For Classic Movie Fans

[Julien]

Originally Posted by Jet

uh...yer not gettin off that easy .....we know you teach film...git yer butt back in here and learn us some new tricks on old films....

hey Jet,
I hear ya. So you want to talk film do you? Here is a list of what I've taught:
1. The Women Who Know Too Much: Women and Violence in the Films by Alfred Hitchcock
2. Gender Passing in Narrative Film
3. Women and Madness in Narrative Film
4. What do Invasion of the Body Snatchers, On the Waterfront Elia Kazan and Communism Have in Common? A Look at the House of Un-American Activities Committee and the Hollywood Blacklist
5. Cinema and the Law: Trial Films
6. The Bad and the Beautiful: Women in Film Noir
7. The Lesbian Character in Film
8. Deviant Desires: Femme Fatales, Crones, Lesbians and Female Friendship
9. Intro to Film Studies

I use feminist film theory, queer theory, mainstream film theory in my writing. I also have an interest in the graphic novel.

How's that to start?

[Jet]

Excellent post and very interesting. I have comments and probably questions on some things right off the bat. I have to finsih working out and then I'm going to spend time in here later. it's 9:30 EDT.

And that Elia Kazan thing is huge and there's a "catharsis" (I don't think that's the right word) around all that....kind of like Arthur Miller's Crucible had a thing going on too. Kazan snitched, if I remember right, and Miller condemned the House with the Crucible, but we'll talk later.

Excellent stuff...welcome back to the thread. I would be more interested in 1, 3, 4, 5 and 6. (I dont ID as a lesbian, I'm male-transgendered) so i don't have quite knowledge or level of interest on those aspects of film as much as I do on these other topics.

catch ya later

Originally Posted by Graphiteta2s

hey Jet,
I hear ya. So you want to talk film do you? Here is a list of what I've taught:
1. The Women Who Know Too Much: Women and Violence in the Films by Alfred Hitchcock
2. Gender Passing in Narrative Film
3. Women and Madness in Narrative Film
4. What do Invasion of the Body Snatchers, On the Waterfront Elia Kazan and Communism Have in Common? A Look at the House of Un-American Activities Committee and the Hollywood Blacklist
5. Cinema and the Law: Trial Films
6. The Bad and the Beautiful: Women in Film Noir
7. The Lesbian Character in Film
8. Deviant Desires: Femme Fatales, Crones, Lesbians and Female Friendship
9. Intro to Film Studies

I use feminist film theory, queer theory, mainstream film theory in my writing. I also have an interest in the graphic novel.

How's that to start?

[Julien]

Originally Posted by Jet

Excellent post and very interesting. I have comments and probably questions on some things right off the bat. I have to finsih working out and then I'm going to spend time in here later. it's 9:30 EDT.

And that Elia Kazan thing is huge and there's a "catharsis" (I don't think that's the right word) around all that....kind of like Arthur Miller's Crucible had a thing going on too. Kazan snitched, if I remember right, and Miller condemned the House with the Crucible, but we'll talk later.

Excellent stuff...welcome back to the thread. I would be more interested in 1, 3, 4, 5 and 6. (I dont ID as a lesbian, I'm male-transgendered) so i don't have quite knowledge or level of interest on those aspects of film as much as I do on these other topics.

catch ya later

You're right about the Kazan and Miller connection. I actually use the Crucible in that class. I also use the HUAC hearings transcripts, which I haven't looked at in a while. So it's been a couple of years ago that I taught that particular course. The last one I taught was Hitchcock. I am a huge fan of his work. I understand that you might not be interested in all the topics and that's fine. I also identify as trans FTM. Talk to you later.

[Jet]

Originally Posted by Graphiteta2s

hey Jet,
I hear ya. So you want to talk film do you? Here is a list of what I've taught:
1. The Women Who Know Too Much: Women and Violence in the Films by Alfred Hitchcock

I'm not aware of your vantage point or your theories, so I'm just going to comment from a fan's perspective, not having studied film formally, but observed through the years. I wanted to be an actor and a screenwriter when I was younger and so I've had a love affair with the movies ever since I was a kid. Isn't that how it usually starts? I know it did for Scorsese among others. Just commenting off the cuff here...I think Hitch was kind of half and half on movies involving women being victimized. And just taking a quick look at victims vs. heroines it looks kind of even to me, even tilting more toward women being heroines or shining through in some way.

