Schooling Generations in American Exceptionalism

[UofMfan]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

My thought is that what is being proposed is pretty much what I was taught in school while in the US. Jingoistic fervor. Other countries have it too.

I have always thought Nationalism is dangerous and arrogant and had hoped that by now we as a nation would be better than this.

The only good side I can see is that kids today have Libraries and the Internet and hopefully will learn to think for themselves like we did.

I agree, but with a new twist. I also went to public schools in the States and was subjected to some of this. But isn't this the same thing we (North Americans) criticized of Communist countries?

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by UofMfan

I agree, but with a new twist. I also went to public schools in the States and was subjected to some of this. But isn't this the same thing we (North Americans) criticized of Communist countries?

Oh I agree, it is very definitely hypocritical!!! But for me, it seems like more of the same.

I only went to High School in the US, back in the 77-81 and the changes they want to make hearken back to 30 years ago, like we leaned nothing from Communism and the World Wars.

I was an odd little kid who kept up with politics from as early as I can remember. I grew up with the US overthrowing governments, lying and doing all sorts of covert things...all the while pointing the finger at everyone else.....this is nothing new to me.

I just hope that like us, kids will question and research and try to find out what the truth really is.

ps. not sure how old you are, we might be the same age and I am just more bitter? I grew up in Argentina and saw the US in full hypocrisy early on.

[Martina]

i think this is the bane of American Culture, and i hate the Texas board with my whole heart. However, i can't comment on it now. Deadlines. Great post. i will get back.

[UofMfan]

Originally Posted by Martina

i think this is the bane of American Culture, and i hate the Texas board with my whole heart. However, i can't comment on it now. Deadlines. Great post. i will get back.

I look forward to your comments.

[UofMfan]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Oh I agree, it is very definitely hypocritical!!! But for me, it seems like more of the same.

I only went to High School in the US, back in the 77-81 and the changes they want to make hearken back to 30 years ago, like we leaned nothing from Communism and the World Wars.

I was an odd little kid who kept up with politics from as early as I can remember. I grew up with the US overthrowing governments, lying and doing all sorts of covert things...all the while pointing the finger at everyone else.....this is nothing new to me.

I just hope that like us, kids will question and research and try to find out what the truth really is.

ps. not sure how old you are, we might be the same age and I am just more bitter? I grew up in Argentina and saw the US in full hypocrisy early on.

We might be very close in age. I went to school in the US from 75 to 81 then on to college and beyond.

I also always questioned. The whole central American mess is still very fresh in my mind.

Interestingly enough, it is not until now, that I have been back in my country, that I have seen the hypocrisy with clearer and different eyes.

What worries me abut this time around is that Texas is not only pushing exceptionalism, they are re-writing history to fit their agenda.

I like you, hope that those kids question this, but judging from what I came across in the US school system, I am afraid most will just follow, like sheep to the slaughterhouse.

[Hack]

I am, by no means, worldly. I grew up in a small American town with small town values of being polite, helping out those in need and God, apple pie and all that.

However, I've spent a little time in Western Europe. I felt humbled to be there, most of the time, because they obviously do some things better than we do (gay rights, health care, environment, public transit, sustainability, urban planning to an extent). And what interested me is the perceptions that some people I encountered had about me as an American. The most common misconception was that I must be wealthy if I was traveling in Europe. Truth is, I have what I consider a solid middle class lifestyle. I was fortunate to have someone to stay with while there, thus avoiding lodging costs. Yet, because I dressed well, spent money, and purchased meals out a lot, I was viewed as wealthy. I had to ask, "By whose standard?" It was interesting the responses I received.

Western Europeans are not all that enamored of the States and Americans. They think we are self-centered, arrogant and loud. They think we eat too much, work too much and don't play well with others. Many people I interacted with there had not been to the States, and it scared me they were basing their perceptions on American TV programs (everything from soaps to "Married With Children") or American films. Most of the Europeans I met considered themselves better traveled (I'd argue it's easier to do there than in America), more cultured and more civilized. I would agree that perhaps our view of the world rarely ventures out beyond our borders. I would agree that as a middle class American, it seems I am conditioned to spend money -- afterall, it is people like me who make the world economy go around. However, I took great exception to being lumped in with every other American. I would say Americans are such a diverse people and our differences don't cause as much consternation as some of the things going on politically in Western Europe with the "native Europeans" and the recent Muslim immigrants.

