For the Love of Intentions!!

[weatherboi]

Originally Posted by Girl_On_Fire

Wasn't able to quote directly from weatherboi so I'll just copy and paste:

It could also be because said offender has a pattern of being offensive and continually entering a gray area, playing devils advocate or plays the innocent uneducated community member. I think that may be what you mean by "honest belief that someone is trying to start an argument" I would like to focus on that. What do you (general you)think that is all about?? What is it that keeps a community member poking at the sore??

I don't like the sentence, "plays the innocent uneducated community member". I think this makes too much of a judgement on the part of the "general you". I agree there are plenty of people out there who like to start stuff just to start stuff. For no other reason than to pull the pin on a grenade and watch the chaos. I'm also sure there are plenty of other people (like myself) who genuinely don't realize when they're being offensive in a post due to lack of education, misunderstanding, etc. The sentence implies that everyone knows better and I think this is one of the primary reasons for the jumping of the gun that goes on in some of these threads.

I am not implying that all people know better. I have seen some community members here string along many people in the community including myself. One especially comes to mind, she claimed to be a physics student and professional football player. She was new and everybody tip toed around all her nonsense for quite some time until it was revealed she was just here to create chaos.


For people like me (and I'm not the only one, I've seen it on other posts I didn't start) it can be like being sucker-punched in the stomach to see a vehement response filled with exclamation marks and accusations and all-caps.

Understood, I can see where perceived harshness could feel yucky to you if that is your reaction. I don't take exclamation points or ALL CAPS as symbolizing a vehement response. Accusations are different, because that requires being able to defend written thoughts that are either being misunderstood or not. I think when we start threads we need to be prepared for anything because there are many members here that participate and not all people participate the same.

That could send a young, naive, uneducated, socially-clueless, and/or what-have-you person running for the hills right away with no dialogue actually having transpired. Trust me when I tell you from years of experience, this is incredibly damaging and confusing.

Well, we all have things that come up and send us running. We all have things in life that can be damaging and confusing. I have trained myself to stay out of those arenas when I am not prepared to handle the heated debate or the feedback. Nobody but ourselves can police what is good for us and what isn't. We can't expect total strangers to change themselves in this venue if they are playing by the rules and following the TOS.

Again, not everybody is genuinely clueless. However, in my line of thinking, unless the thread topic starts with something like, "I Think all Queer People Should Die" it would help to take a deep breath and ask a few questions of the person before taking out the verbal hatchet.

Think of it this way, if somebody really is trying to start something, they'll get bored pretty quickly by benign responses and questions and escalate immediately. Then you'll know how it was meant and will be able to respond accordingly.

This is not my experience. Usually for me, the benign approach escalates because the person is not receiving the kind of attention they were seeking. I have seen it happen in a thread and I have seen it happen to someone that gets singled out by a person. You can treat them benignly, nonchalantly, call them out or any number of ways to try and handle it gently, but if the person is set on getting the community or one community members attention it can turn ugly if they are doing so by crossing boundaries. Understand I do not have you in mind when I am talking about people doing this.

I am not really comfortable expecting members to post a certain way if they aren't breaking any TOS rules. I can only control what I post. I am comfortable if a community member requests something from me, I have no problem trying to accommodate them to the best of my ability if it is a reasonable request.

[Medusa]

I've mentioned this a couple of times in other discussions in the past but I feel like it's a good add-on to this discussion.

I got dog-piled 13 years ago on the Dash site and have never forgotten it! LOL

I was in my early 20s and was fairly new to the Butch/Femme dynamic (or at least naming it that, I had always dated masculine women....except for that one girl, and that's a different thread!). Anyway, I found a thread on the Dash site and there was some heated debate going on with more seasoned folks about whether or not Trans men belonged in Butch/Femme space.

YES, that discussions actually happened. YES, people were pissed.

Anyway, I was trying to wade through the cyber-slaps to see what people were actually saying and got so frustrated with the constant negativity and personal jabs that I made some foolish comment like, "Good God, we're all women here! Can't we just get along?"

I was immediately handed my ass by Toughy, Heart, and a couple of other folks!

