Infidelity

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Martina,

I'm talking about celebrities, and I'm talking about butch-femme couples

And I'm talking about Western/U.S.

Yeah, I know the history of women


Dylan

My reading was that you said there was a double standard for women. i also was talking about the U.S. -- now as well as the past.

What you said was offensive in the extreme. Women DIE in the U.S. every year after they have been accused of infidelity. It's not OK to just not include this fact in the conversation. Why is that so often the case -- that dead and beaten women go uncounted? Why is it not appalling when we do that? Or why, when we notice that we have done it, do we not take a long pause and think about it? It's not what i expect to encounter here. The fact is that misogyny in our community is a huge problem, and this illustrates it.

You KNOW the history of women, but you choose to dole out stereotypes of what people say about men vs what we say about women on an issue that has a bloody past and present for women? You KNOW, but you just don't want to mention that side of it? Please, spare me the stereotypes. i couldn't care less about your anecdotal observations about people's reactions to celebrities. i do take note that you can't be bothered to acknowledge the brutal facts of life as a woman in this culture.

Once again, Dylan, your misogyny is showing. Feel what you feel. But this isn't the place to bring it. It's hostile as hell to bring it here.

[Dylan]

Martina,

I was specifically talking about celebrities. It started with Jet's comment about how much Sandy didn't deserve "this".

I don't know how much more clear I could have made that. Should I now put a disclaimer in all of my posts?

That turned to butch-femme couples.

And somewhere in there, someone (Superfemme?) made a "never" comment

Which led to me asking about queers (specifically queer women, but it could have been reversed to include queer men) who are married, but for whatever reason don't feel they can divorce sleeping with other partners. Because I don't believe in "all" or "never" statements. I see in this thread a number of people discussing infidelity in many forms. I was specifically talking about celebrities, and since I don't much care for celebrities, I tried to turn the convo to b-fers. SPECIFICALLY. Sorry I wasn't more clear in stating I was NOT talking about the entire history of women, or even women in general. I'll be sure to be more clear next time I decide to discuss celebrity cheaters.


Dylan

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by Dylan

Martina,

I was specifically talking about celebrities. It started with Jet's comment about how much Sandy didn't deserve "this".

I don't know how much more clear I could have made that. Should I now put a disclaimer in all of my posts?

That turned to butch-femme couples.

And somewhere in there, someone (Superfemme?) made a "never" comment

Which led to me asking about queers (specifically queer women, but it could have been reversed to include queer men) who are married, but for whatever reason don't feel they can divorce sleeping with other partners. Because I don't believe in "all" or "never" statements. I see in this thread a number of people discussing infidelity in many forms. I was specifically talking about celebrities, and since I don't much care for celebrities, I tried to turn the convo to b-fers. SPECIFICALLY. Sorry I wasn't more clear in stating I was NOT talking about the entire history of women, or even women in general. I'll be sure to be more clear next time I decide to discuss celebrity cheaters.


Dylan

Oh, I don't know. Where on EARTH did I come up with that?
Because you just feed me the material Rev., I don't have to make a THING up.

[SuperFemme]

p.s. Dylan you are right about sleeping with others while legally separated. Texas and six other states don't even ALLOW legal separation. Who knew? See, I learned something. It has to be whittled down to state law really on a *legal* basis. On a *moral* basis? That is between the couple I guess but technically it IS adultery. So thanks, because I had no idea.

[AtLast]

Legal vs. moral, very different concepts. And I'm thinking about personal moral vs. public moral.... dictates, conditioning, power dynamics and money..... on and on.....

There is no way I can put every single person that is unfaithful into one specific category. Nor can I personally define what is morally right for anyone else but myself. Hummm.. actually, the term moral doesn't sit well with me anyway. And I prefer legal sanctions about marriage (straight or queer) to encoumpass no-fault divorce. I have yet to see a divorce in which fault cannot be found with both partners in some way. Sure, there are things like cheating (if partners have an agreement to be sexually mongamous) and/or abusive trump most fault variables, but I am happy that many states have moved beyond fault which has been really based upon moral issues for dissolution of marriage. There are many other variables such as children to deal with. Many of us do own property together and have set-up retirement plans together.

Along with the right to marry legally, comes all the responsibilities of marriage and divorce.

I am just not OK with someone being sexual with someone else and being with me. However, I am very clear about this at the start and want this honesty returned. Sometimes we just have things that are deal-breakers.

I'm just glad I have developed some clarity about what I can accept and not accept and an understanding that all of us are just different in these matters.

[SuperFemme]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

Legal vs. moral, very different concepts. And I'm thinking about personal moral vs. public moral.... dictates, conditioning, power dynamics and money..... on and on.....

There is no way I can put every single person that is unfaithful into one specific category. Nor can I personally define what is morally right for anyone else but myself. Hummm.. actually, the term moral doesn't sit well with me anyway. And I prefer legal sanctions about marriage (straight or queer) to encoumpass no-fault divorce. I have yet to see a divorce in which fault cannot be found with both partners in some way. Sure, there are things like cheating (if partners have an agreement to be sexually mongamous) and/or abusive trump most fault variables, but I am happy that many states have moved beyond fault which has been really based upon moral issues for dissolution of marriage. There are many other variables such as children to deal with. Many of us do own property together and have set-up retirement plans together.

Along with the right to marry legally, comes all the responsibilities of marriage and divorce.

I am just not OK with someone being sexual with someone else and being with me. However, I am very clear about this at the start and want this honesty returned. Sometimes we just have things that are deal-breakers.

I'm just glad I have developed some clarity about what I can accept and not accept and an understanding that all of us are just different in these matters.

to clarify: i used moral as in we each have our own moral compass of what is right and what is wrong.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by SuperFemme

to clarify: i used moral as in we each have our own moral compass of what is right and what is wrong.

Yeppers, I got this!