Lesbian Couple "Looks into Transgender" as a Loophole to Get Married

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by dykeumentary

Just a friendly reminder, because I know that we all want to be good people here-

Please lets not use expressions like "having a screw loose" or "ordering a psych consult" when we mean to say that we don't agree/understand someone's decision.
The mental health industrial complex has been used as a weapon against GLBT and gender-noncomforming people for years. The stigma of "being crazy" also keeps people who need mental health care from getting it.

Thanks! Now back to lively debate!

Originally Posted by dykeumentary

I'm speaking as a person who had an involuntary inpatient hospitalization to treat what the doctors saw as gender issues, I'm speaking as a niece of a man who was forced to undergo shock therapy treatments to "cure" his homosexuality, I'm speaking as a friend of a 25 year-old lesbian who killed herself when she need needed help, but was too embarassed to get it.

Maybe I should have just saiid "holy shit- that's offensive!" but I tried to be nice.
Is the better response to flag a post? I don't know.

.

Originally Posted by aishah

(also thanks dykeumentary for putting words to the ableism of casual comments about people's mental health states. it upset me too.)

I apologize if my words genuinely offended anyone.

However.....

I say this as someone who's mother suffered from paranoid schizophrenia for decades and did things like drag me out of grade school to hitchhike halfway across the country to go meet the president, which put us both in traumatic and dangerous situations and I wound up being held back due to the amount of time I was kept out of school. I've personally dealt with seasonal depression as well.

I think it's safe to say that most people have been touched by mental health issues in one form or another and some of us, like Anya and Dapper, actually work in the profession.

That said, this offended me.

Just a friendly reminder, because I know that we all want to be good people here-

You have no idea what I want and to insinuate that I'm a bad person because I said 'has a screw loose' feels like a shaming attempt.

Sorry.

I have no shame.

Fail.

I stand by my previous post. I certainly admit I could have used different verbiage, though.

[aishah]

forgive me if i misunderstood what anyone meant by those comments. i certainly don't think anyone is a bad person and i don't want to shame anyone into talking a certain way. just was expressing my own gratitude at the questioning of this very common reaction to attribute things we don't like/agree with to mental illness. i personally find this language to be ableist and upsetting. there are other ways of expressing disbelief, frustration, shock, lack of ability to comprehend why someone would do this, etc. than to attribute it to mental illness. it does a disservice to people with actual mental health issues and it does a disservice to the people you're talking about when we frankly don't know whether or not they have mental health issues.

edited/tl;dr -- people see things they think are bad or wrong. when people label those things as "crazy," it bothers me similarly to how it bothers me when people label bad or wrong or ridiculous or stupid or whatever things as "gay" or anything else. because i'm crazy and i resent the association of mental health with bad/wrong/ridiculous, as it perpetuates stigma. it also just doesn't make sense to me, as in it doesn't seem to be a relevant descriptor of the situation.

[dykeumentary]

Originally Posted by Gemme

You have no idea what I want and to insinuate that I'm a bad person because I said 'has a screw loose' feels like a shaming attempt.

Sorry.

I have no shame.

Fail.

GEMME by quoting what I wrote so completely, your post feels like you are being negative to me specifically. I wasn't being specifically negative to you.

I posted what I did because I know that many people read what's here. I posted what I did because it was an opportunity to talk about how people who don't even intend to be hurtful get pulled into mental health oppression.

It was relevant to this thread not only because we have a responsibility to other BFP posters to interrupt hurtful language, but also because Oprah probably didn't mean to be hurtful to anybody, yet (as you pointed out) many trans people are/were/could be harmed by this segment on her show. This is a thread about how out actions impact others.

So since you posted to me personally, here is my personal response back to you:

You wrote about your experience with your mom and I feel genuine compassion for you, that must have been so difficult.
Sadly though, our experiences of being hurt by someone with mental health issues does not give you or anyone permission to say things like "there's a screw loose" -- that's a bad way to say you don't agree. If you are talking about somieone's mental condition, and if you ARE a psychiatrist, you wouldn't have permission to talk about their condition here anyway.
An experience of being hurt by someone with a broken leg doesn't give you permission to say "that's so lame." An experience of being hurt by someone with cognitive delays doesn't give you permission to say "that's so retarded." An experience of being treated badly by a poor person doesn't give you permission to say "That's ghetto" The list goes on.

It's clear from your total number of posts that you care about this site. I don't know you, nor do I find sport in shaming anyone.
You and I both feel the responsibility to talk about everyday oppression, and our part in interrupting it -That's why we both post in threads like this.