Oh, I pouted my ass off and was mad as hell!!! How dare these people try to school me on anything! Who were they after all to talk to me like I was stupid!!

Looking back, they weren't rude to me at all. They were, however, very direct (and one of the group was pretty aggressive) and informed me that No, not ALL folks on the site were women and that I needed to think about my remarks and how it erased folks.

And I sat back and was all, "WTF do you mean we aren't all women???? Do we have vaginas or not??"

And then commence my education on how sex organs do not equal gender!
And then commence my education on how Trans men are part of the continuum of gender that I needed to learn about!
And then commence me being really, really reticent to get involved in any heavy discussions for a good long while.

Having your ass handed to you by folks out in the wide open is often not very fun and can even feel humiliating. Thing is, that's just ego talking!
I took that experience and learned from it and consider both Toughy and Heart not only my friends but my elders (in the respect that they were way more knowledgeable about gender and identity than I ever dreamed to be!)

Folks have a choice with how they digest information. They can get really defensive and butthurt and sull up or they can consider the information to see if they think it has any merit. And this isn't saying that everyone who calls you out on something is worthy of listening to, because let's face it, some folks are full of fucking shit and can't examine their own shit much less someone else's.

But if several folks are saying it? It's worth a listen!

There is a line where you can still listen to what folks have to say, respect it as best you can, but not accept it or digest it.
Good example for me is folks who are a certain slant of political party. I might think that folks who wanted Sarah Palin or Donald Trump for President are complete and utter idiots but I'll give them a listen to see why they feel that way. Because not all of them are idiots. Some of them are racists and some of them are sexist assholes and still further, some of them havent done any research at all on what Sarah Palin stands for but think that having a woman anything in political office is a grand thing.

It's always tough to see people defending their right to be racist or sizist. And even harder still when the folks defending their racism try to paint the folks calling them out as "bullies" or a "gang". I think about how much energy it takes to be defensive versus how much energy it takes to just listen.

[Girl_On_Fire]

I think it all boils down to how you respond, not what you say. If someone says something that is offensive to you, calling them out on it and pointing out how it could be offensive could actually be very beneficial to the poster. It's when someone reacts as though the information is "already known" that gets under my skin like so much sand in my bathing suit. And this is whether it's directed at me or not. I'm an underdog so I'm a fighter for the underdog.

Then again, I'd make a lousy lawyer because I truly believe people are simply making simple social errors when they post "cringe-worthy" threads or responses to threads. I want to take them aside and gently tell them they have their social skirt tucked into their pantyhose. I can't let anyone walk around with egg on their face. I can only think back to the times before I discovered I had Asperger's and would walk around with my foot permanently crammed into my mouth and had no earthly clue why I was losing friends, jobs, etc. right and left.

If only, I've said for years, if ONLY someone had taken me aside and explained what I was doing wrong. If only someone had seen my intentions instead of my behavior.

I think this life experience has given me a unique experience and a particular sensitivity when I believe anyone else's intentions might be being misunderstood.

The entire reason for this post was to make a suggestion to the general you to, the next time you see a post that makes you want to fire with both barrels, stop and put yourself in the other person's shoes for a moment before responding. At least on a public forum, you can do that. If someone says something insulting in front of you, it's much harder to control your reaction.

[imperfect_cupcake]

I think, for me, because I'm a long time poster in a few forums and I read and contribute a lot of comments in news stories and unfortunately read too many you tube (I finally stopped reading you tube ones) that when we have gone in to explain with patience or with kindness even though MY feelings were hurt (offense is the feeling of hurt combined with anger) I and many others have been bitten many, many, many times. That's why there are moderators. If it was just a matter of being polite to people who hurt us, then we wouldn't need banning or time outs or terms or service.
And really I'm pretty fed up with people on internet forums being assholes. I'm going to say most of the time they don't have a neurodiverse way of looking at things. Mostly I seem people just being ignorant, willful, rude dickheads who want to be right.

