Friendship Circles: Gender Differences in How We Do It?

[Dreamer]

I have read this thread and what Julie had to say about our conversations, and she is right, I will ask her each day who she has spoken to and how they are doing and yes when she asks me the same question I will usually respond with No I have not but I should get onto that. I have sat here going through my mind why I do not tend to call people and many thoughts have gone through it.

For me I have a few people I would call close friends. When I was living in San Francisco we would get together and I had an amazing time just hanging out, getting to know and having fun with them. When I had to leave and come back to Australia it was like coming back to another world, San Francisco was the first place I could truly be who I was, I let the butch out and I felt alive and finally free to be me. Then when I came back here it was totally different and it was hard, I felt like part of me was left in the States and it was only when I went back to visit or Julie came to me that I felt reconnected to myself.

I did not want to let go of the friendships I had made in the States but due to some personal situations and the fact that I no longer felt that I was doing anything that was worth talking about (at least from my side) I let them slide. I own that and I am sorry that I did, but hopefully that will change once I return.

Most of the friends I made were actually other butches/Ftm’s, I was able to relax around them a lot more and being new to the butch/femme dynamic I must say I was pretty shy around the femmes.
I am really glad that Julie has other femmes that she can talk to, that she can talk to them about anything and that they can help her still feel connected and remind her of who she is, she needs that occasionally.

[Martina]

I don't have butch friends or femme friends of gay friends or straight friends. I have friends. Gender is irrelevant. I actually have a diverse group of friends. Most of my life, most of my friends have been guys, and most of those straight. But they are as different from one another as it's possible for people to be. What they tend to have in common is that they are decent, kind, and down-to-earth. And they tend to be smart and moderately to very well educated. I don't seek that out, but that's what sticks. I guess that's who I feel most comfortable with.

I have a very close femme friend. I do not interact any differently with her than I do with other friends. We are also very very different as femmes and date very very different kinds of butches. We talk politics, history, work (especially teaching), food, and just about the daily wonders and challenges of life. I talk those things with all my friends, except the one who is on the autism spectrum. He has flat affect and doesn't experience too much wonder (strangely, he is in an artistic profession). But he is funny as hell and incredibly well read (and remembers it all). And we do talk food (both being food addicts).

I don't interact any differently with female friends than I do with male. If people don't like to talk, we're not likely to be friends. And I have certainly found chatty friends of every gender. The three close straight cis-gendered men friends I have are the most feminist people I know -- and it's not affected. It's in the bones. They truly respect women. Good good people. Sane, funny, loving. Wonderful fathers. I don't have to occlude any part of who I am to be around them. If I did, I wouldn't waste time on the friendship.

The whole "femme friend" thing makes me cringe. I get being understood by people who are like you. But I don't think of femmes and butches in terms of the "girls" and the "guys." The ones I like don't really fit into those categories very neatly. And at my age, I am not exploring my own gender identity. I don't need to see others like myself to feel at home with myself. I don't decompress especially in butch-femme company or even in queer company. I do with close friends, many of whom are queer. But not all. I actually don't find that I have a ton in common with people who strongly identify as butch or femme, people for whom it is a primary identifier.

I don't behave differently around one gender than the other. In fact, I have been criticized for that by butches. There is sometimes the expectation that femmes will flirt with and flatter all butches. I am interested romantically and/or sexually in very few people. I do not treat an entire category of people like potential dates. They are not. A very few people are potential dates. Also, I do not need most butches to see ME as someone they'd like to date. How exhausting would that be?

I have a pretty good butch friend. She has more friends than I will ever have. She has a gift for intimacy, I always tell her. She's also beautiful -- and she works at it. She also loves to shop and CARES about clothes. She and I rarely talk about that stuff because I don't care about it, but that is very much part of who she is. She does not isolate or care about sports or vehicles. She is a hot smart butch, and she doesn't let anyone tell her what that should mean to her.

[Julie]

I find it interesting that you would *cringe,* at the whole "femme friend," thing. For so many of us, we have come here to this space for the connection of others who share a life many of us live. Be it Femme, Butch, Trans, Queer, Lesbian, Bisexual or any of the other identifiers that a person holds or doesn't hold. But the fact is, this space is safe, because we are understood without explanation. At least this has been the case for me. And in real life, be it on the telephone or over coffee... It is comfortable and safe for me. One of the many reasons why the BFP Reunion is so important for me. There, I can get dressed for an evening of elegance and end the night with my people in my pajama's. And they are my people, because they get the core of who I am, regardless if we will be friends outside of that space.

I am grateful for my "Femme friends," and I am grateful for my butch, trans, straight and other friends who are in my life. But there is something quite magical when you can engage with another human being who lives your life, as close to living it as possible. Who you can share intimacies of your personal life and they truly get it. No explanations needed.

I most definitely have different relationships with femme's vs. straight women. Not that one is more important than the other. I believe we are dynamic in nature. It is about communication and speaking the same language.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Julie

I find it interesting that you would *cringe,* at the whole "femme friend," thing.

I don't cringe at having femme friends. I cringe at the whole "girlfriends" thing, the labeling of some friends by gender. Girlfriends vs. what? Friends? Not boyfriends surely. Does that mean they are supposed to provide certain kinds of support or even share a certain kind of gender performance? I have friends who are femme, not femme friends.

Originally Posted by Julie

And they are my people, because they get the core of who I am. . . . But there is something quite magical when you can engage with another human being who lives your life, as close to living it as possible. Who you can share intimacies of your personal life and they truly get it. No explanations needed.