All that said, I think for any culture to teach exceptionalism certainly smacks of elitism. I felt no better than any European I encountered. I think it's wrong for us to think so...even if our supermarkets dwarf their grocery markets; and we have 12 varieties of Oreos to choose from when they only have the regular kind; and we pick up our dog poop and they do not.

Jake

[Apocalipstic]

Originally Posted by Hack

I am, by no means, worldly. I grew up in a small American town with small town values of being polite, helping out those in need and God, apple pie and all that.

However, I've spent a little time in Western Europe. I felt humbled to be there, most of the time, because they obviously do some things better than we do (gay rights, health care, environment, public transit, sustainability, urban planning to an extent). And what interested me is the perceptions that some people I encountered had about me as an American. The most common misconception was that I must be wealthy if I was traveling in Europe. Truth is, I have what I consider a solid middle class lifestyle. I was fortunate to have someone to stay with while there, thus avoiding lodging costs. Yet, because I dressed well, spent money, and purchased meals out a lot, I was viewed as wealthy. I had to ask, "By whose standard?" It was interesting the responses I received.

Western Europeans are not all that enamored of the States and Americans. They think we are self-centered, arrogant and loud. They think we eat too much, work too much and don't play well with others. Many people I interacted with there had not been to the States, and it scared me they were basing their perceptions on American TV programs (everything from soaps to "Married With Children") or American films. Most of the Europeans I met considered themselves better traveled (I'd argue it's easier to do there than in America), more cultured and more civilized. I would agree that perhaps our view of the world rarely ventures out beyond our borders. I would agree that as a middle class American, it seems I am conditioned to spend money -- afterall, it is people like me who make the world economy go around. However, I took great exception to being lumped in with every other American. I would say Americans are such a diverse people and our differences don't cause as much consternation as some of the things going on politically in Western Europe with the "native Europeans" and the recent Muslim immigrants.

All that said, I think for any culture to teach exceptionalism certainly smacks of elitism. I felt no better than any European I encountered. I think it's wrong for us to think so...even if our supermarkets dwarf their grocery markets; and we have 12 varieties of Oreos to choose from when they only have the regular kind; and we pick up our dog poop and they do not.

Jake

They do pick up dog poop in London! and yes, it is easy to visit a ton of other countries when they are 2 hours away.

I agree with the rest except one point! They do think we are arrogant and we are. We are taught that we are better than everyone else, but so are the Japanese, the Chinese, the Argentines and a lot of other countries.

I think it is dangerous that we are so arrogant that we assume that the rest of the world finds us superior. They don't. I always end up apologizing a lot or pretending not to be from the US when I travel.

The point I do not agree with is the one where we handle our diversity better. I don't see it. Not with the militias building up, the views on recent immigrants, the mess New Orleans still is in and the blatant racism. Yes, those things go on in Europe too, but I don't see us being better at it. (I could however, be watching too much news and reading too much Mother Jones )

[Hack]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

They do pick up dog poop in London! and yes, it is easy to visit a ton of other countries when they are 2 hours away.

I agree with the rest except one point! They do think we are arrogant and we are. We are taught that we are better than everyone else, but so are the Japanese, the Chinese, the Argentines and a lot of other countries.

I think it is dangerous that we are so arrogant that we assume that the rest of the world finds us superior. They don't. I always end up apologizing a lot or pretending not to be from the US when I travel.