I have seen massive clashes over difference of how to speak and joke. When Americans first come to an English board I always wince. Because they start with "why are y'all so mean and rude to each other..." And then the piss taking begins. And they don't understand that the way you deal with upset is a firm clip followed by a joke. If you take the piss out of someone the best response is to take the piss out of yourself. For example, I made a post about how upset I was about sexual harassment being a daily thing in my life and it affecting how I choose to dress every day.
One of the more trollish of the regulars said "yeah Babs, poor you. It must be so hard that everyone wants to fuck you so much. You do go on a good deal about how everyone, men, women and children want you. That must be difficult."
My response? "Oh it is, truly. But its the farm animals that bother me the most."

And that is generally how people deal with stuff. You make a joke and the other person looks like a tosser. You turn and say something earnest about your feelings and its a HUGE invite for people to see you can't take a swipe and roll with it. And you becoome a target.

Here everyone watches their language, tries to accommodate and discuss. The English humour doesn't translate to here and people get very offended.

So its the person in the minority that generally has to learn. It is really, really hard to learn the right way to do things when you have been brought up for x years to do them differently. It took me FIVE years to get a grip on English culture and how to not offend everyone, everyday. And ever after 10 years I still did because I still had to translate a lot of reactions and double guess. It did not come naturally to me. It was exhausting most of the time around certain things. I hung out with Australians and Scottish to get a break. That said northern English were a bit easier for me. Bit more blunt and blabby.

But when I came home?? Holy shit I realise how much I've been enculturated!! Everyone is soooooooooooo serious and walks on egg shells and is sooooo careful about not offending people that there is a kind of "spirit" and banter and ability to truly laugh at yourself (and you mates for being twats) and just let bullshit wash off your back that is lost and I really miss. Badly.

And again, I am offending people. And yes it totally costs me potential friendships. Like it did when I moved away 16 years ago. Like it did when I moved to work in central america.

But I am the one that has to learn. As much as I want everyone else to change. And sincerely?? I really do think everyone where I am is up their own arse and needs to learn to take a fucking joke (piss take: where you tease someone with sarcasm and black humour about something sensitive in order to make them laugh at what could be depressing)and laugh at themselves and quit being so afraid of offending people.

All this pussyfooting means people give lip service to crap in order not to offend instead of actually accepting. I dunno I tend to be of the view if you are comfortable and accepting of something you can piss take. If you are scared of being offensive and looking like a bigot....

I am not a gentle person. Nor do I expect people do be gentle with me. I can take shit on the chin and suck it up most of the time. Because I've had to learn to. That doesn't make me unempathetic. There are many times I've taken people aside on boards (especially people who aren't north american/English) after they've had a good beat down and had a bit of a pep talk.

But I have had my ass handed to me by people on boards many, many times. And often with them wearing a big fuck off rubber boot to make sure I ate my words. I don't think anyone owes it to me to be gentle if I hurt them. Hey asshat you are on my foot/oops! Sorry me and my happy clown feet trying to get overly friendly! Sorry!
I stepped on someones foot, its my error. So its my apology. And I've apologized a LOT.

I don't know what peoples intentions are, but on the net? Its pretty safe to say that someone saying something in a way people find sickish to the local custom, will get served.

But there will be people that IM them and tell them "hey, look, here, it might be an idea if..."

That doesn't happen on board because... Ugh we are queers and we have to fucking discuss everything to death and besides some of the advice about the dynamics here even with my iron balls I wouldn't say on the board in public because I'm not fond of.getting my ass kicked my admin. Which they would have to do to keep the peace.

I dunno if that is of any help, but its often helpful to know that its not you, it that other people are upset and hurt. Asking them to treat someone who hurt them better than they feel they think/believe they have been treated is probably a bit much to ask of humans, but I understand you asking. Unfortunately for me, I find that because I'm the one that's asking in the wrong way and upsetting people (and this happens fairly often...) That I have to sit down and figure out another way to ask the next few people. I've already buggered the last ones there is no way I'm going to salvage those so, onwards and upwards.

Often I have to sit down and vent, complain, brain storm with someone.

