What makes me butch?

[Darth Denkay]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know it seems as though we have this conversation ad nauseum, and I guess we do. In any case, here's what I have been wondering...

On the one hand, we describe our identity - butch - as masculine (regardless of how we identify beyond that, i.e. female, lesbian). So being butch encompasses things that are seen as "masculine". But then we are adamant that we are not masculine stereotypes. It really feels as though sometimes we want to be masculine in the good ways, but not in the bad ways or in the ways that just don't match us. So how do we describe our identity? What is it based on? Concepts of masculinity but NOT stereotypes? Aren't concepts of masculinity stereotypes themselves?

Thoughts?

[Corkey]

Well, I'm not a lesbian, and don't consider myself a female, so am I still Butch? For me yes. I have a female body, but who I am isn't defined by what I look like.
Stereotypes are everywhere. I don't think any label is going to fit every body. The more we as a community try to define, the more we divide.
My .02

[Jett]

I'm me and that's that... stereotypes are stereotypes and I try not to pay much attention to them... masculine or butch.

With that I think there's a big difference between "want to be" and what we just are... what we are is always just that, what we call it may be more in line with just what we see it as.

I call myself a butch because butch I think of as queered masculinity and I believe that's altogether a different thing than stereotypical masculinity. I feel it inside me as an energy that wants to come outward and not as something I'm taking into me from outside cues.

I don't emulate "the masculine stereotype" because butch to me doesn't mean being as "historical/traditionally masculine" as you possibly can, yes I open doors and pull out chairs but you would't catch me dead with a hairy lip or letting my brows go to caterpillar status even know perhaps some would see that as more masculine... but I don't give a crap what anyone thinks... because I'm not a stereotype.

IMO butch masculinity comes more in the heart than the head... it's not something you aspire to or look to anything or anyone else for, it just is what it is the way it is.

Metro

[AtLast]

What defines me as butch really has nothing to do with gender roles or gender in and of itself, concepts of female or male (masculine or feminine). Its about values, attitudes, historical perspectives, and a personal spiritual sense. Feminism, being female and lesbian just fit for me. Just don't for others. Also, my feelings about the range of bujtch identity includes admiration for those that are able to cut through patriarchal concepts and simply be without trying to oppress what butch means to others.

Thinking that my arriving at a peaceful space with butch does have a lot to do with being able to read and sift through all of the discussions that websites like this offer. Sure, there is disagreement among us, but where would we be if we didn’t look at what we all feel define us as butch?

What I have learned by many of you, is that I had to stretch my thinking, do research, and just listen to ideas. I just can’t throw out some arbitrary definition of butch (or femme, for that matter) or put anyone into any particular box. Sometimes this is difficult when I have had some swipes taken at my own brand of butch. I have certainly had defense-mode moments. However, these have become less and less as I just try to understand how really fluid butch (and femme) identity is. No way is butch a one definition fits all concept! And I don't need it to be.

Overall, I have just become more focused on how we can combat the stereotyping of our entire queer community as the outside world views it. Queer for me includes every single identity among us. And there is so much to accomplish out there with things life ENDA, same-sex marriage, homophobia , transphobia, along with all the usual anti-lesbian, gay, bi, BDSM, (what am I forgetting?) bigotry out there.

I don’t care about how someone identifies themselves. I do care that we (me included) have gone at each other in ways that do divide us and just don’t help with the real struggles that we need to deal with like incidences of violence (on-going hate crimes) against our people within the umbrella community of queers.

For me, the best thing to happen within this community has been to be taken to task at times. Hell, I now have connected in genuine ways with folks that I did so much battle with! Why? Because I finally went to the real source of conflict - myself. Sure, I’m going to take issue with posts at times, but not without trying to simply understand the things that are the most difficult for me to.

Be the butch you want to be…………. The has not served us well.

[Rockinonahigh]

Well Id make a mighty ugly femme no doubt about it.Im who I am by looks and actions,I dont have to prove a thing to anyone at any time,I shure dont need a label put on me by anyone..if its not your cup of tea dont pick it up.