The point I do not agree with is the one where we handle our diversity better. I don't see it. Not with the militias building up, the views on recent immigrants, the mess New Orleans still is in and the blatant racism. Yes, those things go on in Europe too, but I don't see us being better at it. (I could however, be watching too much news and reading too much Mother Jones )

Oh, I am not being Pollyanna about our racism issues. I see it in many forms -- African-Americans, Native Americans, Middle Eastern immigrants, etc. I am fascinated by the political problems in Western Europe, Holland in particular, stemming from their growing intolerance for Muslim immigrants. The most popular politician in Holland right now is a guy named Geert Wilders. He supports things such as, making head scarves and burkas illegal. He supports keeping all Muslims in certain parts of the cities. He is wildly popular with the native Dutch, who are tired, frankly, of paying for the social services for these immigrants. When I was there last May, some crazy guy ran his car through a barricade toward a float type thing carrying the Dutch royal family in a Queen's Day parade. The news media initially reported that the driver was Muslim and that it must be a terrorist attack. The next wave of news reports corrected the situation, saying he was a Dutch man who was known to have mental health issues.

When I would discuss this Geert Wilders guy with my girlfriend, who kind of supported some of his stances, I would say, "But don't you think he sort of sounds like Hitler?" He is zeroing in on just one segment of the population and making them the root of every problem because they are so different religiously, politically, etc. I read a lot about Western European politics, and many countries are having these same issues over there regarding the crush of Muslim immigrants. In Holland in particular, a country that prides itself so much on being a tolerant society, this is really tearing at one of their long-standing values. Fascinating to a political communications "expert" like me.

Jake

[UofMfan]

Originally Posted by Hack

I am, by no means, worldly. I grew up in a small American town with small town values of being polite, helping out those in need and God, apple pie and all that.

However, I've spent a little time in Western Europe. I felt humbled to be there, most of the time, because they obviously do some things better than we do (gay rights, health care, environment, public transit, sustainability, urban planning to an extent). And what interested me is the perceptions that some people I encountered had about me as an American. The most common misconception was that I must be wealthy if I was traveling in Europe. Truth is, I have what I consider a solid middle class lifestyle. I was fortunate to have someone to stay with while there, thus avoiding lodging costs. Yet, because I dressed well, spent money, and purchased meals out a lot, I was viewed as wealthy. I had to ask, "By whose standard?" It was interesting the responses I received.

Western Europeans are not all that enamored of the States and Americans. They think we are self-centered, arrogant and loud. They think we eat too much, work too much and don't play well with others. Many people I interacted with there had not been to the States, and it scared me they were basing their perceptions on American TV programs (everything from soaps to "Married With Children") or American films. Most of the Europeans I met considered themselves better traveled (I'd argue it's easier to do there than in America), more cultured and more civilized. I would agree that perhaps our view of the world rarely ventures out beyond our borders. I would agree that as a middle class American, it seems I am conditioned to spend money -- afterall, it is people like me who make the world economy go around. However, I took great exception to being lumped in with every other American. I would say Americans are such a diverse people and our differences don't cause as much consternation as some of the things going on politically in Western Europe with the "native Europeans" and the recent Muslim immigrants.

All that said, I think for any culture to teach exceptionalism certainly smacks of elitism. I felt no better than any European I encountered. I think it's wrong for us to think so...even if our supermarkets dwarf their grocery markets; and we have 12 varieties of Oreos to choose from when they only have the regular kind; and we pick up our dog poop and they do not.

Jake

I get that you don't want to be lumped in with every other American, I am guilty of that sometimes even though I hate it to be done to me.

I find that most US citizens that have traveled abroad (and I don't mean Cancun) have a better sense of how they are viewed by the rest of the world.

Having said that, most of what I have encountered, regarding how people from other countries view those form the US, has come not from TV or films, but from what the US has done with its image abroad.

Even in your post, and I say this for the sake of discussion, you mention this: "afterall, it is people like me who make the world economy go around." That in itself is a perfect example of how many US citizens feel. This is not true, the world economy is fueled by so many other countries, not just one country or one class. Perhaps back during the industrial revolution this was true, but it isn't the case anymore.

By the way, we pick up our dog poop here too, but we are greatly lacking in the cookie variety.

Thanks for your post.

[Hack]

Originally Posted by UofMfan

I get that you don't want to be lumped in with every other American, I am guilty of that sometimes even though I hate it to be done to me.

