Friendship Circles: Gender Differences in How We Do It?

[girl_dee]

i don't have any femme friends here, but have some androgynous folks i go back with a long way that i connect with about every week, and a couple of butch friends.

i REALLY long for a femme bestie, a close friend here, in person, even to see once in a while.. i am very selective and don't let people get close to me easily.

But as far as friends go i don't care about gender

[imperfect_cupcake]

I get what Martina was saying. My friends are my friends and I don't like gender labeling them. I did think this was great before I left for the UK, but once I got to a place where sorting people into "gets me" by gender didn't work (too much variance) it was really, really pointless.

I have extremely close friends that are: trans, intersex, femme (of the "meh" ID kind, meaning yeah, I'm femme, meh), butches (of the afore mentioned meh), some who are quite proud of their ID but other than when they are shouting it on the stage really never ever bring it up, some who call themselves "dolly mixture/liqourice all sorts", butch (of the strongly ID'd but not really into dicussing it too much as it seems a bit moot), bisexual cis queerdos, I can go on.

I just don't ever say "this is my femme friend" as tbh they would find it just as weird as if I introduced them as "my lesbian woman female friend".

I don't see femme as a point of pride. I'm not ashamed of it. It just is. kinda like my tits. It's there, it's what it is, it's perfectly acceptable and ... meh.

So although I don't cringe when people do it, it does seem "foreign and clunky" and not really something I can relate to much. I know I used to... but I don't really have that anymore.

My friends are more divided, to be honest, in my head, by introvert/extrovert scales. I can talk to my friends who are butch about fashion and politics just like my mates who are femme. And my cis straight bloke mates are THE BIGGEST GOSSIPS EVER, honest to fuck if I was going to base one gender trait on my own grouping... cis heterosexual men are massive gossips. and Unca ted (a ver old mate of mine) never shuts up. like, ever.

but he's an extrovert, like me.

I just don't see it reflecting my life, that's all. the diversity between anyone of them and another intersex man, or another femme or another post-modern butch, or another transwoman or another ... it is really... there are more differences intragender than intergender.

If I get asked that "well why do you come here then" my big answer is "I have no idea. cause I know people here?" cause a lot of the stuff I read sometimes makes me go "huh??? since WHEN?"

I tend not to date butches that are all about being butch and me being femme. or whittering on about "the dance"
I like sex with butches. b-f is my sexuality. that's about as far as it goes. b-f really, for me, all it is, is about the sex. I'm going to be totally honest. I like a female person who has a cock (in it's various forms, flesh and silicone) and sometimes it's nice if they have a vagina and a clit, though it doesn't have to be stated that way. that's kinda it.

I also like them to dress in men's/tomboy clothes, be sexually dominant and kinky dirty fukers, but that has nothing to do with gender.

so, like some people are lesbians but don't eat lentils or listen to tracy chapman, I'm b-f sexual but I don't dig the binary gender behaviour assumptions. I guess I'm not Old School American b-f. that's ok. I'm totally fine with that.

if someone finds me a chair, it's for me, and because they adore me and care about me, not because I'm a femme - or it bloody well better be for me and not cause of my gender grouping. I do things for people because I love and care about them. I don't care what gender they are. I got so confused with this when I got back... all the rules I forgot about during dating... I just forgot about how things are done here. I got used to just being Babs who happens to be femme. and we are friends because of our connection. I had close mates who were butch that I slept with in the same bed and cuddled with.
And talked about stuff. I still do. it doesn't *feel* like I'm talking to someone of another gender... I'm talking to another *person* independant from me.

However, if I'm talking to someone who keep gendering me, I really feel it. and I get annoyed. One of my friends always unlocks my bike for me. But she does it with such care that it doesn't feel like "Must Unlock Femme Bike" which coming home, I have to say I can *really* pick up on. And it feels weird to me. But a lot of girls like it here. Cool. If that's how you reach your bonna, Tally Ho! and all that.

But it feels clunky, odd and foreign to me. And I feel lonely when someone does that. I feel like a cardboard cutout of a femme unit. I feel erased as a person. I like being someone's *friend*. ME. then, later, you can, yannknow, look down my top. that's fine lol.

[Gemme]

Does anyone really introduce folks as 'this is my femme friend, Veronica' or 'this is my butch friend, Chris'?

Putting it like that, I totally see what you and Martina are touching on.