His victims:

The Birds-she's totalled
Dial M for Murder - she gets justice but was violated nonetheless
Rear Window- both catagories because a woman is murdered
Psycho-she's totalled
Strangers On a Train (Robert Walker was such a maniac-and he totalled a woman)
Notorious- She barely made it through
North by Northwest - Eva Marie Saint is an intended victim
Vertigo- she's totalled
Frenzy- She's totalled
The Paradine Case-love this movie and she's her own enemy

Women who shine through as heroines
or whose characters were not objects of violence:

Rebecca (my favorite) she comes through okay
Shadow of a Doubt (love this movie)
Marnie- who overcame
The Man Who Knew Too Much-
Rear Window (Grace Kelly being really strong and gutsy)
Spellbound- Ingrid Bergman is the heroine
Lifeboat- damn tough women in there/Tallulah and the gang
Suspicion-I'm going to put it here just because he really wasn't after her,
she only thought so.
Saboteur-great movie and Priscilla Lane's character doesn't choke
Mr. and Mrs. Smith-no victims
To Catch a Thief - no victim in the central characters
Foreign Correspondent-
Torn Curtain-spy stuff
Topaz
The Trouble With Harry
The Wrong Man-talk about a victim---a male victim here.

I'm not commenting on:
Jamaica Inn
Stage Fright
Rope-this is about guys
Under Capricorn
39 Steps-I can't remember of Madeleine Carroll gets in trouble or not
I Confess
Family Plot

just because I haven't seen them in sooooo long.

I love Hitch and his movies, except for the British silents, because i never saw them. But I never considered "women and violence" in the same sentence regarding his films. To me, his movies were more about suspense and mystery as a whole and throughout the movement of the stories. I don't separate women and violence out because there were plenty of male characters who were victims in his movies as well such as The Wrong Man... Just my .02

One thing's for sure.....he loved blonds...

See ya at the movies....

[Julien]

hey Jet,
I did use a couple of silent films in my class. They were Blackmail and The Lodger. You probably know the background of the films even if you've never seen them. The Lodger is based on Jack the Ripper, a killer who only kills blonds Blackmail is about a woman who is raped and kills her attacker, but is blackmailed by another person.

I can tell you're a great fan of Hitchcock. One thing I'd like to add is that the violence towards women doesn't necessarily mean death or focused on the lead actress. It can be the overall feel of how he treats women in his films. As you rightly pointed out, for example, The Birds is filled with violence against women, with Annie Hayworth being killed and Melanie Daniels being tortured by the birds themselves. In Rear Window, Grace Kelley's character is abused by the killer when he roughs her up. She is also emotionally abused by James Stewart's character.

While it is true that possibly not all the lead actress are physically abused, they may be abused in other ways. Trauma can take on many forms. I will also agree that the trauma/abuse may not occur in every single Hitchcock film, but it is evident enough throughout a majority of his films to be considered a topic for study or discussion.

You must also consider how the film is shot and how he objectifies his female characters. The camera can cut as deep as a knife. These are just thoughts off the top of my head.

G

[cinderella]

I haven't seen the 1927 or 1932 versions of 'The Lodger' (which reminds me of 'Night Must Fall' w/Robert Montgomery & Rosalind Russel), but I did see the 1944 remake with Laird Creger as Mr. Slade (suspected by his landlady of being Jack the Ripper). Good cast with Merle Oberon playing Kitty Langley, the actress, and current love/hate interest of The Lodger. Sir Cedric Hardwicke & Sara Allgood play Robert & Ellen Bonting, Kitty's uncle and aunt. Good movie.