I find that most US citizens that have traveled abroad (and I don't mean Cancun) have a better sense of how they are viewed by the rest of the world.

Having said that, most of what I have encountered, regarding how people from other countries view those form the US, has come not from TV or films, but from what the US has done with its image abroad.

Even in your post, and I say this for the sake of discussion, you mention this: "afterall, it is people like me who make the world economy go around." That in itself is a perfect example of how many US citizens feel. This is not true, the world economy is fueled by so many other countries, not just one country or one class. Perhaps back during the industrial revolution this was true, but it isn't the case anymore.

By the way, we pick up our dog poop here too, but we are greatly lacking in the cookie variety.

Thanks for your post.

OK, let me clear up the dog poop reference...in the Netherlands, they DO NOT pick up their dog poop. In fact, my girlfriend there thought it very odd that I would want to pick up after her dog when I was out walking it. And the first time I took her dog out, I discovered NO ONE picks up after their dog there. lol

I think that the last administration (I refuse to call him President Bush because he didn't win fair and square) did a huge amount of damage to our image abroad. Some of the most positive interactions I had with Europeans were about Obama. I had one of the poster-ized Obama tshirts that I wore out a few times while there, and got a lot of nice comments or smiles or friendly looks.

I happened to be in the Netherlands during their Liberation Day observance (as in World War II) last year, and I was always very moved at the mention of all the Allies -- US, Canada, British, etc. -- during the ceremonies and tributes. In fact, while wandering around a small village in Belgium, we went in to a church yard that was surrounded by cemetary. It was amazing to me that the WW II era graves of Canadian and RAF pilots who were shot down during the war were the best tended graves in the place. My girlfriend told me that it is a point of pride for the church, and in fact, the entire community, that they honor the soldiers who fought to liberate Holland and Belgium.

Yet, I get your reference that the US seems to have this need to be the world's policeman, or bully at times. I think there are times when we need to go flash the hardware and show some muscle just to keep the peace, so to speak. But I think when we get mired in situations we shouldn't be in because we are no more than a schoolyard bully, yes, that does hurt us abroad.

And my statement about making the world economy go around wasn't just about me. It was about Americans in general feeling that way. I don't think you can argue that Americans are not the most consumptive people on the planet. That is how we are viewed -- at least that is what my, albeit small, sampling of Europeans told me.

Jake

[UofMfan]

Originally Posted by Hack

OK, let me clear up the dog poop reference...in the Netherlands, they DO NOT pick up their dog poop. In fact, my girlfriend there thought it very odd that I would want to pick up after her dog when I was out walking it. And the first time I took her dog out, I discovered NO ONE picks up after their dog there. lol

I think that the last administration (I refuse to call him President Bush because he didn't win fair and square) did a huge amount of damage to our image abroad. Some of the most positive interactions I had with Europeans were about Obama. I had one of the poster-ized Obama tshirts that I wore out a few times while there, and got a lot of nice comments or smiles or friendly looks.

I happened to be in the Netherlands during their Liberation Day observance (as in World War II) last year, and I was always very moved at the mention of all the Allies -- US, Canada, British, etc. -- during the ceremonies and tributes. In fact, while wandering around a small village in Belgium, we went in to a church yard that was surrounded by cemetary. It was amazing to me that the WW II era graves of Canadian and RAF pilots who were shot down during the war were the best tended graves in the place. My girlfriend told me that it is a point of pride for the church, and in fact, the entire community, that they honor the soldiers who fought to liberate Holland and Belgium.

Yet, I get your reference that the US seems to have this need to be the world's policeman, or bully at times. I think there are times when we need to go flash the hardware and show some muscle just to keep the peace, so to speak. But I think when we get mired in situations we shouldn't be in because we are no more than a schoolyard bully, yes, that does hurt us abroad.

And my statement about making the world economy go around wasn't just about me. It was about Americans in general feeling that way. I don't think you can argue that Americans are not the most consumptive people on the planet. That is how we are viewed -- at least that is what my, albeit small, sampling of Europeans told me.