[Darth Denkay]

Thanks for the responses. And to be clear, I'm definitely not searching for the definition of butch. I'm not looking to create a one-size-fits-all box for butch. Butch is coupled with masculinity, but then what is masculinity? For that matter, what is femininity? There are certain attributes that tend to be ascribed to those words; when do those attributes cease to be true descriptors and become stereotypes? I get that butch masculinity comes from within, it's not something we put on from the outside; it is our essence.

I think my question has much broader implications than just butch identity. Let me see if I can explain what's in my head. In the world there are countless identities folks embrace. Each identity is based on some group of characteristics - not that one must meet every criteria - but enough "fit" that the identity feels comfortable. Where do these characteristics stop and stereotypes begin? How can we distinguish between the two? That's really what I'm asking, whether it be about butch identity, feminist identity, scientist identity, or artist identity. Make sense?

[UofMfan]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

I'm me and that's that... stereotypes are stereotypes and I try not to pay much attention to them... masculine or butch.

With that I think there's a big difference between "want to be" and what we just are... what we are is always just that, what we call it may be more in line with just what we see it as.

I call myself a butch because butch I think of as queered masculinity and I believe that's altogether a different thing than stereotypical masculinity. I feel it inside me as an energy that wants to come outward and not as something I'm taking into me from outside cues.

I don't emulate "the masculine stereotype" because butch to me doesn't mean being as "historical/traditionally masculine" as you possibly can, yes I open doors and pull out chairs but you would't catch me dead with a hairy lip or letting my brows go to caterpillar status even know perhaps some would see that as more masculine... but I don't give a crap what anyone thinks... because I'm not a stereotype.

IMO butch masculinity comes more in the heart than the head... it's not something you aspire to or look to anything or anyone else for, it just is what it is the way it is.

Metro

As usual, your words are right on the money, at least in describing how I feel, am.

So to answer the question, what makes me butch? I would have to say that every cell in my body makes me so, in as far as to what Butch means to me.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by Darth Denkay

Thanks for the responses. And to be clear, I'm definitely not searching for the definition of butch. I'm not looking to create a one-size-fits-all box for butch. Butch is coupled with masculinity, but then what is masculinity? For that matter, what is femininity? There are certain attributes that tend to be ascribed to those words; when do those attributes cease to be true descriptors and become stereotypes? I get that butch masculinity comes from within, it's not something we put on from the outside; it is our essence.

I think my question has much broader implications than just butch identity. Let me see if I can explain what's in my head. In the world there are countless identities folks embrace. Each identity is based on some group of characteristics - not that one must meet every criteria - but enough "fit" that the identity feels comfortable. Where do these characteristics stop and stereotypes begin? How can we distinguish between the two? That's really what I'm asking, whether it be about butch identity, feminist identity, scientist identity, or artist identity. Make sense?

What makes a human, human.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Metropolis

I'm me and that's that... stereotypes are stereotypes and I try not to pay much attention to them... masculine or butch.

With that I think there's a big difference between "want to be" and what we just are... what we are is always just that, what we call it may be more in line with just what we see it as.

I call myself a butch because butch I think of as queered masculinity and I believe that's altogether a different thing than stereotypical masculinity. I feel it inside me as an energy that wants to come outward and not as something I'm taking into me from outside cues.

I don't emulate "the masculine stereotype" because butch to me doesn't mean being as "historical/traditionally masculine" as you possibly can, yes I open doors and pull out chairs but you would't catch me dead with a hairy lip or letting my brows go to caterpillar status even know perhaps some would see that as more masculine... but I don't give a crap what anyone thinks... because I'm not a stereotype.

IMO butch masculinity comes more in the heart than the head... it's not something you aspire to or look to anything or anyone else for, it just is what it is the way it is.

Metro

Yup, your thoughts here speak to me. Looks like to others, too. And there will be more ideas put forth. Which is why, even when I have been totally frustrated with issues of butch identity, I know that there are going to be varied ways of how we all present as butch. Yes, from the heart fits.

