Friendship Circles: Gender Differences in How We Do It?

[Martina]

I don't have butch friends or femme friends of gay friends or straight friends. I have friends. Gender is irrelevant. I actually have a diverse group of friends. Most of my life, most of my friends have been guys, and most of those straight. But they are as different from one another as it's possible for people to be. What they tend to have in common is that they are decent, kind, and down-to-earth. And they tend to be smart and moderately to very well educated. I don't seek that out, but that's what sticks. I guess that's who I feel most comfortable with.

I have a very close femme friend. I do not interact any differently with her than I do with other friends. We are also very very different as femmes and date very very different kinds of butches. We talk politics, history, work (especially teaching), food, and just about the daily wonders and challenges of life. I talk those things with all my friends, except the one who is on the autism spectrum. He has flat affect and doesn't experience too much wonder (strangely, he is in an artistic profession). But he is funny as hell and incredibly well read (and remembers it all). And we do talk food (both being food addicts).

I don't interact any differently with female friends than I do with male. If people don't like to talk, we're not likely to be friends. And I have certainly found chatty friends of every gender. The three close straight cis-gendered men friends I have are the most feminist people I know -- and it's not affected. It's in the bones. They truly respect women. Good good people. Sane, funny, loving. Wonderful fathers. I don't have to occlude any part of who I am to be around them. If I did, I wouldn't waste time on the friendship.

The whole "femme friend" thing makes me cringe. I get being understood by people who are like you. But I don't think of femmes and butches in terms of the "girls" and the "guys." The ones I like don't really fit into those categories very neatly. And at my age, I am not exploring my own gender identity. I don't need to see others like myself to feel at home with myself. I don't decompress especially in butch-femme company or even in queer company. I do with close friends, many of whom are queer. But not all. I actually don't find that I have a ton in common with people who strongly identify as butch or femme, people for whom it is a primary identifier.

I don't behave differently around one gender than the other. In fact, I have been criticized for that by butches. There is sometimes the expectation that femmes will flirt with and flatter all butches. I am interested romantically and/or sexually in very few people. I do not treat an entire category of people like potential dates. They are not. A very few people are potential dates. Also, I do not need most butches to see ME as someone they'd like to date. How exhausting would that be?

I have a pretty good butch friend. She has more friends than I will ever have. She has a gift for intimacy, I always tell her. She's also beautiful -- and she works at it. She also loves to shop and CARES about clothes. She and I rarely talk about that stuff because I don't care about it, but that is very much part of who she is. She does not isolate or care about sports or vehicles. She is a hot smart butch, and she doesn't let anyone tell her what that should mean to her.

[Julie]

I find it interesting that you would *cringe,* at the whole "femme friend," thing. For so many of us, we have come here to this space for the connection of others who share a life many of us live. Be it Femme, Butch, Trans, Queer, Lesbian, Bisexual or any of the other identifiers that a person holds or doesn't hold. But the fact is, this space is safe, because we are understood without explanation. At least this has been the case for me. And in real life, be it on the telephone or over coffee... It is comfortable and safe for me. One of the many reasons why the BFP Reunion is so important for me. There, I can get dressed for an evening of elegance and end the night with my people in my pajama's. And they are my people, because they get the core of who I am, regardless if we will be friends outside of that space.

I am grateful for my "Femme friends," and I am grateful for my butch, trans, straight and other friends who are in my life. But there is something quite magical when you can engage with another human being who lives your life, as close to living it as possible. Who you can share intimacies of your personal life and they truly get it. No explanations needed.

I most definitely have different relationships with femme's vs. straight women. Not that one is more important than the other. I believe we are dynamic in nature. It is about communication and speaking the same language.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Julie

I find it interesting that you would *cringe,* at the whole "femme friend," thing.

I don't cringe at having femme friends. I cringe at the whole "girlfriends" thing, the labeling of some friends by gender. Girlfriends vs. what? Friends? Not boyfriends surely. Does that mean they are supposed to provide certain kinds of support or even share a certain kind of gender performance? I have friends who are femme, not femme friends.

Originally Posted by Julie

And they are my people, because they get the core of who I am. . . . But there is something quite magical when you can engage with another human being who lives your life, as close to living it as possible. Who you can share intimacies of your personal life and they truly get it. No explanations needed.