Jake

Yes, Mr. Bush (I also refuse to call him that which he stole) did a lot of damage to the image of US citizens abroad. But we need not go very far back to see that he hasn't been the only one. The US has used its military power to intimidate and set their own agenda on many a country. And if we go back as far as the Iran/Contra affair era, we can see how sometimes it has bitten it back. I am a avid reader of Noam Chomsky because he clearly illustrates this side of the "Empire".

Now don't get me wrong, my heart is split between the US and my country, so I harbor no hard feelings or am coming from a position of resentment. What I have done is taken a step back and look at US foreign policy and see it for what it has been.

Going back to the original article, I think this is where it comes from, from this exceptionalism that is taught early and often.

I am touched by your story about the observance of Liberation day, I think it exemplifies the best the US has to offer. Thank you for sharing that.

As for the dog poop, I think that is gross and must be a cultural thing in the Netherlands.

Us citizens are some of the most consumptive people in the planet, yes, but if we go by the numbers, China has taken the lead both in production and consumption.

I am not a believer that this is a good thing, but then again, I am against any sort of savage capitalism.

I think to me what sticks out about the article and is relevant to what we are taking about here is this:

"Still, what is the meaning of learning and the purpose of education? Do schools exist to develop critical thinkers and productive and active global citizens, or do they exist for the purpose of preprogramming unquestioning civilians and obedient and passive consumers, including packaged wars? Historian Howard Zinn believed knowing history was less about understanding the past than changing the future. In regards to the forced Indian removal policies and genocides, the Sand Creek and Wounded Knee massacres, the Luzons, the Dresdens, the Hiroshimas, the No Gun Ris, the My Lais, the IR655's, the Maryknoll nuns' and Jesuit priests' murders, the Guatemalan mass graves, the Sinuas, the Basras, the Abu Graibs, the Bagrams, the Hadithas, the Al-Mahmudiyahs, the Fallujahs and the Gardezs - can the United States afford to school more generations in American exceptionalism?"

Again, thanks for engaging in this conversation, your opinion illustrates a side that needs to be looked at.

[Apocalipstic]

Loving this thread!

I sometimes wonder if WWII was our last shining moment as a Nation. Jake, your trip sounds amazing! How wonderful to get to see the good side of what the US has done.

UofM, yes, I think teaching exceptional ism, or Nationalism leads to problems. Even on a small scale, thinking one is better than other people is disastrous.

I agree 100% about W. *rant*

When we go back and look at Manifest Destiny, where we are today is no surprise. Though I keep wishing we would somehow be better than that.

I wonder if it is in our nature as humans to be Nationalistic?

[PearlsNLace]

How is this different than nationalism, or ethnocentrism? Is it just a term that is to be more precise? A new spin?

[UofMfan]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Loving this thread!

I sometimes wonder if WWII was our last shining moment as a Nation. Jake, your trip sounds amazing! How wonderful to get to see the good side of what the US has done.

UofM, yes, I think teaching exceptional ism, or Nationalism leads to problems. Even on a small scale, thinking one is better than other people is disastrous.

I agree 100% about W. *rant*

When we go back and look at Manifest Destiny, where we are today is no surprise. Though I keep wishing we would somehow be better than that.

I wonder if it is in our nature as humans to be Nationalistic?

Thank you Apocalipstic, I believe that WWII was probably the Us's last shining moment, sadly.

As to if it is our nature to be Nationalistic? I think you may be on to something. From the very get go we are taught to stay with our "group, "circle", "Posse", "family", and so on., so it is no wonder this is how we turn out.

What makes what the State of Texas is trying to do dangerous, in my view, is to teach children, most of whom have very little parental intervention, that they are better, superior, than other children in the world simply because they are US citizens.

How is this conducive to world peace and better understanding and relations with your neighbors? Aren't we all in the same group, as human beings?

[Hack]

Originally Posted by apocalipstic

Loving this thread!

I sometimes wonder if WWII was our last shining moment as a Nation. Jake, your trip sounds amazing! How wonderful to get to see the good side of what the US has done.

It was. Thank you.

*wistful little grin*