Masculine of Center -- the term

[aishah]

Originally Posted by Corkey

Butch is not a descriptor of color, Transmen is not a descriptor of color, Boi is not, Boy is not. So when did it become ok to include people into a descriptor that does not pertain to them? Are they masculine, yes, but so is female. See the problem? The words Masculine of Center has no racial connotation.

the term "masculine of center" was coined by a black butch who runs an organization for masculine folks of color, and it is only widely used in poc communities. personally, i don't find it a shock that the backlash against it has mainly come from white people. its adoption in butch voices and other spaces, from my understanding, has partly been an attempt to widen its use as an umbrella term and partly an attempt (although one people think is bad?) to be more inclusive.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by aishah

the term "masculine of center" was coined by a black butch who runs an organization for masculine folks of color, and it is only widely used in poc communities. its adoption in butch voices and other spaces, from my understanding, has partly been an attempt to widen its use as an umbrella term and partly an attempt (although one people think is bad?) to be more inclusive.

That does not make it inclusive if the people they are trying to include do not accept the term for themselves. I know that a PoC coined the term, it doesn't make it so for the ones who it pro ports to include if they do not feel it pertains to them. Make since?

[aishah]

Originally Posted by Corkey

That does not make it inclusive if the people they are trying to include do not accept the term for themselves. I know that a PoC coined the term, it doesn't make it so for the ones who it pro ports to include if they do not feel it pertains to them. Make since?

from butch voices:

"We are woman-identified Butches. We are trans-masculine Studs. We are faggot-identified Aggressives. We are noun Butches, adjective Studs and pronoun-shunning Aggressives. We are she, he, hy, ze, zie and hir. We are you, and we are me. The point is, we don’t decide who is Butch, Stud or Aggressive. You get to decide for yourself."

[Martina]

Originally Posted by aishah

from butch voices:

"We are woman-identified Butches. We are trans-masculine Studs. We are faggot-identified Aggressives. We are noun Butches, adjective Studs and pronoun-shunning Aggressives. We are she, he, hy, ze, zie and hir. We are you, and we are me. The point is, we don’t decide who is Butch, Stud or Aggressive. You get to decide for yourself."

It doesn't matter what you say UNDER the term. The point is the term. That's what is going to be used. It's beyond naive not to get that.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by aishah

from butch voices:

"We are woman-identified Butches. We are trans-masculine Studs. We are faggot-identified Aggressives. We are noun Butches, adjective Studs and pronoun-shunning Aggressives. We are she, he, hy, ze, zie and hir. We are you, and we are me. The point is, we don’t decide who is Butch, Stud or Aggressive. You get to decide for yourself."

And I say YEY! It does not say we are only PoC and only PoC can use these identities.

[JustBeingMe]

Originally Posted by aishah

the term "masculine of center" was coined by a black butch who runs an organization for masculine folks of color, and it is only widely used in poc communities. its adoption in butch voices and other spaces, from my understanding, has partly been an attempt to widen its use as an umbrella term and partly an attempt (although one people think is bad?) to be more inclusive.

Lets see if this makes any sense to anyone.
I met a new "friend" whom is a person of colour and we talked a bit about why she used the term "stud" to describe how she ID'd and why I use the term butch and I am white. She told me that the term "butch" to her felt like it was derogatory term and that is why she called herself a stud instead. That her upbringing and how she was part of a community that is of colour, the term became coined. Well that is just that, her pov and perspective. Mine, however is different. I am "butch" not a stud, it's the word "DYKE" that I feel is a derogatory term to me personally because that is how it has been used against me by straights. I can see how the term butch can be used by straights to mean you want to be a man in the relationship to folks that don't get our dynamic.
I can see how people of colour feel erased, just like any other ID in our community can and often does feel at times erased themselves. I have felt erased because I am not only butch but I am a lesbian on top of that term. And on top of those terms I am a female /woman.(eta And I am female but masculine as well).
Basically what I am seeing in the articles I perused through is they feel possibly erased and need to feel included and for them, the terms that are already out there, don't describe them as a whole, or us as a whole community and that's what they wish to do.
I personally wouldn't use the term myself, and I don't want anyone else to use it for me to describe me either.
But, I kinda can get something from this. I am not sure what Center means maybe it's just a jumping off point to start a new revolution from the old to the new. I don't know.
But I wish to say I have no problems or issues with how anyone wants to call themselves, just don't push it off on me too and erase who I am. Period.
Maybe we should not just discuss this use of term, but email the woman who coined it and ask her for her thoughts on what the center is exactly? and why she chose Masculine of Center and not Feminine of Center?? or Some other term in our spectrum of ID's.