I am waaaaaaay to direct sexually and freak the hell out of people. Especially butches. Jesus wept I can't tell you the mountain of offense I've caused cause get too lazy to be be coy. And come in from the side. And let someone else lead. Which sucks because I'm mostly a submissive so the ones that like me think I'm going to kick their ass all.over the block in bitch boots and wow are they ever disapointed. I'm an aggressive cunt, I know. But to someone I'm willing to turn that over to cause I think they can handle it? Big deal.

But even my exes have told to take it down a notch. So I have to often rethink my approach after I've burned six dozen chances behind me.

It sucks but its kinda my issue. I wish to fuck everyone else would cut me some slack but... I'm 44. I know that's not how life is cut.

But its good to speak up and who knows maybe a couple of people might be more up for IMing someone after a dog pile to soothe and explain. I hope so.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Holy fuckin epic post! I'm on my phone so I can only see like three sentences at a time.

Sorry!!!! I hope anyone's eyeballs bleeding at this point are able to still see something through the haze of the pink fountain my prattling on has caused.

Insomnia. Can't shut up. Probable light me on fire in a bag and I'd talk to you about it....

Oh and scuse the nonsense that's probable in that post. Autocorrect is a bitch.

<<< for bleeding eyeballs everywhere

[imperfect_cupcake]

Are you offering to cauterise the flow with that, sicko?

[Cin]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

I think, for me, because I'm a long time poster in a few forums and I read and contribute a lot of comments in news stories and unfortunately read too many you tube (I finally stopped reading you tube ones) that when we have gone in to explain with patience or with kindness even though MY feelings were hurt (offense is the feeling of hurt combined with anger) I and many others have been bitten many, many, many times. That's why there are moderators. If it was just a matter of being polite to people who hurt us, then we wouldn't need banning or time outs or terms or service.
And really I'm pretty fed up with people on internet forums being assholes. I'm going to say most of the time they don't have a neurodiverse way of looking at things. Mostly I seem people just being ignorant, willful, rude dickheads who want to be right.

That has often been my experience. I have been bitten one too many times. It really pisses me off because here I am trying to be nice even though you’ve just said something that is painful and to my mind thoughtless. For example someone says something that is misogynistic. I find this kind of thing left unchallenged is hurtful and reinforcing of oppression that women still endure day after day after day. If I say nothing it will seem as though this is acceptable. Silence is acceptance. So I try as kindly and tactfully as possible to bring this to the attention of the poster. He or she feels attacked and reacts aggressively.

It has taken me literally decades to come to terms with the reality that facts, even in abundance and presented with unusual clarity, even in the most non confrontational way, will not necessarily change a person’s mind. After that rather frustrating insight, it has taken me still longer to understand that this phenomenon of increased strength in beliefs proven to be incorrect by facts is not just someone being stubborn and purposefully obtuse. It’s just how we humans roll.

We tend to think that if people are furnished with the facts they will become enlightened; we believe that knowledge is the best remedy against ignorance and misinformation. Unfortunately, often the opposite is true. People will become more firmly entrenched in their beliefs.

The disheartening truth is that facts do not necessarily have the power to change people’s minds. The reality is that we base our opinions on our beliefs. And beliefs don’t care diddly-squat about facts. This often forces people to choose only facts that agree with their beliefs, or to twist facts into misshapen truths otherwise known as lies, or to accept wrong information as truth simply because it reinforces their views.

Apparently facts by themselves are meaningless to our brains, they are raw data that must be processed subconsciously through our feelings and experiences and filtered through the lens of our life circumstance and molded into our judgments and personal viewpoints. These beliefs are our own, formed initially from facts and information but colored, interpreted and given meaning, often beyond recognition, by our life experience and our feelings. But from what I understand our beliefs make us feel safe. Considering that information, it is understandable that people would cling tenaciously to incorrect data and wrongheaded beliefs.

So if we choose to confront someone who is being racist or sexist or any other “ism” and think we can show them the error of their ways or even if we just engage in a debate and we believe we have enough facts to change the person’s mind we should probably think again. I’m not saying we shouldn’t do it. I’m just saying the odds of a favorable outcome are slim to none.

