARE important. I WANT to hear them shout their hate from the rooftops if that is in their heart. What's more, I want *YOU* (generic you, Kobi not specific) to hear them so you can decide which side you're on and what, if anything, you want to do about it. I disagree that I need to be ready to compromise with the person hurling epithets at me. The person who disagrees with me and is willing to sit down and have a genuine discussion and meeting of the minds? Sure, absolutely. The person who is hurling epithets that boil down to "you're not human", I see no compromise that presents itself. They aren't going to admit that I *might* be human or they wouldn't be hurling the epithet. I'll be damned if I'm willing to grant that they might be right and maybe I'm not fully human. At that point, I don't really *care* about their feelings and I'm not interested in understanding where they are coming from. My interest, at that point, collapses into one thing: how can I conclude whatever business we might have to transact in the fastest, most efficient manner so that they can go on their way and I can go on mine and never again bother the others' eye with our visage.

Lastly, I don't think anyone *wants* to subscribe to an us-them mentality but sometimes there really IS an 'us' and there really IS a 'them'. If someone makes it clear that they have an America and that their America doesn't include me and that, given the opportunity, they will make certain that there is no place for me in their America, they’ve gone out of their way to make themselves, well, Them. I have never, in my entire life, started or invited a racist incident nor have I ever started or invited a sexist or homophobic incident. But I have had those experiences all more than once or twice. The person who *did* instigate those incidents was bound and determined to make me their 'them' and I'd be a fool (or a corpse) if I didn't take that person very, very seriously.

Cheers
Aj

[Dean Thoreau]

Has anyone noticed that the anti-governemnt,,keep government out of our business people seem to think it is alright for the government to stick their nose in a woman's right to choose and homosexuality...

Seems the only thing these people want regulated is what goes on in people bedrooms and their reproduction decisions...

i think that sux, really sux

think i will call the FBI, ATF, DEA on all the tea party bigots... (joke sort of...maybe)



sorry if this pisses off any B_F tea party members.....

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Dean Thoreau

Has anyone noticed that the anti-governemnt,,keep government out of our business people seem to think it is alright for the government to stick their nose in a woman's right to choose and homosexuality...

Yeah, funny isn't it? That in the very same breath, people who are convinced that, for instance, making a law that insurance companies can't just drop you off the rolls because you now NEED the insurance policy is the very essence of tyranny are absolutely enthusiastic about the idea that two men or two women should be punished for a consensual act of sex or for loving one another.

I find that incredibly ironic.

Cheers
Aj

[key]

The most powerful image of this whole health care debate (or screaming match if you will) is the man with Parkinson's disease who simply sat in front of the people who were wanting to deny him health care (to be his personal death panel).

His name is Robert Letcher, he has a PhD and was a nuclear engineer before being diagnosed with Parkinson's 15 years ago.

He is also a Martial Artist and he said he used his breathing exercises while he sat there and absorbed the hatred and condescension that was being violently hurled at him.

Personally I consider him an American Hero because of that moment.

Like Martin Luther King Jr, like Gandhi, like others have shown us throughout civil rights struggles in the past

pure and centered, righteous peace in the face of injustice really can change people's hearts. And when you have changed their hearts, they will change their minds

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by key

The most powerful image of this whole health care debate (or screaming match if you will) is the man with Parkinson's disease who simply sat in front of the people who were wanting to deny him health care (to be his personal death panel).

His name is Robert Letcher, he has a PhD and was a nuclear engineer before being diagnosed with Parkinson's 15 years ago.

He is also a Martial Artist and he said he used his breathing exercises while he sat there and absorbed the hatred and condescension that was being violently hurled at him.

Personally I consider him an American Hero because of that moment.

Like Martin Luther King Jr, like Gandhi, like others have shown us throughout civil rights struggles in the past

pure and centered, righteous peace in the face of injustice really can change people's hearts. And when you have changed their hearts, they will change their minds

It was also VERY telling about just how 'compassionate' these conservatives are.