PS. Where's Bulldog on this issue ??? I can't wait to read her point of view on this.

[julieisafemme]

I have to agree with Aishah on this and say that it is upsetting to me to see people divorce the meaning of the word from its origins. I was at the BV conference and knew of The Brown Boi Project (BBP)before the conference ever happened. Brown Boi is an amazing organization doing incredible work all over the country. They work in men's prisons, they work with women and children, they work with all men and women of color who identify with masculinity. They have a cohort program that mentors young masculine women and men to take on an active role in their communities working for gender justice.

Cole, the founder of BBP, is inspiring and I admire her. Every time we have attended an event for BBP we have felt embraced, welcomed and loved.

I understand that the term MoC is not something everyone resonates with. That is ok! As Aishah said don't use it! I just wish people would look beyond the term to to the woman who coined it and the good work she does. I don't see how anyone could disagree with that!

[nowandthen]

[QUOTE=julieisafemme;732361]I have to agree with Aishah on this and say that it is upsetting to me to see people divorce the meaning of the word from its origins [/QUOTE
THe origins of the word come from the medical field and is about naming difference that needs correction, yes we have reclaimed it, but is roots lie in Mental Illness as the place to define, mark and correct that which the center has named "normal"

[julieisafemme]

[quote=nowandthen;732403]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

I have to agree with Aishah on this and say that it is upsetting to me to see people divorce the meaning of the word from its origins [/QUOTE
THe origins of the word come from the medical field and is about naming difference that needs correction, yes we have reclaimed it, but is roots lie in Mental Illness as the place to define, mark and correct that which the center has named "normal"

The word masculinity or center? I am not understanding here.

[nowandthen]

[quote=julieisafemme;732408]

Originally Posted by nowandthen

The word masculinity or center? I am not understanding here.

All labeling , butch, femme, masculinity, transsexual, etc. all find there roots in the medical industrial complex, a system of control
So for me in my unlearnig I have realized that all the language used must be defined by the person using the term, and some of it will be familiar so will not. But Butch is not a term born out of community, it is a term applied that we took back and claimed.

[julieisafemme]

[quote=nowandthen;732428]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

All labeling , butch, femme, masculinity, transsexual, etc. all find there roots in the medical industrial complex, a system of control
So for me in my unlearnig I have realized that all the language used must be defined by the person using the term, and some of it will be familiar so will not. But Butch is not a term born out of community, it is a term applied that we took back and claimed.

Thank you! I so appreciate learning the roots of words.

[Parker]

Originally Posted by aishah

mainstream butch spaces are inclusive of white butches. mainstream butch spaces are not, by default, inclusive of butches of color. most qpoc i know don't automatically assume we are welcomed in mainstream queer spaces...because we aren't. that is why it is important to be intentionally inclusive.

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

Sorry Dude but being at the conference and other events made it clear that this does have a whole lot to do with color. That is my personal experience.

Originally Posted by Dude

well that is fucked up

I'm glad I had no desire to go

thank you for not talking down you nose at me

like I should have known thats what went down there

I cant be eloquent right now because it really pisses me off that any event in the LGBT community would exclude POC - or even make POC feel excluded.

How can you have a conference called Butch Voices and NOT INCLUDE ALL OF OUR VOICES???


I also want to add that it really never occurred to me that calling something Butch-this-or-that would make POC feel that they were not welcome because they dont identify with the term Butch.

