Butch Pronouns - A Questionaire

princessbelle · 09-16-2013, 09:28 AM

I would like to mention that i've never ran across anyone who would get upset when using the wrong pronoun. Especially at the beginning.

You can't tell by appearance, by gender, by anything else for that matter so there are honestly, no clues. It is just a personal decision. I also do try to steer away from it best i can, by using you or the name of the person when i'm not sure and don't want to appear rude.

Let's face it we are a community of very fluid pronouns and most of us know by now to ask which one to use for which person. At times i do feel like i need a schematic to keep up with it and boy oh boy do i falter. But, MY experience has been met with kindness and a gentle redirection.

You could tell me you are a she and the next sentence it could come out a he, but i mean no harm or disrespect. It's just hard to remember for me.

On top of that we are all evolving and growing and changing and our gender and or pronouns do too sometimes.

It's best to ask, but hard to remember. I guess would be my answer to this ever changing pronoun.

Kelt · 09-16-2013, 10:20 AM

Princessbelle,

I completely agree with you. Your point about not having external identifiers is especially pertinent online, most of the time we have no idea as to the appearance, much less preferences, of any given individual. A little flexibility goes a long way.

I think the English language has evolved significantly over time and already provides many gender neutral options as is. If the it hadn't we'd still be using a lot of thee's and thou's.

Seeing the evolution of terms in urban slang and also in personal identifiers is promising. I hope it continues and that the use of gender specifics diminishes and that people of all sorts begin to view it as less relevant in conversation.

odd_boi_out · 09-18-2013, 11:30 PM

The Butch Pronoun Questionnaire

1. How do you identify? Transmasculine, butch

2a. What is your preferred pronoun (when referencing yourself)? They

2b. Do you feel like your preferred pronoun fits you perfectly? Pretty well, I guess

2c. Did you have another or other preferred pronouns in the past? I used he for a number of years, and she when I was growing up

3a. Does your preferred pronoun vary depending on setting? I always prefer they, but in some settings and around some people I don't feel comfortable sharing that. Most people tend to default to using he for me unless I tell them otherwise.

4. How important is it to you that people use your preferred pronoun? Moderately important, though I don't get too bent out of shape about it

5a. If somebody refers to you by the pronoun, "he," and this is not your preferred pronoun, how do/would you feel? Somewhat invalidated, but I'm pretty used to it

5b. How do/would you react? I probably wouldn't do anything

6a. If somebody refers to you by the pronoun, "she," and this is not your preferred pronoun, how do/would you feel? Confused, and a little embarassed

6b. How do/would you react? Again, I probably wouldn't do anything. I'm ridiculously nonconfrontational.

7a. If somebody refers to you by the pronoun, "hy," and this is not your preferred pronoun, how do/would you feel? Really confused. I've never heard/seen anyone use the pronoun hy outside of this forum.

7b. How do/would you react? I'm not sure.

8a. If somebody refers to you by the pronoun, "zie," and this is not your preferred pronoun, how do/would you feel? A little frustrated, I think, though also impressed that the person was comfortable with nonbinary pronouns.

8b. How do/would you react? I would probably make a point to let the person know that I don't use the pronoun zie.

9a. When speaking of a specific butch, do you strive to ensure you are using that person's preferred pronoun? In general, I strive to ensure that I use people's preferred pronouns.

10a. Do you associate different traits with different butch pronouns? Not really. I used to, but as a butch who has preferred different pronouns over the course of my (rather short) life but who myself has changed very little, I no longer really associate universal distinctions between butches who identify with different pronouns.

11a. If you are referring to a butch, and you have not had the opportunity to find out what that person's preferred pronoun is, do you use a default pronoun? I would probably avoid using a pronoun or use the pronoun that others are using for them. If I really felt that I had to default, I would probably default to she. I know more butches who prefer she than those who prefer other pronouns.

11d. Would you advocate a community-wide standard in this case? If so, what would it be and why? No. Each person has the right to decide what pronoun works best for them.

12a. If you are referring to a hypothetical butch, do you use a default pronoun? Not usually, but if I had to, I'd probably use she, for the reason given above.

13a. Do you tend to partner with butches who use a certain pronoun more often than others? I've never partnered with a butch before.

14a. Are there times when you have been corrected for using an incorrect pronoun for a butch? No

Scots_On_The_Rocks · 09-28-2013, 05:02 PM

I chose to answer only the following question as that based upon my answer to it, all other questions seem to be answered by proxy.

