New sex partner=new toys? Your opinion

[Martina]

I get that cleanliness and safety are indices of self-respect and respecting others.

I don't get the rest of it. What does owning a new anything or a "just ours" anything have to do with respect? And, if one doesn't do that, is one disrespecting oneself and others?

It sounds puritanical to me. If something is clean, it is clean. But people are attaching meaning to the fact that an item has been used by or touched another person. OK. People do that sort of thing. But that has nothing to do with "respect" by any definition. It is not respect or disrespect to choose any of the options discussed in this thread. It is personal preference.

To me this kind of comment seems to invoke some standard of purity that we have inherited from a patriarchal ideology. Why must the stuff be new? Is the idea that fucking is somehow polluting and that the things we fuck with have been contaminated and could pollute others?

Really, if there is no health risk to the new partner, how is buying new a sign of respect? It might be a sign that you are willing to spend money on her, which could mean that you value her. I wouldn't call that respect, but it does indicate regard. But you could buy anything to show that, and it's not anything you are buying.

[Sun]

Originally Posted by Martina

To me this kind of comment seems to invoke some standard of purity that we have inherited from a patriarchal ideology. Why must the stuff be new? Is the idea that fucking is somehow polluting and that the things we fuck with have been contaminated and could pollute others?

Quite frankly I am amazed at how much conversation this topic gets here especially since it was hashed and rehashed in the butch cock thread.

I am not getting the whole purity thing here and it has undertones of "slut" shaming. If I am going to have sex with a woman who has had someone else's cock inside of her how does that impact me? What if they did not use protection? What if they had children? What if the guy fucked around on her with multiple partners?

Answer: So what. This is life. Practice safe sex. The end.

While I am trying hard to absorb the info here, I see the term "toy" and the term "cock" and do relate with the understanding that some here strap on a cock and some strap on a toy.

For those using their own cocks, buy some condoms. Be a clean freak. Not just with your cock/sex toys but with everything. Nails, oral hygiene, and so on. Clean is clean. Learning how to sanitize and keep things as clean as possible is going to have to happen after the first time you use any object or prosthetic device.

[meridiantoo]

Originally Posted by Sun

Quite frankly I am amazed at how much conversation this topic gets here especially since it was hashed and rehashed in the butch cock thread.

I am new and did not realize another thread had already addressed this topic. I do think it being in both forums is a good idea, though (both femme and butch). I feel more comfortable speaking my mind in the femme forums, perhaps because I am new. I may not be the only femme who feels that way.

Now about that banana ice cream

[pinkgeek]

I think most subjects are worth discussing more than once!

I agree that having this thread in the femme zone makes me more likely to participate. As a personal rule I am less likely to be as opinionated in "zones" that aren't part of my definition of myself. My opinion about butch cock in a butch thread usually stops at my imagination and doesn't flow to my keyboard.

I'll add coconut to your banana ice cream and see you some chocolate chips.

Originally Posted by meridiantoo

I am new and did not realize another thread had already addressed this topic. I do think it being in both forums is a good idea, though (both femme and butch). I feel more comfortable speaking my mind in the femme forums, perhaps because I am new. I may not be the only femme who feels that way.

Now about that banana ice cream

[meridiantoo]

These are my thoughts before slumber tonight:

Our sexuality is an extension of the very core of our being. It is intertwined with our beliefs/hopes/dreams/self-identities/fears/the list goes on and on. My 'respect' definition is my own. It is based in patriarchal puritanical ideologies. I have no problem with that. As such, my sexual practices/lifestyle also reflect this. By owning this as me, it necessarily excludes other lifestyles. I can't be both puritanical and sexually liberal at the same time. That doesn't mean shaming of someone who lives differently than I do. I may not truly understand it. I may not appreciate it. I may not know how to process it. But, it doesn't mean a judgment per se. What someone thinks is on them.

I think this is the pearl of this thread, one I did not see when it started. You get to see how others feel about themselves, how they perceive others, and where their own definitions lie. To me, this is how you learn to grow as a person, expand your mind/heart and thus character.

[pinkgeek]

Originally Posted by meridiantoo

My 'respect' definition is my own. It is based in patriarchal puritanical ideologies. I have no problem with that. As such, my sexual practices/lifestyle also reflect this.