But I do have femme friends. And butch friends. And Trans friends. But I don't introduce them as such. Not that I can think of, anyway. I might use it as a descriptor, such as, "You remember me talking about my friend, Kate, right? She's the blonde femme that was in the play last month" but that's about all I can think of as to how I might use that reference.

I do feel that we bond stronger with those who share the same/similar experiences and views. For me, that tends to be mostly with female-bodies folks, no matter their id. Whittling it down from there, I've lived my life as a straight person and a bisexual at different times and now am finally home with Queer, so I feel that I have a lot in common with just about everyone. I look pretty damn hot in a tie and fedora too, but I'm not sure that has anything to do with anything. Or friends. Unless a bunch of us got together and all looked hot together, but then I wouldn't give a rat's ass about anyone's identity. They would all be my fucking hot friends. In ties and fedoras.

I see how my personal identity affects the way my friendships flow. I'm a girl. For some folks, that doesn't affect anything but I feel a separate connection with other girls and, for some of my butch and trans friends, there is a thread of tenderness that I don't always see with others that don't know I'm a girl. So, it's not just about gender and it's not just about identity and it's not just about how each person presents theirselves but how their identity and gender present to mine and vice versa.

Don't get me wrong. If I love you enough, I'll kill for you, no matter how you identify. But the pain inflicted and the time it takes for the other person to die might change according to how you and I connect.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Gemme, I'm not saying you shouldn't feel that way, if you do, you do. I love my girly shit and I like have mates to dig my girly shit with me but here's the superise - sometimes that's a cis het bloke or even a butch. yep. I can sit down and go through an asian fashion magazine and talk about the photographs and styles with any number of my friends, regardless of gender. cause my friends are mostly pretty urban, artsy, alternative and metrosexual. all of us, regardless of out gender, if we need something fixed, call Ken or Y. Mainly cause he has a job that fixes shit. Or Y cause she's inclined like that. Y is girly (no ID) btw. Ken isn't girly, but he has some great fashion style.

I think it's who your friends with. I don't have friends who really play any sports. a few who watch them. Sonja (pansexual girly girl) is probably the biggest hockey fan. She goes to a cafe to watch the game and flirt with the italian barista cause when she asks if any of us want to watch is usually no.

Unca ted paints, sings in a band, Jess plays drums and fixes bikes and helps out at the boozecan (illegal drinking establishment that features new bands etc) and designs new stage set ups and room decor. Ken makes habitats for the vancouver aquarium and paints and is probably the biggest lesbian I know when it comes to girls (falls in love in four seconds, writes dedicational poetry, wants them to move in after three months, and gets deeply upset howl at the moon heart broken when it ends. he does my head in sometimes), Y works for people who do animal counts in the wild, she's often off on horseback for a couple of weeks. Em is a martha stewart clone that wears nothing but flannel and is an office manager. I could go on.
I miss my London friends for certain things but not because they got me more as a girl. they got certain things like... my exwife was *the* person to take shopping - she was a butch version of Gok Wan (English fashion consultant). although my freinds here are fashionable, they aren't as uber fashion minded as the ones in London and I miss that.
except I was the only one that didn't watch soccer and I bloody hated world cup years. Plus I miss the use of irony (sarcasm), vular humour and insults. I miss the peacocking.

yes I like having "girls night" cocktails and poker. but "girls night" is anyone female. I sometimes just want a penis free room. We swap stories of the biggest bruise we ever got, how many people with a bent dick did you see, have you ever tried X kind of sex, kerri usually bitches about her job (she's a grip for movies - cis straight girl) till we slip into a coma. JJ talks about their latest baking experiment (tgbutch) and we pretend to be interested.

that's kinda how my life is. I know people have really different lives from me. I'm well aware of that by now lol. But I'm also saying that it's not abnormal for plenty of us to just not see things that way. And I only describe people's gender trait "femme" as I would "blonde" if it was *relevant* to the conversation. But lots of people, I notice here, without relevance say "me and my femme friend went out for coffee ans talked about the movie we saw"

It's that I don't get. why is it relevant? I used descriptors here for point making. Otherwise I wouldn't have botherd. Why would I say "my tgbutch mate JJ talks about baking bread till they bore everyone" just generally? it just seems odd to me when I don't see the relevance. And sticks out like someone saying "big tit barb came over for coffee yesterday, we played monopoly" ???? y'know?