So here is the question I referenced and my answer.

1. How do you identify?

This is an interesting question.

The need within the queer community to quantify and validate our existence and identities into neat, organized categories, has caused us to label things to the point that we have become some long string of pronouns, adjectives and nouns. And oft we are touting off this diatribe of words to people who have stopped listening after the first two words of our identity, where we are striving through words to be seen as "different, unique, and new".

Sadly, language is both evolving and stagnating to the point that people still fall through the cracks between descriptors.

And that is where I fall into this.

There are no descriptors that I feel accurately describe me without my having fallen into the "alphabet soup" and come out covered in layer upon layer of adjectives.

So, oft, "for the sake of conversation", I momentarily don the name-tag of "male-identified butch", and then promptly take it off after introductions are made, because it is my actions that determine who I am, not a string of ill-fitting words.

And due to this aforementioned need to quantify and validate that is so rampant within the queer community, I refrain from throwing gender based monikers around when referring to others in that:

1. People tend to get rather defensive and aggressive around mis-usage of the "proper" descriptors of their choice.

2. I want to be as effectively respectful of others as I possibly can in the hopes that they in turn will respect my gender expression, gender identity, and gender preference.

View Poll Results: Please choose the option that fits you best.
I am a femme and I try to never use default pronouns for butches.	33	20.50%
I am a femme, and I sometimes use "he" as a default pronoun for butches.	18	11.18%
I am a femme, and I sometimes use "she" as a default pronoun for butches.	19	11.80%
I am a femme, I sometimes use "hy" as a default pronoun for butches.	7	4.35%
I am a butch and I try to never use default pronouns for butches.	27	16.77%
I am a butch, and I sometimes use "he" as a default pronoun for butches.	17	10.56%
I am a butch, and I sometimes use "she" as a default pronoun for butches.	11	6.83%
I am a butch, I sometimes use "hy" as a default pronoun for butches.	8	4.97%
I am trans and I try to never use default pronouns for butches.	14	8.70%
I am trans, and I sometimes use "he" as a default pronoun for butches.	8	4.97%
I am trans, and I sometimes use "she" as a default pronoun for butches.	1	0.62%
I am trans, I sometimes use "hy" as a default pronoun for butches.	5	3.11%
See my answer below	11	6.83%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 161. You may not vote on this poll

09-16-2013, 09:28 AM	#1
princessbelle Infamous Member How Do You Identify?: femme Preferred Pronoun?: femme ones Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Tennessee Posts: 6,100 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 29,380 Thanked 30,499 Times in 5,201 Posts Rep Power: 21474858	Thanks to the hy's and she's and he's. I would like to mention that i've never ran across anyone who would get upset when using the wrong pronoun. Especially at the beginning. You can't tell by appearance, by gender, by anything else for that matter so there are honestly, no clues. It is just a personal decision. I also do try to steer away from it best i can, by using you or the name of the person when i'm not sure and don't want to appear rude. Let's face it we are a community of very fluid pronouns and most of us know by now to ask which one to use for which person. At times i do feel like i need a schematic to keep up with it and boy oh boy do i falter. But, MY experience has been met with kindness and a gentle redirection. You could tell me you are a she and the next sentence it could come out a he, but i mean no harm or disrespect. It's just hard to remember for me. On top of that we are all evolving and growing and changing and our gender and or pronouns do too sometimes. It's best to ask, but hard to remember. I guess would be my answer to this ever changing pronoun.

09-16-2013, 10:20 AM	#2
Kelt Senior Member How Do You Identify?: Beach Butch Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: SoCal Posts: 2,751 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 19,765 Thanked 15,305 Times in 2,539 Posts Rep Power: 21474853	Princessbelle, I completely agree with you. Your point about not having external identifiers is especially pertinent online, most of the time we have no idea as to the appearance, much less preferences, of any given individual. A little flexibility goes a long way. I think the English language has evolved significantly over time and already provides many gender neutral options as is. If the it hadn't we'd still be using a lot of thee's and thou's. Seeing the evolution of terms in urban slang and also in personal identifiers is promising. I hope it continues and that the use of gender specifics diminishes and that people of all sorts begin to view it as less relevant in conversation.