Yeah, I don't get this. My close close friend who is femme does not "get" me any better than my straight male friend. They both "get" me, the particular person who is me. I have ID'd as femme since the early eighties. I have explored my gender identity as much as most people in our community, although certainly less than many. But, no, I do not think that other femmes live my life just because they are femme. Very likely they do not, in fact. I may ID as femme. But my relationships do not conform enough to a pattern that I can say that other femmes live my life.

HoneyB had a great rant on this once. I am too lazy to go find it. It may not be here anyway.

[Julie]

Originally Posted by Martina

I don't cringe at having femme friends. I cringe at the whole "girlfriends" thing, the labeling of some friends by gender. Girlfriends vs. what? Friends? Not boyfriends surely. Does that mean they are supposed to provide certain kinds of support or even share a certain kind of gender performance? I have friends who are femme, not femme friends.

Cringing is a strong word and holds a negative connotation. No, it does not imply they are supposed to do anything. Personal relationships are simply that, they are personal and all relationships people hold should be honored and respected. How a person defines those relationships should be respected by all people. Unless of course, the person feels the need to judge.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Julie

Cringing is a strong word and holds a negative connotation. No, it does not imply they are supposed to do anything. Personal relationships are simply that, they are personal and all relationships people hold should be honored and respected. How a person defines those relationships should be respected by all people. Unless of course, the person feels the need to judge.

Well, I don't know that I feel the NEED, but I do clearly have a judgement. It seems limiting, and even trivializing, and laden with gendered expectations to call some friends girlfriends and other friends just friends.

[Julie]

Originally Posted by Martina

Well, I don't know that I feel the NEED, but I do clearly have a judgement. It seems limiting, and even trivializing, and laden with gendered expectations to call some friends girlfriends and other friends just friends.

There are no gendered expectations Martina. You create your own expectations based on the box you have created for yourself. If you are uncomfortable using the term "Femme Friends," or Femme Sisters," or "Girlfriends," then those are your choices. I do not begrudge you for not having these relationships and certainly would not shame you for not and most definitely would never cringe at the thought of you having friends with any member of any population, because I respect the relationships of others.

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by Julie

I find it interesting that you would *cringe,* at the whole "femme friend," thing. For so many of us, we have come here to this space for the connection of others who share a life many of us live. Be it Femme, Butch, Trans, Queer, Lesbian, Bisexual or any of the other identifiers that a person holds or doesn't hold. But the fact is, this space is safe, because we are understood without explanation. At least this has been the case for me. And in real life, be it on the telephone or over coffee... It is comfortable and safe for me. One of the many reasons why the BFP Reunion is so important for me. There, I can get dressed for an evening of elegance and end the night with my people in my pajama's. And they are my people, because they get the core of who I am, regardless if we will be friends outside of that space.

I am grateful for my "Femme friends," and I am grateful for my butch, trans, straight and other friends who are in my life. But there is something quite magical when you can engage with another human being who lives your life, as close to living it as possible. Who you can share intimacies of your personal life and they truly get it. No explanations needed.

I most definitely have different relationships with femme's vs. straight women. Not that one is more important than the other. I believe we are dynamic in nature. It is about communication and speaking the same language.

Julie-

You pretty much nailed the crux of how I feel about some of my friendships with Femmes. I've never sought out Femmes as friends per se, merely had friendships happen organically (as I feel they should for me) but there is definitely something super sacred about that space that is created between two Femmes. (speaking, of course, from my real-world, real-time, actual lived experience)

You and I have had long discussions about desire that feel almost like a "twin" language. I don't have those kinds of discussions with my straight women friends, my male friends, or my Butch friends. Sometimes because e don't get that part of one another and sometimes because it's not safe space.

For me, the space *is* different with Femmes in friendship. Different in wonderful, powerful ways. And I keep coming back to those spaces over and over because something resonates so hard there. I have the ability to hang out on Facebook or in real-time spaces when I want/seek/am amenable to mixed space (mixed space speaking of genders, id's, ways of being). I come back to the Planet over and over (and have enjoyed spaces like the Planet for years) because there IS difference in these spaces and your random "I Love Cooking" websites. You get that, I know. <3

[Medusa]

And I'll add: To me, the term "girlfriends" actually feels very honoring.

[Julie]

Originally Posted by Medusa

And I'll add: To me, the term "girlfriends" actually feels very honoring.

Me too Medusa. I have never felt so wrapped up in love, as I have in the presence of my "girlfriends." and that is not to say, our partners don't make us feel this way - but it is very different and it is very sacred.

[Cin]

Maybe it's a femme thing because I never had that kind of relationship or felt that way about butches. I haven't had a lot of close butch friends. Actually I don't think I've had any really close butch friends. And some of the butch friends I had were kind of judgmental and the relationships themselves were complicated. The femme one's too. And the gay and lesbian ones as well. Oddly I felt more relaxed around my straight buddies. My best friend for years was a straight guy. I felt very at ease with him. I never felt I was being judged for being too much or too little anything. Of course I might have less expectations for a straight man than I do for another queer. And maybe what we wanted and needed from each other is different and less fraught with ideals.

Yet I do enjoy coming here and talking to people who understand my preference for a particular kind of partner. People familiar with the butch femme dynamic specifically. But within that dynamic exists a multitude of possibilities.

Although sometimes there is a tendency to have border conflicts around the edges of identities mostly I am grateful to have a place like this to come and share stuff.

[Martina]

I think if we assume that all femmes have these kinds of connections or are so similar that we live each other's lives, then we are excluding a great many femmes. I resist that.

[Julie]

Originally Posted by Martina

I think if we assume that all femmes have these kinds of connections or are so similar that we live each other's lives, then we are excluding a great many femmes. I resist that.

You make the assumption that we assume this of all femmes. That is another box you have created. No, I do not assume any such thing. I assume we respect one another as individuals and honor the friendships others have created.