Disclaimer: I ask this in a most respectful fashion and in no way am I attacking you. I'm by nature a very curious person (ask anyone on BFP who knows me IRL) and articulate, respectful discourse with people who don't share my points of view, politics, etc. is incredibly interesting and valuable to me. Additionally I use the term "queer(s)" in it's academic meaning: to include the whole gender/LGBT spectrum.

Question: How do you reconcile being wherever you place yourself on the queer spectrum and being OK with/embracing of patriarchal and puritanical ideologies that have been and continue to be responsible for the subjugation, stratification and repression of minorities, very specifically targeting women and queers.

(I'm assuming because this is a butch/femme site that you do place yourself on the LGBT spectrum and don't identify as str8.)

<---nerdy pink is nerdy

[meridiantoo]

Originally Posted by pinkgeek

Disclaimer: I ask this in a most respectful fashion and in no way am I attacking you. I'm by nature a very curious person (ask anyone on BFP who knows me IRL) and articulate, respectful discourse with people who don't share my points of view, politics, etc. is incredibly interesting and valuable to me. Additionally I use the term "queer(s)" in it's academic meaning: to include the whole gender/LGBT spectrum.

Question: How do you reconcile being wherever you place yourself on the queer spectrum and being OK with/embracing of patriarchal and puritanical ideologies that have been and continue to be responsible for the subjugation, stratification and repression of minorities, very specifically targeting women and queers.

(I'm assuming because this is a butch/femme site that you do place yourself on the LGBT spectrum and don't identify as str8.)

<---nerdy pink is nerdy

Pink,

I loved what you wrote in your earlier post. I didn't take it offensively. I took it as I am in that category and that is the basis for my self-definitions. Being okay with it means I don't war with it, struggle with it (anymore, anyway).

No, I am not straight; lesbian femme - came out at 26, but I've only had 4 female sexual partners in that time.

Question: How do you reconcile being wherever you place yourself on the queer spectrum and being OK with/embracing of patriarchal and puritanical ideologies that have been and continue to be responsible for the subjugation, stratification and repression of minorities, very specifically targeting women and queers.


I have many issues with patriarchal systems. But, I still believe in them. I know that many, if not most, Christians do not act as Christ would, they are not Christ-like. That is very saddening to me, but it's true, in my experience. I look at it that the male persona (mostly bio male religious fundamentalists) have made the systems the way they are. And they are based on fear, mostly, I think, then followed by a sense of entitlement. I see the diamond in all the coal, and there is a lot of coal to brush aside to find the gem. I'm really pooped, but I wanted to respond before I went to bed. I will add more tomorrow. Thank you for responding.

[meridiantoo]

Originally Posted by pinkgeek

Disclaimer: I ask this in a most respectful fashion and in no way am I attacking you. I'm by nature a very curious person (ask anyone on BFP who knows me IRL) and articulate, respectful discourse with people who don't share my points of view, politics, etc. is incredibly interesting and valuable to me. Additionally I use the term "queer(s)" in it's academic meaning: to include the whole gender/LGBT spectrum.

Question: How do you reconcile being wherever you place yourself on the queer spectrum and being OK with/embracing of patriarchal and puritanical ideologies that have been and continue to be responsible for the subjugation, stratification and repression of minorities, very specifically targeting women and queers.

(I'm assuming because this is a butch/femme site that you do place yourself on the LGBT spectrum and don't identify as str8.)

<---nerdy pink is nerdy

Okay, back with a fresh pair of eyes and clearer thoughts...

I take the systems as a whole and realize they are limited and flawed because humans are limited and flawed (this is just my opinion, not tossing this toward or on anyone else - ).

I don't accept/support/overlook what has been done in the course of humanity to minorities/children/animals/Earth/those deemed 'lesser than' for whatever reason. I can't reconcile it to the point of being comfortable with living in a system that harms/disregards others. However, I am certain that if there were matriarchal systems that dominated history, there would be other problems too. I don't think female/feminine identities are without flaws/inherent limits. Both male and female as we know it are balancing agents. One alone is not enough and there is a 'checks and balances' undercurrent to life. Call it whatever you want (karma, justice)- it seems to be there to some degree. Without rambling too much more, I just think the answer to the crimes against humanity/life in general does not lie in male persecution or male subjugation. Two wrongs do not make a right. I am not a feminist as such. I don't think women should rule. I think men/women should rule fairly and in harmony.