As an aside, while I admire both Gandhi and King I think, sometimes, we idealize these men without taking their actions in context. Gandhi and King were able to use non-violent protests because the people who were the oppressors were, for the most part, civilized people. By that I mean that, for instance, both British and American culture had (maybe still have) at their cultural cores the idea that it is just *wrong* for a stronger (read armed) person to beat up a weaker (read unarmed/unresisting) person. So both men and their followers were facing people who *could* be reached, eventually after enough bodies were broken.

Had Gandhi or King had to face down the Nazis then I think history would have turned out *very* differently. Post-Weimar Germany had, at its core, an ethic that the strong had every right and, what's more, every *reason* to beat up the weak. Non-violent resistance would have just *encouraged* the Nazis because it would have shown them that blacks or Hindus just weren't willing to fight back.

One of the things that makes me so concerned about what I'm seeing and the actions of the national GOP leadership (who are standing in a puddle of gasoline and playing with a lighter) is that I can't yet tell if we are dealing with the British circa 1940, the Americans circa 1960 or the Germans circa 1936. What I saw the other day, in the pictures of those Tea Party protesters throwing money at this man with Parkinson's was closer to the latter than the former two. What I saw were the healthy and strong chomping at the bit to do something to the weak and sick.


Cheers
Aj

[key]

Originally Posted by dreadgeek

It was also VERY telling about just how 'compassionate' these conservatives are.


One of the things that makes me so concerned about what I'm seeing and the actions of the national GOP leadership (who are standing in a puddle of gasoline and playing with a lighter) is that I can't yet tell if we are dealing with the British circa 1940, the Americans circa 1960 or the Germans circa 1936. What I saw the other day, in the pictures of those Tea Party protesters throwing money at this man with Parkinson's was closer to the latter than the former two. What I saw were the healthy and strong chomping at the bit to do something to the weak and sick.


Cheers
Aj

Have you read the book "They Thought They Were Free"
The Germans, 1933-45 by Milton Mayer

he interviews people (Non Jews) who lived through the Holocaust. Here is an excerpt:

"You see," my colleague went on, "one doesn’t see exactly where or how to move. Believe me, this is true. Each act, each occasion, is worse than the last, but only a little worse. You wait for the next and the next. You wait for one great shocking occasion, thinking that others, when such a shock comes, will join with you in resisting somehow. You don’t want to act, or even talk, alone; you don’t want to ‘go out of your way to make trouble.’ Why not?—Well, you are not in the habit of doing it. And it is not just fear, fear of standing alone, that restrains you; it is also genuine uncertainty.

Key: I think for the time being we have a fundamentally decent leader in the Whitehouse so we (hopefully) will not see any huge loss of rights, and we may even see some gaining of rights (DADT being repealed) but the scariest thing going on right now is the Supreme Court being so tilted towards corporate facism. This Fascism paired with these ignorant tea partiers is a dangerous combination indeed.

Perhaps in Germany, if the right people had done the right thing (hello, Christian Churches?) things would have been different.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by key

The most powerful image of this whole health care debate (or screaming match if you will) is the man with Parkinson's disease who simply sat in front of the people who were wanting to deny him health care (to be his personal death panel).

His name is Robert Letcher, he has a PhD and was a nuclear engineer before being diagnosed with Parkinson's 15 years ago.

He is also a Martial Artist and he said he used his breathing exercises while he sat there and absorbed the hatred and condescension that was being violently hurled at him.

Personally I consider him an American Hero because of that moment.

Like Martin Luther King Jr, like Gandhi, like others have shown us throughout civil rights struggles in the past

pure and centered, righteous peace in the face of injustice really can change people's hearts. And when you have changed their hearts, they will change their minds

Yes, this struck me deeply. Change of heart, exactly. I am having a hard time with all of this because I turned 59 today and for the very first time in my life (have been an activist for decades), and no longer believe much heart changing will happen in what is left of my life. And for the first time, I am seriously considering leaving the US. Very seriously. At least an african American has been elected president, but my well of hope is drying up.