09-18-2013, 11:30 PM	#3
odd_boi_out Junior Member How Do You Identify?: transmasculine, butch Preferred Pronoun?: they Relationship Status: Single Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Bay Area CA Posts: 25 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 4 Thanked 74 Times in 17 Posts Rep Power: 1055194	The Butch Pronoun Questionnaire 1. How do you identify? Transmasculine, butch 2a. What is your preferred pronoun (when referencing yourself)? They 2b. Do you feel like your preferred pronoun fits you perfectly? Pretty well, I guess 2c. Did you have another or other preferred pronouns in the past? I used he for a number of years, and she when I was growing up 3a. Does your preferred pronoun vary depending on setting? I always prefer they, but in some settings and around some people I don't feel comfortable sharing that. Most people tend to default to using he for me unless I tell them otherwise. 4. How important is it to you that people use your preferred pronoun? Moderately important, though I don't get too bent out of shape about it 5a. If somebody refers to you by the pronoun, "he," and this is not your preferred pronoun, how do/would you feel? Somewhat invalidated, but I'm pretty used to it 5b. How do/would you react? I probably wouldn't do anything 6a. If somebody refers to you by the pronoun, "she," and this is not your preferred pronoun, how do/would you feel? Confused, and a little embarassed 6b. How do/would you react? Again, I probably wouldn't do anything. I'm ridiculously nonconfrontational. 7a. If somebody refers to you by the pronoun, "hy," and this is not your preferred pronoun, how do/would you feel? Really confused. I've never heard/seen anyone use the pronoun hy outside of this forum. 7b. How do/would you react? I'm not sure. 8a. If somebody refers to you by the pronoun, "zie," and this is not your preferred pronoun, how do/would you feel? A little frustrated, I think, though also impressed that the person was comfortable with nonbinary pronouns. 8b. How do/would you react? I would probably make a point to let the person know that I don't use the pronoun zie. 9a. When speaking of a specific butch, do you strive to ensure you are using that person's preferred pronoun? In general, I strive to ensure that I use people's preferred pronouns. 10a. Do you associate different traits with different butch pronouns? Not really. I used to, but as a butch who has preferred different pronouns over the course of my (rather short) life but who myself has changed very little, I no longer really associate universal distinctions between butches who identify with different pronouns. 11a. If you are referring to a butch, and you have not had the opportunity to find out what that person's preferred pronoun is, do you use a default pronoun? I would probably avoid using a pronoun or use the pronoun that others are using for them. If I really felt that I had to default, I would probably default to she. I know more butches who prefer she than those who prefer other pronouns. 11d. Would you advocate a community-wide standard in this case? If so, what would it be and why? No. Each person has the right to decide what pronoun works best for them. 12a. If you are referring to a hypothetical butch, do you use a default pronoun? Not usually, but if I had to, I'd probably use she, for the reason given above. 13a. Do you tend to partner with butches who use a certain pronoun more often than others? I've never partnered with a butch before. 14a. Are there times when you have been corrected for using an incorrect pronoun for a butch? No

09-28-2013, 05:02 PM	#4
Scots_On_The_Rocks Member How Do You Identify?: Genderqueer Butch Preferred Pronoun?: They, them, theirs Relationship Status: Owned by a few cats, Loved by one woman, and Looked up to by one child. Join Date: Sep 2013 Location: 47° 15' 31.4208'' N, 122° 27' 57.5028'' W Posts: 759 My Photo Gallery Thanks: 364 Thanked 1,093 Times in 387 Posts Rep Power: 19759002	I chose to answer only the following question as that based upon my answer to it, all other questions seem to be answered by proxy. So here is the question I referenced and my answer. 1. How do you identify? This is an interesting question. The need within the queer community to quantify and validate our existence and identities into neat, organized categories, has caused us to label things to the point that we have become some long string of pronouns, adjectives and nouns. And oft we are touting off this diatribe of words to people who have stopped listening after the first two words of our identity, where we are striving through words to be seen as "different, unique, and new". Sadly, language is both evolving and stagnating to the point that people still fall through the cracks between descriptors. And that is where I fall into this. There are no descriptors that I feel accurately describe me without my having fallen into the "alphabet soup" and come out covered in layer upon layer of adjectives. So, oft, "for the sake of conversation", I momentarily don the name-tag of "male-identified butch", and then promptly take it off after introductions are made, because it is my actions that determine who I am, not a string of ill-fitting words. And due to this aforementioned need to quantify and validate that is so rampant within the queer community, I refrain from throwing gender based monikers around when referring to others in that: 1. People tend to get rather defensive and aggressive around mis-usage of the "*proper*" descriptors of their choice. 2. I want to be as effectively respectful of others as I possibly can in the hopes that they in turn will respect my gender expression, gender identity, and gender preference.