I don't get it. and it's not something I'm personally comfy with. But I get that a lot of you enjoy it. I just don't. that's all.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by honeybarbara

Gemme, I'm not saying you shouldn't feel that way, if you do, you do. I love my girly shit and I like have mates to dig my girly shit with me but here's the superise - sometimes that's a cis het bloke or even a butch. yep. I can sit down and go through an asian fashion magazine and talk about the photographs and styles with any number of my friends, regardless of gender. cause my friends are mostly pretty urban, artsy, alternative and metrosexual. all of us, regardless of out gender, if we need something fixed, call Ken or Y. Mainly cause he has a job that fixes shit. Or Y cause she's inclined like that. Y is girly (no ID) btw. Ken isn't girly, but he has some great fashion style.

I think it's who your friends with. I don't have friends who really play any sports. a few who watch them. Sonja (pansexual girly girl) is probably the biggest hockey fan. She goes to a cafe to watch the game and flirt with the italian barista cause when she asks if any of us want to watch is usually no.

Unca ted paints, sings in a band, Jess plays drums and fixes bikes and helps out at the boozecan (illegal drinking establishment that features new bands etc) and designs new stage set ups and room decor. Ken makes habitats for the vancouver aquarium and paints and is probably the biggest lesbian I know when it comes to girls (falls in love in four seconds, writes dedicational poetry, wants them to move in after three months, and gets deeply upset howl at the moon heart broken when it ends. he does my head in sometimes), Y works for people who do animal counts in the wild, she's often off on horseback for a couple of weeks. Em is a martha stewart clone that wears nothing but flannel and is an office manager. I could go on.
I miss my London friends for certain things but not because they got me more as a girl. they got certain things like... my exwife was *the* person to take shopping - she was a butch version of Gok Wan (English fashion consultant). although my freinds here are fashionable, they aren't as uber fashion minded as the ones in London and I miss that.
except I was the only one that didn't watch soccer and I bloody hated world cup years. Plus I miss the use of irony (sarcasm), vular humour and insults. I miss the peacocking.

yes I like having "girls night" cocktails and poker. but "girls night" is anyone female. I sometimes just want a penis free room. We swap stories of the biggest bruise we ever got, how many people with a bent dick did you see, have you ever tried X kind of sex, kerri usually bitches about her job (she's a grip for movies - cis straight girl) till we slip into a coma. JJ talks about their latest baking experiment (tgbutch) and we pretend to be interested.

that's kinda how my life is. I know people have really different lives from me. I'm well aware of that by now lol. But I'm also saying that it's not abnormal for plenty of us to just not see things that way. And I only describe people's gender trait "femme" as I would "blonde" if it was *relevant* to the conversation. But lots of people, I notice here, without relevance say "me and my femme friend went out for coffee ans talked about the movie we saw"

It's that I don't get. why is it relevant? I used descriptors here for point making. Otherwise I wouldn't have botherd. Why would I say "my tgbutch mate JJ talks about baking bread till they bore everyone" just generally? it just seems odd to me when I don't see the relevance. And sticks out like someone saying "big tit barb came over for coffee yesterday, we played monopoly" ???? y'know?

I don't get it. and it's not something I'm personally comfy with. But I get that a lot of you enjoy it. I just don't. that's all.

No worries. Didn't think you were. I was just seeing a clearer vision of what you and Martina were referencing. It does feel awkward when stated like what you said in this post and what I said above.

Common interests versus self-identification are what bonds you to your friends. I get that and I have some friends like that as well. I just feel a little something more....something more like 'home'....with others who I bond with more through identity and that relationship and connection than through common interests. Neither is better or worse than the other.

Then I started talking about ties and got off on a tangent.



*shrug*

[bright_arrow]

I don't know about friends but I have a lot of acquaintances. I think the queer to straight ratio is 50/50, never gave it much thought. Don't really do the girly thing - shopping, music, magazines, bar hopping. My interests I share with a variety of them, gender identity be damned. For what it's worth, I find I converse more with my queer family, particularly the butch and trans folks. The straight folks I talk to most, family aside, are actually some of my best guy friends - one I have known for 13 years since our highschool days. We communicate through FB and texting a lot.

[SleepyButch]

Speaking for myself, it has been easier for me to make friends online throughout the last 15 years or so. Does that make me weird? Maybe, but I don't care.

I have made some really great friends from this site and the Dash site and so on. Some I have met in person and know personally and others I just know by their online names. Being the shy person that I am, the online "life" has made it a lot easier for me to actually connect with other Butches, Femmes and the like. Once you get to know me, I rarely shut up!