The more threatened we feel the more tenaciously we cling to our beliefs. People feel threatened when challenged, even if we couch that challenge in hearts and flowers. And personally I try very hard to use the hearts and flowers framing approach. I always try to be thoughtful of the feelings of others even when, no, especially when, I am trying to challenge them to reconsider something offensive that they have said. I am not always successful. I’m sure what I consider to be thoughtful and kind may not feel that way to the person I am confronting. I don’t know what to do about that. I can only try to be kind. The only other option is not to confront and that’s no option at all.

I’m not saying I challenge every single offensive comment I see. That would take a level of commitment I surely do not possess. I wouldn’t even want to. It would be like being forever adrift in negativity. I prefer to give someone the benefit of the doubt whenever possible.

What I am talking about is offensiveness of a degree that if left unchallenged would carry a level of complicity. The comment, post or thread may simply be a matter of ignorance about a particular subject or a lack of experience or exposure to something and may not be a purposeful offense. However not to challenge it suggests complicity and it is also a disservice to not attempt to help a new or even an old community member come to understand something of significant importance. I just no longer imagine a favorable outcome.

Which is a good thing for me because I used to go into these kinds of situations with such naiveté it was painful to watch. I remember on the dash site I was rather viciously attacked for suggesting to someone that they might want to consider that posting butches who wear lipstick make them want to vomit might be hurtful to a butch reading these words who wears lipstick and there might be a better way to convey this information such as saying that she prefers a butch who does not wear lipstick. She was not pleased by my suggestion. And her boyfriend was not either and he came in to help her kick me around a bit. I was puzzled that neither of them was moved that their words might be hurtful to someone else. As a matter of fact they went out of their way to say even more hurtful words. It was a lesson for me. I learned not to expect people to react well to a plea for empathy. It is very difficult for many people to put themselves in another’s place and imagine how something feels to that other person. Either that or it is difficult for them to give a shit once they do imagine how it feels to others.

Anyway back to the more important and infinitely more enjoyable conversation about HB’s boobs.

[Nic]

HoneyBarbara Daktari

[imperfect_cupcake]

My boobs are fairly pleased with the naked character value asessment from Daktari. I think my boobs have said enough. Daktari? Yes?

I know that I've been dogpiled by people on the dash site and at the English site (and they are much meaner) to the point I no longer post there. There have been misunderstandings about my posts that some patriots have taken deep offense to even though I and other foreigners had tried very hard to explain they were misreading/not understanding my original post - so I eventually left the board. I got tired of being told I hate English people when I don't. I would try to discuss difficulty with understanding cultural differences at times, hoping someone would explain the back ground to a specific trait so I could.try to understand. Learning the history of beer and public houses led me to understanding pub culture.
But asking something like "why do people act like I'm going to hit them with an Axe when I nod and say 'morning' or 'afternoon' as I pass them in a field instead of just nodding back?" Became something like me attacking britishness to a handful of the posters there. The foreigners would snicker about this recognized trait and anyone who had lived abroad would try to reexplain my question and come up with a plausible answer. Most people hadn't thought that there might be a different way to be around strangers. Talking to people you dont know is invasive and rude. In person my English mates would laugh, agree and there would be a really interesting discussion around my questions.

But on line is not a group of mates. It doesn't translate the same way. And I know that some places I have left. But also understand that when talking to a highly diverse audience, the chances of me being offensive go up. Highly. I know that means I should switch voice to something a bit less... Me? And more like I am talking at school. I forget this a lots
Talking on a forum its up to the speaker to clarify and if you aren't good with words then its a hard row to hoe. Its a word based medium. That's why a lot of people only stick to the fluffy thread and games.

And why some people leave. I left the other forum because I got bored of clarifying, making apologetic jokes, putting down boundaries and having a long list of people on ignore/block.

Sometimes people's needs around forums change and they leave.

And it is hard to hear something when you feel that its not actually what you are saying. I found out the same six people would take shots at me about being very open about sex, about relationships, if I ever mentioned the words butch or femme or talked about mental health so I learned that it wasnt so much the topics but more about those six women's irritations about me as a person. But you don't know that until you watch the dynamics at a board for a while and know whom to ignore. And whom is telling you things to educate because you've made an epic fuck up in assumptions.