I go to church and am saddened that my sexuality is an issue. But, I also understand where people are coming from and I do not think God condemns me. If people do, that's on them, in the end. Getting weary with the battle does mean I have, at this point in my life, set aside formal church settings for the most part. It's a flawed system. But, still one I accept as my truth.

[Sun]

Originally Posted by meridiantoo

I am new and did not realize another thread had already addressed this topic. I do think it being in both forums is a good idea, though (both femme and butch). I feel more comfortable speaking my mind in the femme forums, perhaps because I am new. I may not be the only femme who feels that way.

Now about that banana ice cream

I truly hope that my comment did not offend you in any way, I am sorry, of course you are new here. Last night I was a exhausted and somewhat impatient with similar points being made repeatedly but it has nothing to do with you. That is on me.

Banana ice cream..lol..food conversations follow me everywhere..I swear. *smirk*

[meridiantoo]

Originally Posted by Sun

I truly hope that my comment did not offend you in any way, I am sorry, of course you are new here. Last night I was a exhausted and somewhat impatient with similar points being made repeatedly but it has nothing to do with you. That is on me.

Banana ice cream..lol..food conversations follow me everywhere..I swear. *smirk*

No, no offense taken. I just wanted to respond...no worries.

[pinkgeek]

I think this is a really interesting and valid point Martina.

I was recently at a meeting with some of the heads of the DOH here and other people in key positions and I was really really surprised by how not liberal about sex they were. The shock was because considering what we do for a living, we've heard it all and then some........One colleague expressed shock at someone hosting a sex party and another epidemiologist couldn't get over the concept of someone being bisexual AND poly. "Why can't they just be normal" was actually said at one point. I was surprised that sex work wasn't talked about openly and when it was there was a whole cloud of shame and stigma around it. Your politics may not be the same as mine, but shame and sex are absolutely about patriarchy, religious fundamentalism, myths and stigma.

I fully realize I'm in the minority and some of my liberalness about sex is because I grew up in a highly conservative environment and part of how I acted out against it was by being sexually and politically liberal as hell. I get that I see sex and many other things humans do through a lens that I purposefully smashed as much shame and judgement out of as I can.

So here lies the problem as I see it in our community of queers who dig the butch/femme label, identity, etc. Sex in most all communities has an element of shame involved in it, some more so than others but it's not as much of an individual opinion as it is a insidious social one. In my opinion when the queer community places "respect" on a toy or cock being new we add to the problem not take away from it and here's why in my opinion.

If I go back and read this whole thread I see a dividing line come pretty clear. Those who think sex is sex and doing it safely is what's paramount and those who think respect, class, love, etc is tied to the newness of object used to reach orgasm and the infrequency of one night stands being important to them.

The unsaid remark I feel is that those of us who are more liberal are slutty. Slutty because we don't place relative importance on buying a new cock or toy for a new partner. Slutty that we are less loving, respectful, classy and slutty because one night stands or sex for the sake of sex doesn't cause us moral or emotional dilemma. That we love less deeply because we have had more than a select few lovers/partners.

So in closing this note that is sure to be irritating to some what I will say is....examine the value judgements you make around sex. (I'm including myself, I need to examine my own since I got a little judgy-mcjudgerton by people expressing more conservative and emotion based opinions than I have.)

Same sex marriage is illegal based on arguments about how we have s.e.x and who we have sex with and to add additional shame around sex to me adds legitimacy to the argument that what we do in our beds is somehow not normal when it is.

Sex is normal and fun and messy and sometimes safe and sometimes unsafe, but either way you slice it sex, queer sex, het sex, kinky sex it's all sex and sex is a normal human thingy! (Yay for not science words that get the point across!)

I'm fairly certain the shaming attitude is less what people are thinking or writing openly and on purpose and more something that has evolved and come to light as a result of this thread which is both beautiful and important.

Personally I shall endeavor to spend more time having sex this week than I do talking about it which means I had better stop writing!