[Soft*Silver]

for you, ALH, and all others who are tired soldiers, who have lugged signs or signed petitions or sat in large groups or jumped on buses or formed a human fence...who are greyer now, move stiffer, and see not quite as well...I say this...

it seems as though all your work has been naught enough. You look around Today and you think, where is all my effort? Surely there has to be more progress....more noticable change? When I look on tv or on the internet or listen to the radio, Why do I not hear how radical the differences are? Why does it seem its all in vain...why is there not enought change?

to you, I say,

to you, who battled to open domestic violence shelters when women were still considered objects

for you who fought to make rape a crime of power and not an act of unrequited lust

for you who said 46 cents to a man's dollar is not enough for a woman to live on

for you who said racial intolerance is unacceptable and dared to drink at the only the fountains as anyone could....

for you who said education should be for everyone, not just the 12% who own 95% of the nation's wealth

for you who saw children and knew they had no rights...and committed to them a career that most would never want

for you who understood that saying "he" and "mankind" to refer to all of humankind was WRONG

for you who dreamed a life where orientations could co-exist together in a non hierarchal platform in the nation, let alone a neighborhood

for you who voted and voted and voted AND VOTED to put the right people in...

for you who fought wars to protect our nation and for you who fought so wars wouldnt be needed to be fought...

for you who made the statment "hate is not a family value" a household phrase

for you, I thank you....

and caution you...not to look ahead and think of how much is yet needing to be done. Each generation has their own legacies that they inherit, of what is still not done. Instead, look back and see all that has been done ....

by you

the individual

and the era's collective heroes...

and while your work is done, oh silver ones...yes, THE work is not all done.

So to those young who step up to the plate...

thank you

for continuing onward....




=AtLastHome;71638]
Yes, this struck me deeply. Change of heart, exactly. I am having a hard time with all of this because I turned 59 today and for the very first time in my life (have been an activist for decades), and no longer believe much heart changing will happen in what is left of my life. And for the first time, I am seriously considering leaving the US. Very seriously. At least an african American has been elected president, but my well of hope is drying up. [/QUOTE]

[key]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Yes, this struck me deeply. Change of heart, exactly. I am having a hard time with all of this because I turned 59 today and for the very first time in my life (have been an activist for decades), and no longer believe much heart changing will happen in what is left of my life. And for the first time, I am seriously considering leaving the US. Very seriously. At least an african American has been elected president, but my well of hope is drying up.

Have you ever listened to Thom Hartman? He is on AM radio stations. the smartest man (regarding politics and US history in particular) I know alive today. And also very courteous and respectful even as he argues for liberal principles. He is really quite refreshing! Sort of the Anti-Glenn Beck, though is much more than that, more like a professor, as he deals in facts, but is very entertaining and easy to listen to.

http://www.thomhartmann.com/

Anyway, he is always reminding his listeners about how this moment we are in is part of the larger story of our very young, very immature nation. If you do not know of him I just wanted to turn you, and everyone on to him. he might be able to replenish some of your hope reserves.

Happy Birthday BTW.

[Kobi]

[I'm curious. If someone comes up to me and starts yelling at me that I'm a ni--er or calling me some homophobic slur or telling me that I'm hell-bound what am I supposed to compromise on? What side am I supposed to be seeing? I hear this a lot from people (usually white people--sorry but there it is) that I should "see all sides" or "focus on what we have in common". I'm equally curious why *I* should have to compromise. Why is it incumbent on the *targets* of bigotry to do the compromising, to see all sides, including the side of those that hate? I rarely see anyone asserting that it's the bigots who should see all sides or compromise. In that situation--which isn't about policy it's about personhood--what am I supposed to be compromising *on* exactly? What side am I supposed to be seeing? What is it that I'm supposed to understand there? ]

Dread,

I hear what you are saying. And I agree, taking the higher road can be a pain in the hiney.