Call it privilege or ignorance (or hell, both), but it really never would have occurred to me that Butch wouldnt include all of us and I feel like we, as a community (B-F and LGBT), should seriously talk about this more; but I dont mean that in the POC-should-educate-white-folk way, but more of a we-need-to-get-this-shit-out-into-the-open-to-dispel-the-ignorance-surrounding-it way.



Oh, ps - I agree with Greyson: policing sucks.

[Dude]

Originally Posted by aishah

i don't find it a shock that the backlash against it has mainly come from white people. its adoption in butch voices and other spaces, from my understanding, (although one people think is bad?) to be more inclusive.

Quite frankly ,
this has nothing to do with color and I'm baffled by you going there over
and over again , with your posts.
Maybe the backlash is coming from old butches of all colors instead?
I would also not go to a boi / boy gathering either unless I was looking for one.

it does not feel inclusive
to this old white butch
nope

back in my day , we didnt have groups
and we managed to get along , just fine!
eh, something to ponder

edits to add
zero problems with being called stud

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by Dude

Quite frankly ,
this has nothing to do with color and I'm baffled by you going there over
and over again , with your posts.
Maybe the backlash is coming from old butches of all colors instead?
I would also not go to a boi / boy gathering either unless I was looking for one.

it does not feel inclusive
to this old white butch
nope

back in my day , we didnt have groups
and we managed to get along , just fine!
eh, something to ponder

Sorry Dude but being at the conference and other events made it clear that this does have a whole lot to do with color. That is my personal experience.

[Dude]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

Sorry Dude but being at the conference and other events made it clear that this does have a whole lot to do with color. That is my personal experience.

well that is fucked up

I'm glad I had no desire to go

thank you for not talking down you nose at me

like I should have known thats what went down there

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by Dude

well that is fucked up

I'm glad I had no desire to go

thank you for not talking down you nose at me

like I should have known thats what went down there

I am so sorry you felt that was fucked up. You stated quite clearly that this conversation had nothing to do with color and that is not my experience. I did not mean to offend you.

As far as the conference goes I am not understanding what you mean by "that s what went down there?"

[Dude]

Originally Posted by julieisafemme

I am so sorry you felt that was fucked up. You stated quite clearly that this conversation had nothing to do with color and that is not my experience. I did not mean to offend you.

As far as the conference goes I am not understanding what you mean by "that s what went down there?"

I'm so sorry , I was not more clear with my words.

I appreciate you telling me what went down at the conference.

I had no idea that race played a divisive role in what was
'supposed" to be an all inclusive and supportive event.

that is fucked up , disappointing and news to me

[julieisafemme]

Originally Posted by Dude

I'm so sorry , I was not more clear with my words.

I appreciate you telling me what went down at the conference.

I had no idea that race played a divisive role in what was
'suppossed" to be an all inclusive and supportive event.

that is fucked up and dissapointing

Yes it was. I am not an academic and struggle to understand things sometimes. What happened at the conference for me is I could feel the racial tension and the tension between butches who identify with female or male pronouns. Sometimes it was so overwhelming I had to leave the room. It made me sick to stomach. It was not disappointing or fucked up though. I also felt love, acceptance, civility and an honest attempt by many to understand and repair the damage. I felt hopeful and I learned a LOT.

BBP ran an intergenerational panel workshop of butches/MoC. Greyson and Toughy were on the panel. The youngest participant was 16! It was absolutely transforming to me and I got to see Cole at work and saw how wonderfully she handled the stories and the really intense emotions that came up.

It may not have been for everyone. I enjoyed it and learned a lot.

[aishah]

Originally Posted by Dude

Quite frankly ,
this has nothing to do with color and I'm baffled by you going there over
and over again , with your posts.
Maybe the backlash is coming from old butches of all colors instead?
I would also not go to a boi / boy gathering either unless I was looking for one.

it does not feel inclusive
to this old white butch
nope

back in my day , we didnt have groups
and we managed to get along , just fine!
eh, something to ponder

mainstream butch spaces are inclusive of white butches. mainstream butch spaces are not, by default, inclusive of butches of color. most qpoc i know don't automatically assume we are welcomed in mainstream queer spaces...because we aren't. that is why it is important to be intentionally inclusive.