[Girl_On_Fire]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

I think, for me, because I'm a long time poster in a few forums and I read and contribute a lot of comments in news stories and unfortunately read too many you tube (I finally stopped reading you tube ones) that when we have gone in to explain with patience or with kindness even though MY feelings were hurt (offense is the feeling of hurt combined with anger) I and many others have been bitten many, many, many times. That's why there are moderators. If it was just a matter of being polite to people who hurt us, then we wouldn't need banning or time outs or terms or service.
And really I'm pretty fed up with people on internet forums being assholes. I'm going to say most of the time they don't have a neurodiverse way of looking at things. Mostly I seem people just being ignorant, willful, rude dickheads who want to be right.

I have seen massive clashes over difference of how to speak and joke. When Americans first come to an English board I always wince. Because they start with "why are y'all so mean and rude to each other..." And then the piss taking begins. And they don't understand that the way you deal with upset is a firm clip followed by a joke. If you take the piss out of someone the best response is to take the piss out of yourself. For example, I made a post about how upset I was about sexual harassment being a daily thing in my life and it affecting how I choose to dress every day.
One of the more trollish of the regulars said "yeah Babs, poor you. It must be so hard that everyone wants to fuck you so much. You do go on a good deal about how everyone, men, women and children want you. That must be difficult."
My response? "Oh it is, truly. But its the farm animals that bother me the most."

And that is generally how people deal with stuff. You make a joke and the other person looks like a tosser. You turn and say something earnest about your feelings and its a HUGE invite for people to see you can't take a swipe and roll with it. And you becoome a target.

Here everyone watches their language, tries to accommodate and discuss. The English humour doesn't translate to here and people get very offended.

So its the person in the minority that generally has to learn. It is really, really hard to learn the right way to do things when you have been brought up for x years to do them differently. It took me FIVE years to get a grip on English culture and how to not offend everyone, everyday. And ever after 10 years I still did because I still had to translate a lot of reactions and double guess. It did not come naturally to me. It was exhausting most of the time around certain things. I hung out with Australians and Scottish to get a break. That said northern English were a bit easier for me. Bit more blunt and blabby.

But when I came home?? Holy shit I realise how much I've been enculturated!! Everyone is soooooooooooo serious and walks on egg shells and is sooooo careful about not offending people that there is a kind of "spirit" and banter and ability to truly laugh at yourself (and you mates for being twats) and just let bullshit wash off your back that is lost and I really miss. Badly.

And again, I am offending people. And yes it totally costs me potential friendships. Like it did when I moved away 16 years ago. Like it did when I moved to work in central america.

But I am the one that has to learn. As much as I want everyone else to change. And sincerely?? I really do think everyone where I am is up their own arse and needs to learn to take a fucking joke (piss take: where you tease someone with sarcasm and black humour about something sensitive in order to make them laugh at what could be depressing)and laugh at themselves and quit being so afraid of offending people.

All this pussyfooting means people give lip service to crap in order not to offend instead of actually accepting. I dunno I tend to be of the view if you are comfortable and accepting of something you can piss take. If you are scared of being offensive and looking like a bigot....

I am not a gentle person. Nor do I expect people do be gentle with me. I can take shit on the chin and suck it up most of the time. Because I've had to learn to. That doesn't make me unempathetic. There are many times I've taken people aside on boards (especially people who aren't north american/English) after they've had a good beat down and had a bit of a pep talk.

But I have had my ass handed to me by people on boards many, many times. And often with them wearing a big fuck off rubber boot to make sure I ate my words. I don't think anyone owes it to me to be gentle if I hurt them. Hey asshat you are on my foot/oops! Sorry me and my happy clown feet trying to get overly friendly! Sorry!
I stepped on someones foot, its my error. So its my apology. And I've apologized a LOT.

I don't know what peoples intentions are, but on the net? Its pretty safe to say that someone saying something in a way people find sickish to the local custom, will get served.

But there will be people that IM them and tell them "hey, look, here, it might be an idea if..."