Originally Posted by Martina

I get that cleanliness and safety are indices of self-respect and respecting others.

I don't get the rest of it. What does owning a new anything or a "just ours" anything have to do with respect? And, if one doesn't do that, is one disrespecting oneself and others?

It sounds puritanical to me. If something is clean, it is clean. But people are attaching meaning to the fact that an item has been used by or touched another person. OK. People do that sort of thing. But that has nothing to do with "respect" by any definition. It is not respect or disrespect to choose any of the options discussed in this thread. It is personal preference.

To me this kind of comment seems to invoke some standard of purity that we have inherited from a patriarchal ideology. Why must the stuff be new? Is the idea that fucking is somehow polluting and that the things we fuck with have been contaminated and could pollute others?

Really, if there is no health risk to the new partner, how is buying new a sign of respect? It might be a sign that you are willing to spend money on her, which could mean that you value her. I wouldn't call that respect, but it does indicate regard. But you could buy anything to show that, and it's not anything you are buying.

[AmazonWoman1]

Originally Posted by pinkgeek

I think this is a really interesting and valid point Martina.

I was recently at a meeting with some of the heads of the DOH here and other people in key positions and I was really really surprised by how not liberal about sex they were. The shock was because considering what we do for a living, we've heard it all and then some........One colleague expressed shock at someone hosting a sex party and another epidemiologist couldn't get over the concept of someone being bisexual AND poly. "Why can't they just be normal" was actually said at one point. I was surprised that sex work wasn't talked about openly and when it was there was a whole cloud of shame and stigma around it. Your politics may not be the same as mine, but shame and sex are absolutely about patriarchy, religious fundamentalism, myths and stigma.

I fully realize I'm in the minority and some of my liberalness about sex is because I grew up in a highly conservative environment and part of how I acted out against it was by being sexually and politically liberal as hell. I get that I see sex and many other things humans do through a lens that I purposefully smashed as much shame and judgement out of as I can.

So here lies the problem as I see it in our community of queers who dig the butch/femme label, identity, etc. Sex in most all communities has an element of shame involved in it, some more so than others but it's not as much of an individual opinion as it is a insidious social one. In my opinion when the queer community places "respect" on a toy or cock being new we add to the problem not take away from it and here's why in my opinion.

If I go back and read this whole thread I see a dividing line come pretty clear. Those who think sex is sex and doing it safely is what's paramount and those who think respect, class, love, etc is tied to the newness of object used to reach orgasm and the infrequency of one night stands being important to them.

The unsaid remark I feel is that those of us who are more liberal are slutty. Slutty because we don't place relative importance on buying a new cock or toy for a new partner. Slutty that we are less loving, respectful, classy and slutty because one night stands or sex for the sake of sex doesn't cause us moral or emotional dilemma. That we love less deeply because we have had more than a select few lovers/partners.

So in closing this note that is sure to be irritating to some what I will say is....examine the value judgements you make around sex. (I'm including myself, I need to examine my own since I got a little judgy-mcjudgerton by people expressing more conservative and emotion based opinions than I have.)

Same sex marriage is illegal based on arguments about how we have s.e.x and who we have sex with and to add additional shame around sex to me adds legitimacy to the argument that what we do in our beds is somehow not normal when it is.

Sex is normal and fun and messy and sometimes safe and sometimes unsafe, but either way you slice it sex, queer sex, het sex, kinky sex it's all sex and sex is a normal human thingy! (Yay for not science words that get the point across!)

I'm fairly certain the shaming attitude is less what people are thinking or writing openly and on purpose and more something that has evolved and come to light as a result of this thread which is both beautiful and important.

Personally I shall endeavor to spend more time having sex this week than I do talking about it which means I had better stop writing!

I am amazed at what is actually occurring here for all of us.Many of us are telling others who we truly are & in doing so pushing buttons that were previously hidden from them.When other readers Like Daktari & Pink Geek & Martina come along & language the hidden subtextual messages that are pushing the buttons everyone of us benefits form that exchange.These discomforts are truly enlightening to all of us.We become more fully aware beings.This text seen previously as a slight becomes a true learning experience.Thank you for all of it .Namaste