Originally Posted by Graphiteta2s

[FONT="Comic Sans MS"][COLOR="DarkRed"]hey Jet,
I did use a couple of silent films in my class. They were Blackmail and The Lodger. You probably know the background of the films even if you've never seen them. The Lodger is based on Jack the Ripper, a killer who only kills blonds Blackmail is about a woman who is raped and kills her attacker, but is blackmailed by another person.

[Jet]

Originally Posted by Graphiteta2s

hey Jet,
I did use a couple of silent films in my class. They were Blackmail and The Lodger. You probably know the background of the films even if you've never seen them. The Lodger is based on Jack the Ripper, a killer who only kills blonds Blackmail is about a woman who is raped and kills her attacker, but is blackmailed by another person.

I can tell you're a great fan of Hitchcock. One thing I'd like to add is that the violence towards women doesn't necessarily mean death or focused on the lead actress. It can be the overall feel of how he treats women in his films. As you rightly pointed out, for example, The Birds is filled with violence against women, with Annie Hayworth being killed and Melanie Daniels being tortured by the birds themselves. In Rear Window, Grace Kelley's character is abused by the killer when he roughs her up. She is also emotionally abused by James Stewart's character.

While it is true that possibly not all the lead actress are physically abused, they may be abused in other ways. Trauma can take on many forms. I will also agree that the trauma/abuse may not occur in every single Hitchcock film, but it is evident enough throughout a majority of his films to be considered a topic for study or discussion.

You must also consider how the film is shot and how he objectifies his female characters. The camera can cut as deep as a knife. These are just thoughts off the top of my head.

G

You're right, I know other women were victims in his movies, and If women are meant to be objectified than they are because of the story. But I still don't see it as a separate facet, but suspense overall. Again, there's also males who are objectified, I think. And as far camera work, I thought it was really eventful most of the time, not just surrounding the scenes with women being murdered or victimized. I think it's interesting to note, for instance, the gun scene in Spellbound when Leo Carrol (Ithink its Leo Carrol, it's been awhile since I've seen it) points the gun at Ingrid Bergman, there's no rack focus as we look down the barrel, both the gun and Bergman are in focus, there was trick to it, but I forget how he did it. And putting a light in the glass of milk to make it look more menacing in Suspicion. The falling effects in Vertigo and so many other things. I think that's why call him the master of suspense, all of what he did was suspense, including no music score or very litte the Birds and then using Bernard Herrman's eerie music in other films, And I have to say I Iove the music in Marnie and I added it to my collection. It's beautiful.

[Julien]

Originally Posted by Jet

You're right, I know other women were victims in his movies, and If women are meant to be objectified than they are because of the story. But I still don't see it as a separate facet, but suspense overall. Again, there's also males who are objectified, I think. And as far camera work, I thought it was really eventful most of the time, not just surrounding the scenes with women being murdered or victimized. I think it's interesting to note, for instance, the gun scene in Spellbound when Leo Carrol (Ithink its Leo Carrol, it's been awhile since I've seen it) points the gun at Ingrid Bergman, there's no rack focus as we look down the barrel, both the gun and Bergman are in focus, there was trick to it, but I forget how he did it. And putting a light in the glass of milk to make it look more menacing in Suspicion. The falling effects in Vertigo and so many other things. I think that's why call him the master of suspense, all of what he did was suspense, including no music score or very litte the Birds and then using Bernard Herrman's eerie music in other films, And I have to say I Iove the music in Marnie and I added it to my collection. It's beautiful.

I completely agree with you about the music by Herrman. I love it. I have a CD with the works by Hermann. I didn't realize how much of Psycho is the music. Not just the shower scene either. The way it swells and builds to a climax is great.(I do realize it sounds orgasmic, it is suppose to). The music in Marnie is one of my favorites too.

Hitchcock is the Master of Suspense. What I observe through my analysis about the women in the films in no way undercuts Hitchcock's work as an auteur. The suspense builds in much of the same way as Hermann's music builds. Or it is like a roller coaster that takes us on a grand ride.

Talking about camera shots, what about Notorious and Ingrid Bergman's pov through hazy vision? It illustrates her hangover state. She can't see clearly and neither can we. Of course it also shows that she can't see Devlin clearly she doesn't know what his agenda is in regards to her. A foreshadowing of this is when he is "introduced" to us, but all we can see is his back in black or in the shadows.