That doesn't happen on board because... Ugh we are queers and we have to fucking discuss everything to death and besides some of the advice about the dynamics here even with my iron balls I wouldn't say on the board in public because I'm not fond of.getting my ass kicked my admin. Which they would have to do to keep the peace.

I dunno if that is of any help, but its often helpful to know that its not you, it that other people are upset and hurt. Asking them to treat someone who hurt them better than they feel they think/believe they have been treated is probably a bit much to ask of humans, but I understand you asking. Unfortunately for me, I find that because I'm the one that's asking in the wrong way and upsetting people (and this happens fairly often...) That I have to sit down and figure out another way to ask the next few people. I've already buggered the last ones there is no way I'm going to salvage those so, onwards and upwards.

Often I have to sit down and vent, complain, brain storm with someone.

I am waaaaaaay to direct sexually and freak the hell out of people. Especially butches. Jesus wept I can't tell you the mountain of offense I've caused cause get too lazy to be be coy. And come in from the side. And let someone else lead. Which sucks because I'm mostly a submissive so the ones that like me think I'm going to kick their ass all.over the block in bitch boots and wow are they ever disapointed. I'm an aggressive cunt, I know. But to someone I'm willing to turn that over to cause I think they can handle it? Big deal.

But even my exes have told to take it down a notch. So I have to often rethink my approach after I've burned six dozen chances behind me.

It sucks but its kinda my issue. I wish to fuck everyone else would cut me some slack but... I'm 44. I know that's not how life is cut.

But its good to speak up and who knows maybe a couple of people might be more up for IMing someone after a dog pile to soothe and explain. I hope so.

I love and relate to this so much it isn't funny. I've always been crazy-blunt myself. And, I have a sarcastic streak to my humor that's often missed. (I love the "animals" comment, btw).

You're right, everybody is different and I cannot tell you how many times I've apologized in my life. Millions at least. Even if I didn't clearly understand what I did to cause offense. I used to apologize and explain so much as a child, I got in trouble for that too. I still do it.

I, too, am usually the aggressor and end up attracting a type that doesn't work with my dynamic. I am so not coy. I'm either unable to speak or I just come out with whatever. There's never a middle ground for me.

No, I don't expect anybody to walk around on eggshells. For me, though, there is a big difference between, "Why don't you go find another board to sling your sh*t on?" and "Do you realize [such and such term] might be considered offensive?"

Is that always going to happen? No. Of course not. When someone hits a nerve, someone hits a nerve. But if you're automatically assuming everyone who writes something that could be perceived as offensive is doing it on purpose, you might come across to the poster as a threat.

I realize I'm defending a small percentage of the population here. Most can take it. I know I've had to learn how to. The first accidentally-offensive post I made got such a reaction, I almost retreated but I resisted the urge and it actually turned into a good dialogue.

Seeing intentions online is nearly impossible. That's why giving people the benefit of the doubt at first might be the best approach. After that, they're fair game.

[Martina]

I think when we get into discussions about how we ought to communicate, we end up forgetting that there are usually actual serious issues getting ironed out.

One of the many has been the whole notion that there is one way of doing butch or femme. That explodes periodically, as it should.

New folk end up accidentally -- or not -- swatting a beehive now and then -- meaning one of our simmering issues. And then all hell breaks loose. It's not necessarily about the person who is getting dogpiled -- if that is part of it. It's that there is a tension under the surface, and the person has said just the right thing to cause an eruption.

We had a guy and his wife a while back who were truly into male superiority -- not just as gender play -- but as a way of life. I felt bad for them in that they were basically run off the site. I don't mean moderated. I don't recall that they were. I imagine so. I don't recall. In any case, they had few allies. Theirs was an extreme position, and it received an extreme reaction. But some of the intensity wasn't about them. It was about the fact that there is a milder form of their belief among us that is supported and practiced fairly commonly. The extreme version looked pretty ugly, and most people were shocked. But a lot of the energy behind the reaction was because we do have a "lite" version of that in our midst. I think the people who find it disturbing were ready to react. And the folks who actually had something in common with them were looking for a way of distancing themselves from that unabashed version of their gender dynamics. So the couple couldn't win.