Yeah, I don't get this. My close close friend who is femme does not "get" me any better than my straight male friend. They both "get" me, the particular person who is me. I have ID'd as femme since the early eighties. I have explored my gender identity as much as most people in our community, although certainly less than many. But, no, I do not think that other femmes live my life just because they are femme. Very likely they do not, in fact. I may ID as femme. But my relationships do not conform enough to a pattern that I can say that other femmes live my life.

HoneyB had a great rant on this once. I am too lazy to go find it. It may not be here anyway.

[Julie]

Originally Posted by Martina

I don't cringe at having femme friends. I cringe at the whole "girlfriends" thing, the labeling of some friends by gender. Girlfriends vs. what? Friends? Not boyfriends surely. Does that mean they are supposed to provide certain kinds of support or even share a certain kind of gender performance? I have friends who are femme, not femme friends.

Cringing is a strong word and holds a negative connotation. No, it does not imply they are supposed to do anything. Personal relationships are simply that, they are personal and all relationships people hold should be honored and respected. How a person defines those relationships should be respected by all people. Unless of course, the person feels the need to judge.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Julie

Cringing is a strong word and holds a negative connotation. No, it does not imply they are supposed to do anything. Personal relationships are simply that, they are personal and all relationships people hold should be honored and respected. How a person defines those relationships should be respected by all people. Unless of course, the person feels the need to judge.

Well, I don't know that I feel the NEED, but I do clearly have a judgement. It seems limiting, and even trivializing, and laden with gendered expectations to call some friends girlfriends and other friends just friends.

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by Julie

I find it interesting that you would *cringe,* at the whole "femme friend," thing. For so many of us, we have come here to this space for the connection of others who share a life many of us live. Be it Femme, Butch, Trans, Queer, Lesbian, Bisexual or any of the other identifiers that a person holds or doesn't hold. But the fact is, this space is safe, because we are understood without explanation. At least this has been the case for me. And in real life, be it on the telephone or over coffee... It is comfortable and safe for me. One of the many reasons why the BFP Reunion is so important for me. There, I can get dressed for an evening of elegance and end the night with my people in my pajama's. And they are my people, because they get the core of who I am, regardless if we will be friends outside of that space.

I am grateful for my "Femme friends," and I am grateful for my butch, trans, straight and other friends who are in my life. But there is something quite magical when you can engage with another human being who lives your life, as close to living it as possible. Who you can share intimacies of your personal life and they truly get it. No explanations needed.

I most definitely have different relationships with femme's vs. straight women. Not that one is more important than the other. I believe we are dynamic in nature. It is about communication and speaking the same language.

Julie-

You pretty much nailed the crux of how I feel about some of my friendships with Femmes. I've never sought out Femmes as friends per se, merely had friendships happen organically (as I feel they should for me) but there is definitely something super sacred about that space that is created between two Femmes. (speaking, of course, from my real-world, real-time, actual lived experience)

You and I have had long discussions about desire that feel almost like a "twin" language. I don't have those kinds of discussions with my straight women friends, my male friends, or my Butch friends. Sometimes because e don't get that part of one another and sometimes because it's not safe space.

For me, the space *is* different with Femmes in friendship. Different in wonderful, powerful ways. And I keep coming back to those spaces over and over because something resonates so hard there. I have the ability to hang out on Facebook or in real-time spaces when I want/seek/am amenable to mixed space (mixed space speaking of genders, id's, ways of being). I come back to the Planet over and over (and have enjoyed spaces like the Planet for years) because there IS difference in these spaces and your random "I Love Cooking" websites. You get that, I know. <3

[Julie]

Originally Posted by Martina

Well, I don't know that I feel the NEED, but I do clearly have a judgement. It seems limiting, and even trivializing, and laden with gendered expectations to call some friends girlfriends and other friends just friends.

There are no gendered expectations Martina. You create your own expectations based on the box you have created for yourself. If you are uncomfortable using the term "Femme Friends," or Femme Sisters," or "Girlfriends," then those are your choices. I do not begrudge you for not having these relationships and certainly would not shame you for not and most definitely would never cringe at the thought of you having friends with any member of any population, because I respect the relationships of others.

[Medusa]

And I'll add: To me, the term "girlfriends" actually feels very honoring.

[Julie]

Originally Posted by Medusa

And I'll add: To me, the term "girlfriends" actually feels very honoring.