[Julien]

TCM showed The Adventures of Robin Hood yesterday. I love the pairing of Errol Flynn and Olivia deHavilland. I didn't realized how vivid the color was in this film. It was great fun to watch again after a long time. How many of films have you seen with this duo? Captain Blood was their first film together.

[cinderella]

Monty, I have seen several films with this duo, however I can't think of the titles off-hand.

I believe the color is so vibrant because this is one of the many films TCM has been instrumental in having restored. TCM must be commended for being involved in this process, and being such a catalyst in bringing these films to the conscieneness of the general public. It is our country's history and must be preserved for future generations. I wish there was some way I could get directly involved in this endeavor other then just by monetay contributions.

[cinderella]

As usual, my cinema comrade, your post is insightful, informative, and interesting The 3 'I's...

I'm a blond, do you suppose he'd have a thing for me? Maybe not so much - he was chubby, but I'm sure he didn't like 'chubs', lol.

Glad to see the thread's been resusitated - it's been 'sleeping' for quite a while.

Hey, Monty, how are you? Glad you're back!

Originally Posted by Jet

I'm not aware of your vantage point or your theories, so I'm just going to comment from a fan's perspective, not having studied film formally, but observed through the years. I wanted to be an actor and a screenwriter when I was younger and so I've had a love affair with the movies ever since I was a kid. Isn't that how it usually starts? I know it did for Scorsese among others. Just commenting off the cuff here...I think Hitch was kind of half and half on movies involving women being victimized. And just taking a quick look at victims vs. heroines it looks kind of even to me, even tilting more toward women being heroines or shining through in some way.

His victims:

The Birds-she's totalled
Dial M for Murder - she gets justice but was violated nonetheless
Rear Window- both catagories because a woman is murdered
Psycho-she's totalled
Strangers On a Train (Robert Walker was such a maniac-and he totalled a woman)
Notorious- She barely made it through
North by Northwest - Eva Marie Saint is an intended victim
Vertigo- she's totalled
Frenzy- She's totalled
The Paradine Case-love this movie and she's her own enemy

Women who shine through as heroines
or whose characters were not objects of violence:

Rebecca (my favorite) she comes through okay
Shadow of a Doubt (love this movie)
Marnie- who overcame
The Man Who Knew Too Much-
Rear Window (Grace Kelly being really strong and gutsy)
Spellbound- Ingrid Bergman is the heroine
Lifeboat- damn tough women in there/Tallulah and the gang
Suspicion-I'm going to put it here just because he really wasn't after her,
she only thought so.
Saboteur-great movie and Priscilla Lane's character doesn't choke
Mr. and Mrs. Smith-no victims
To Catch a Thief - no victim in the central characters
Foreign Correspondent-
Torn Curtain-spy stuff
Topaz
The Trouble With Harry
The Wrong Man-talk about a victim---a male victim here.

I'm not commenting on:
Jamaica Inn
Stage Fright
Rope-this is about guys
Under Capricorn
39 Steps-I can't remember of Madeleine Carroll gets in trouble or not
I Confess
Family Plot

just because I haven't seen them in sooooo long.

I love Hitch and his movies, except for the British silents, because i never saw them. But I never considered "women and violence" in the same sentence regarding his films. To me, his movies were more about suspense and mystery as a whole and throughout the movement of the stories. I don't separate women and violence out because there were plenty of male characters who were victims in his movies as well such as The Wrong Man... Just my .02

One thing's for sure.....he loved blonds...

See ya at the movies....

[Julien]

Originally Posted by cinderella

As usual, my cinema comrade, your post is insightful, informative, and interesting The 3 'I's...

I'm a blond, do you suppose he'd have a thing for me? Maybe not so much - he was chubby, but I'm sure he didn't like 'chubs', lol.

Glad to see the thread's been resusitated - it's been 'sleeping' for quite a while.

Hey, Monty, how are you? Glad you're back!

hey Cinderella,
good to be back. I'm doing just fine thank you. I hope you are well.
Monty