I think they -- the couple -- were shocked by the reaction. I don't think they saw themselves as that different from many others here. (I don't know this. I am surmising.) Point is that it was a line this community drew. It was less about who these two people were as individuals -- or about anybody's communication style -- than it was that this was an issue that the community was ready to react to. And react we did.

[imperfect_cupcake]

"I, too, am usually the aggressor and end up attracting a type that doesn't work with my dynamic. I am so not coy. I'm either unable to speak or I just come out with whatever. There's never a middle ground for me."

Right?!? Ugh. Either my personality falls on the floor and smashes into 500,000 pieces and to cover that I go to "aloof" and quietly smiling (yeah. That doesn't work. That says "not interested and polite") or I'm making rude jokes, swearing and telling stories about when I cracked my skull on a rock ha!ha!ha! So when i got out of the water, I had peeled the skin off my scalp and down the front of my face, blood pouring down my face, the German dyke I was trying to impress actually screamed and when first aide came running over she asked me how I felt so I said "sexy." Ha!ha!
Them: horrified stare.
My thought: OK that's been cremated. Ah well. Maybe I should piss off... I've upset a gentile sort that likes bunnies and kittens and meditating with the spirit of the dirt. There is no way this would work if she finds that horrific instead of amusing.

But Martina is right. Some issues people deal with so often, and its such an undercurrent that someones comment may be the last straw on that for the week. And they lose it when they had been patient 35 times before. I'm very guilty of this. Especially around certain things with "not butch enough" because so many of my exes have worn make up ( usually a bit of eyeliner for that punk rock look) and have never been camping (hello, majour European mega cities, its not easy unless to have transport and money) nor fished or chopped wood or been in true darkness and they don't fix stuff- you call the repair people to do it. Who can afford the time/space/tools and training??? Not unless they grew up elsewhere in the countryside and moved to London/Paris/Madrid/Amsterdam. They dress incredibly well for what they can afford (sewing and altering mens clothes from second hand shops to fit properly) and going out to socialise - its important to peacock and look great.

So when I hear judgments coming from femmes about not butch enough" it irritates me because it shows how very tiny their experience of the world is, and how they are assuming masculinity is American Woodcutter all over the globe. With american dating culture rituals. People made jokes in London about femmes who only understood "American Butch" because its small minded and insulting to a lot of butches who are urban and not into that kind of stuff. So when I hear that complaint I feel the worth of all of my partners, who are very Cary Grant style, have a sense of grace that old film stars have... Going down the shitter cause they don't fit a Midwestern US Ideal of manhood... And once again anything seen as "unmasculine" to their locality ... And why a lot of my exes hate the term "masculine" female... Masculine = what men do in the US and there fore the ruler that butch women are held up to in order to qualify.
See? I'm ranting already. And nobody has set me off. You should see what happens when someone does. Occasionally my dates would do it on purpose just to "watch me fly" and then try and get frisky and see if they could make me laugh and calm me down enough for a shag.
Fuck knows what that's about.
Anyway bla blah...
It could be a long term pet chip on their shoulder, like mine. That and femmes being an amorphous Borg that are all similar and thus should all be treated the same formulaic way in romance or sexually or in an argument or bah! Pisses me off.
So yeah sometimes people like me have touch paper issues with things we deal with too much. And have kinda stopped caring about the feelings of people who say them. I'll totally own that.

Ironically, I'm an amazing negotiator for complaints and governance in hospitals when there has been an epic fuck up. But then I'm paid to deal with it.
I also have patience for things other people do not in term of explaining. Toughy and heart have epic amounts of patience. Bless em. But they aren't coddling either.

[Girl_On_Fire]

Originally Posted by Martina

New folk end up accidentally -- or not -- swatting a beehive now and then -- meaning one of our simmering issues. And then all hell breaks loose. It's not necessarily about the person who is getting dogpiled -- if that is part of it. It's that there is a tension under the surface, and the person has said just the right thing to cause an eruption.

-- than it was that this was an issue that the community was ready to react to. And react we did.

YES!! That's what it is that I couldn't put into words. This underlying tension that's just waiting for the right trigger to cause an explosion. Thank you!