As far as how I communicate with friends, I love to talk on the phone. (See the part about rarely shutting up before you want to have a conversation with me.) I think it's important to connect on that level if your friend is far away. I have a few very close friends that I trust with all of my deepest darkest secrets and they are all on the femme side of the spectrum. I just seem to connect better with femmes for some reason. I do not need to talk with them daily but don't mind doing so either.

I don't mind texting either but I think sometimes or maybe a lot of times, texts can be taken the wrong way.

[Medusa]

Originally Posted by Gemme

Does anyone really introduce folks as 'this is my femme friend, Veronica' or 'this is my butch friend, Chris'?

I don't!

When I think of the gender of my closest friends, it is often in context of seeing them as a complete being. i.e. My friend "Jessica" who is Femme, Jewish, Differently-abled, tattooed, a Mother, and an elder.

Because I may not want to base my friendship with them on whatever group they are in, but I definitely want to honor those parts of them if that makes any sense.

I stepped away from this thread for a few days because I got really irritated with my inability to be super duper crystal fucking clear that this thread was not meant as a "Femme friends are the best friends!!!!" or "All Female Friends Are GIRLFRIENDZZZZZ*#*#*#*!!!!" kind of thing. (as if!)

I felt like I was noticing a pattern of sorts. The way groups form. The way friendships are formed between Femmes. The way friendships are formed between Butches.
And I guess I've just been really, really lucky because I have the privilege of saying that the friendships I have formed with some of the Femmes who are in my life over the last 15 years have been by far the closest, most authentic, most loving friendships I have in my life.
And I hate to even use the word "most" here because I'm not interested in a hierarchy where Femme friendships are on top and friendships with straight men are on the bottom. I'm merely saying that for me, in my life, I connect with Femmes in ways that are magical and amazing and in ways that I do not connect with otherly gendered folks. And perhaps that's some of my own gender stuff (and I own it!) where some of the best healing of my life has come in the presence of other (mostly Femme) women.

It's been nice to hear about other folks friendships and ways of being here.

[Corkey]

Iz Human and has human relationships. Some are pleasant, some are not. Most are important, but less so then the relationships I have with animals. The most important one is with my wife, everyone else comes after her.

[blush]

For me, I tend to bond better in small groups. I'm not shy, per say, but I'm reserved. I get overwhelmed in large groups, and it comes off as aloof. I've never had TONS of friends, and I used to feel a lacking because I didn't. But really, I'm just not build that way. I read somewhere that introverts see social situations as draining energy, and extroverts see them as filling energy. I'm definitely an introvert, so even if I'm having a fabulous time, I will wear out.

I love being around my friends because there's a common language and history. Whether they're work friends, childhood friends or bf friends. I get more excited when I see my bf friends because we're all kinda special unicorns and sightings are more rare.

I love to text and call, but in person is best, IMO.

[Just_G]

My closest friendships are with femmes.....the first person I call or text when something happens in my life is PinkieLee! Not my girlfriend (when I am dating), not my drinking buddies; I call my favorite femme. I also call my other favorite femmes from time to time to catch up and let them know they are on my mind; sometimes just to hear their voices and have some gab time.

My femme friends are the cool side of the pillow! You know, when you flip the pillow over and lay on the cool side and it is comfortable and just what you need and you relax and think "ahhhhh". There is something so comforting in knowing I have such wonderful friendships with femmes. I can really talk to a handful of them about pretty much everything.

I have a couple of friendships with butches that I hold so close to my heart, but we never talk. We might text once in a while, but the talking thing is rare. Another one close to me is Durrrrrrrr, and we talk every so often, and I love that we do that!

I have never planned out that I would be closer to femmes than butches or transguys; it just happened. It's not even that we are closer, it's that we communicate more in the grand scheme of things. It's the same way with straight women I hang out with.

Funny story; I went with a friend to a bonfire. When I was introduced to the woman throwing the party, I was pleasantly surprised to meet a femme. We got along great and have even met for dinner once since that night. We text every so often too. I am so excited to have femme energy so close to home...that is very refreshing to me. I didn't think of her in a romantic way from the get go, as I was just thrilled to meet a femme locally. I told her over that dinner that I was grateful for her femme energy and that I looked forward to becoming friends. She laughed and said that nobody had ever thanked her for being femme.