[imperfect_cupcake]

Wait. There was a shit storm over an ftm giving birth? Seriously? > so bloody what! Not every ftm is a hetero median representative of what male and man is. Most.of the ftms I know transition into their own understanding of their gender and sex. That means many of them like to be fisted, have no issue with penetration in any hole and one of my ftm mates actually went off T to give birth because his wife couldn't. I didn't blink, if his body can do it and he's agreeable, its part of his gender and sex expression. Why does what one person does have to be representative of an entire group if they are in a minority? Isn't that a bit fucked up? Why do we ask people to be spokes people for gender, sex and sexual orientation for everyone? We aren't borg . One femme will never be able to represent everyone with a feminine gender expression. Why do we expect others to do it?

Just ugh.

[Gemme]

CCB, the guy's name is Thomas Beattie. He bore 3 beautiful babies before his final reassignment surgery.

Originally Posted by dykeumentary

GEMME by quoting what I wrote so completely, your post feels like you are being negative to me specifically. I wasn't being specifically negative to you.

There were only TWO people that made comments that fit what you rallied against. Anya and myself, so yeah. It was personal.

I posted what I did because I know that many people read what's here. I posted what I did because it was an opportunity to talk about how people who don't even intend to be hurtful get pulled into mental health oppression.

It was relevant to this thread not only because we have a responsibility to other BFP posters to interrupt hurtful language, but also because Oprah probably didn't mean to be hurtful to anybody, yet (as you pointed out) many trans people are/were/could be harmed by this segment on her show. This is a thread about how out actions impact others.

So since you posted to me personally, here is my personal response back to you:

You wrote about your experience with your mom and I feel genuine compassion for you, that must have been so difficult.
Sadly though, our experiences of being hurt by someone with mental health issues does not give you or anyone permission to say things like "there's a screw loose" -- that's a bad way to say you don't agree. If you are talking about somieone's mental condition, and if you ARE a psychiatrist, you wouldn't have permission to talk about their condition here anyway.

First, free speech allows me the 'permission' to say whatever I'd like. Granted, just because someone can SAY something doesn't mean they SHOULD. Westboro, anyone?

I brought up my personal experience because your post read like 'this has been my experience and so that makes it perfectly fine for me to pass judgment on what you said'. You are not an island unto itself. Like I said, mental health affects all of us and most of us have had experience, either directly or indirectly, so we all have the same right to speak out about it, one way or another.

I wasn't saying "I don't agree". I was saying that, given the information I had at that time, I felt that maybe one or both of them could benefit from some professional help because the line drawn between 'problem' and 'solution' didn't feel logical to me. It felt belittling to those who actually have to struggle and work towards a transition and not just 'opt' to do it. As others have since said, it could very well be the propaganda and the media's approach to it. Or not. It felt like they were saying that Jacki's choice was the easiest to make.

Actually, most people could benefit from professional help in the mental health field. Life is stressful.

So you are a lawyer? It's my understanding that medical professionals can speak publicly and clearly about anything that's a public case. The line is drawn when it's one of their own patients. That's doctor-patient confidentiality and would certainly prohibit a doctor from discussing their personal patient's case and history.

An experience of being hurt by someone with a broken leg doesn't give you permission to say "that's so lame." An experience of being hurt by someone with cognitive delays doesn't give you permission to say "that's so retarded." An experience of being treated badly by a poor person doesn't give you permission to say "That's ghetto" The list goes on.

It's clear from your total number of posts that you care about this site. I don't know you, nor do I find sport in shaming anyone.
You and I both feel the responsibility to talk about everyday oppression, and our part in interrupting it -That's why we both post in threads like this.

Some of the correlations you drew confuse me. For one, one doesn't have to be poor to be ghetto and vise versa. And I just don't get the lame comment. I can't see where 'that's so lame' would be offensive, hurt leg or not. To be clear, I understand what lame means. I just don't see the offense in it.

The number of one's posts means nothing. You have less than 400 but you have strong opinions and are vocal about what you feel strongly for. I don't judge people on how often they do or do not post.

I'm really balking at you speaking for me and others, which you have done multiple times now. You don't know what I feel responsibility for or why I post in threads. At all. It feels very condescending for you to speak as though you do and I would rather it not continue.

I appreciate good debate but I feel our discussion is pulling the train off the rails, so if you'd like to address this with me privately, feel free. I welcome it.