Me too Medusa. I have never felt so wrapped up in love, as I have in the presence of my "girlfriends." and that is not to say, our partners don't make us feel this way - but it is very different and it is very sacred.

[Martina]

I think if we assume that all femmes have these kinds of connections or are so similar that we live each other's lives, then we are excluding a great many femmes. I resist that.

[Julie]

Originally Posted by Martina

I think if we assume that all femmes have these kinds of connections or are so similar that we live each other's lives, then we are excluding a great many femmes. I resist that.

You make the assumption that we assume this of all femmes. That is another box you have created. No, I do not assume any such thing. I assume we respect one another as individuals and honor the friendships others have created.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Medusa

For example, do you feel like Femmes generally connect with their girlfriends more often through text or phone?

This is from the Original Post. It assumes that femmes' femme friends are their girlfriends.

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by Julie

You make the assumption that we assume this of all femmes. That is another box you have created. No, I do not assume any such thing. I assume we respect one another as individuals and honor the friendships others have created.

And I think that we agree that people are allowed to refer to their friends consensually with whatever language those friendships have agreed upon.

That's the amazing thing about how groups of friends or even friendship couples form. Those friends decide between themselves what feels right. Those friends decide what feels honoring and true. I kinda dig that people will gravitate toward one another based on the things they find in common. I have found that a great many of my girlfriends embrace the idea that Femme space is sacred.
There is certainly no contest happening in friendship spaces with which is more special or sacred, I think those sacred spaces are created in the way that we honor it.

<3

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by Martina

This is from the Original Post. It assumes that femmes' femme friends are their girlfriends.

*sigh*

I am speaking in my personal vernacular. (as most people often do when writing a post).

You certainly do not have to adopt my language. Insert "one another" or whatever makes you most comfortable so that this discussion can continue about the subject and not the semantics.

[Julie]

Originally Posted by Martina

This is from the Original Post. It assumes that femmes' femme friends are their girlfriends.

Again, you are making assumptions. This was simply used as an example. It feels like you are picking out key words and dissecting them. This is about relationships and the friendships we have forged and how we navigate them.

Interesting based on this example the OP gave, we heard from butches as well. I wonder why they felt okay to respond? - This question asked based on your reaction to the example.

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Julie

I wonder why they felt okay to respond? - This question asked based on your reaction to the example.

Because other questions were asked as well. ??

[Dreamer]

I responded as I read the example given by the OP as just that an example and how it may have related to her, I then looked at how I would relate to the actual question and adjusted it to fit my status. I guess I assumed everyone would do the same, but then I out of everyone should know, never assume because always someone will prove you wrong.

[Julie]

Originally Posted by Martina

Because other questions were asked as well. ??

Yet, you chose to dissect that one.

And with that said... Back to the OP question. I think this has the opportunity to be a really healthy dialogue. I am interested in learning more about the relationships we have with others and how others navigate them. I loved reading Dreamer's words to this question. I already knew the reasoning behind much of it, but it was nice to see it here. I think whenever we are given the opportunity to express ourselves in an open forum and share our experiences, we learn about one another.

We are talking about friendships and in the process... Who knows, a few new friendships might evolve.

Love this topic!!!

[Martina]

Originally Posted by Julie

Yet, you chose to dissect that one.

Indeed, because that one purportedly addressed me AS it excluded me. But, I agree. Back to the topic.

[Cin]

Maybe it's a femme thing because I never had that kind of relationship or felt that way about butches. I haven't had a lot of close butch friends. Actually I don't think I've had any really close butch friends. And some of the butch friends I had were kind of judgmental and the relationships themselves were complicated. The femme one's too. And the gay and lesbian ones as well. Oddly I felt more relaxed around my straight buddies. My best friend for years was a straight guy. I felt very at ease with him. I never felt I was being judged for being too much or too little anything. Of course I might have less expectations for a straight man than I do for another queer. And maybe what we wanted and needed from each other is different and less fraught with ideals.

Yet I do enjoy coming here and talking to people who understand my preference for a particular kind of partner. People familiar with the butch femme dynamic specifically. But within that dynamic exists a multitude of possibilities.

Although sometimes there is a tendency to have border conflicts around the edges of identities mostly I am grateful to have a place like this to come and share stuff.