I am also not Black so I dont know what it is like to have the n word hurled at me. I do know that many Black folks have accomplished, developed, designed, and done a lot of great things for this country. And they have endured and overcome a lot of hardship and obstacles to do so. That, to me, is a triumph of spirit, determination, and belief in self. It is something to be very proud of.

I am gay tho and if someone had the audacity to come up to me and tell me I was going to hell....I would try and remember the song....let there be peace on earth and let it begin with me. I refuse to make someone elses views define me, nor will I be provoked to defend something that to me doesnt need to be defended. My concern is the person I am and who I want to be, not the person who might be harassing me. But, thats just my way of being in the world.

Trust me, sometimes I struggle with a desire to just haul off and slug an idiot. But thats just not who I am or who I want to be.

[Dean Thoreau]

kobi, Someone comes up to you hollering stuff,,,mean stuff slurs and all that crap.......
do what my daughter does....slap the shit out of them!

or my other daughter............slaps the shit out of them!

or what my other daughter does.......... "tells the person...I love You and then makes kissy faces at them"

or what my other daughter does....she says "Excuse me but i am a heathen leasbian witch,,careful or i will cast a spell that all your children will grow up and be democrats!"



or me.....i just start grunting and groaning and call the person uncle bill and keep asking where my butterscotch pudding is.....(they seem to run).


All i know is Kobi i agree stop letitng people tell you to open your mind, see both sides and all that crap....
enuf with having to be the wiser, kinder, gentler soul...dont show you are a bigger person by not responding or responding with kindness,,,,
i at long last agree with my daughters and say dont be a doormat
slap the crap out of them!

[dreadgeek]

Originally Posted by Dean Thoreau

.
enuf with having to be the wiser, kinder, gentler soul...dont show you are a bigger person by not responding or responding with kindness,,,,
i at long last agree with my daughters and say dont be a doormat
slap the crap out of them!

When I was a wee young baby dyke, my friend and mentor, Bubba a self-described 'leftist, gay, redneck' who is the most wonderful bear you ever want to meet, bought a gun. He did so because he was hobbling around with one foot in a big brace, with one eye ready to crash if he took a blow to the head, and a T-cell count that was headed in the wrong direction. He was out, as much as his health would allow, doing Narcotics Anonymous and work with HIV/AIDS information. He said he needed a gun to protect himself. I couldn't agree with him at the time. We argued about it. At the time, Bubba had been out for twenty years having come out, in North Caroline no less, in 1973 while a student at UNC Asheville. He'd grown tired of having to take it and wasn't going to live out whatever time he had left in fear of some homophobe come up from San Jose or down from Fresno for a weekend's 'hunting' as some young men were wont to do during the early 90's.

Now, 17 years later and I have just entered my third decade out of the closet, I have a great deal more sympathy for where he was and I have to admit, I was wrong then. I thought I knew what I was talking about at the time, I didn't.

No, I haven't bought a gun (yet) and most likely wouldn't carry if (when) I did but simply for home defense.

I'm not arguing nor would I, in any ordinary circumstances, argue in favor of getting in people's faces and matching blow for blow. If there's a way *to* walk away, I think one *should* walk away. That said, I also believe that I do not owe the bigots the favor of being walked upon. I do not think I have to understand their bigotry, I think I have to accept that there will always be bigots and that we should order society in such a way that we minimize the effects of bigotry--including our own. I hope I hold no foolish prejudices and that I am always mindful of the old Pogo cartoon "we have met the enemy and he is us". But should I have prejudices or bigotry I hold, I do not want my problem to become someone else's problem.

Your daughter's reactions rock!

Cheers
Aj

[Soft*Silver]

from our guy in Ohio...

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PXxpjSXtWyA&feature=player_embedded"]YouTube- Congressman Ryan Denounces Protestor Behavior[/ame]