I can't believe that when I came back online to see what has been discussed, that you, Met, had talked about hair - chin & eyebrows!! Just yesterday, as I was pluckin' and shaving my legs, I was thinking about why I do so and had some stereotypic butch stuff go through my mind. Brought me back to my coming-out as a butch (later than of lot of butches) and things I used to feel about this not being very butch of me. Fuck that shit!

I am so glad I moved past this and just take it for what it is- what I personally prefer. Other butches feel differently. Kind of funny, really as one of the reasons I shave my legs has to do with muscles being more defined. I got so much negative BS as a girl-kid about having muscular legs from outside of my family, shaving them was kind of an act of rebellion for me, not having a thing to do with it being something that pre-teen girls do. I remember a doctor (male) telling me during a pap-test exam when I was in college (and still hetero) that I should stop racing bicycles because my legs were too muscular for a girl!! Yeppers, stereotypes suck! What is also interesting about this is that my Mom always complimented my legs because they were strong, like your Dad's (he was a pro cyclist when they courted and sparked and trained me). I had almost a reversed experience with this than I hear from many other butches that were involved in athletics (and their experiences way suck, too) . So weird. Now, due to back surgeries (atrophy from nerve damage) and not able to be as active as when I was younger, I have lost some of the muscle tone, but still have some damn leg and thigh muscles (sorta)- and I'm gonna let them show! Dammit, hence, the leg hair goes!!! Geeesssuuuussss!

I think honing in on the whole stereotype area is great in a thread. They have slapped us around a lot in different ways. So, looking at them from our own perspective of how we view our unique butch identities is really interesting. Just as is the butch-femme dynamic is in its entirety and evolution! Can’t wait to read more……

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by Darth Denkay

...Butch is coupled with masculinity, but then what is masculinity? For that matter, what is femininity?

...Where do these characteristics stop and stereotypes begin? How can we distinguish between the two? That's really what I'm asking, whether it be about butch identity, feminist identity, scientist identity, or artist identity. Make sense?

To me, masculinity and femininity are presentations, or representations, of the same energy, but differently.

I know...clear as mud.

Identical twins. Same appearance but often VERY different personalities. Butch and femme are like identical twins for me. Same energy, split equally and presented differently.

Stereotypes exist because of the same characteristics being shown, over and over again. Often, they are one and the same. The icky part kicks in when the stereotype becomes a caricature.

[Rockinonahigh]

To shave or NOT..For me not shaveing has come frome two places,one was an act of rebelion that I wasnt a girlie girl and hated shaveing anyway..and two..over the years it became less important to me to do so.I have a somewhat fuzzy upper lip right alone with every other women in my family cause its comes with the genetics of our family,funny thing is that several of my cousins who are the super femme type have it way worse than me.Corse tthey have had them removed one way or the other but im to chicken for electroisis to do that so onece in a while I shave it off if it gets ugly.
I to have been very active in sports and my body type is like a weight lifter so for the most part is still ok just run to some flab cause of a back/neck injury wich I will have fixed as much as possable this year,finaly I got an appointment with orthopedics at LSU hospital to check it out and then find the best way to go with it.I cant wait to feel good again and be able to hit the work outs like i should.

[Kobi]

Bar code on butt.

Sorry, am having an irreverent day.

[AtLast]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Bar code on butt.

Sorry, am having an irreverent day.

ROLF .... Did it hurt?

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by AtLastHome

ROLF .... Did it hurt?

Only hurt my pride when on scanning it was found I was marked down to 2.99. Damn Walmart.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Only hurt my pride when on scanning it was found I was marked down to 2.99. Damn Walmart.

If it was Wal-Mart, you would have been marked down to $2.87 or $2.96.

[Kobi]

Originally Posted by Gemme

If it was Wal-Mart, you would have been marked down to $2.87 or $2.96.

Have to love a femme who knows her prices. LOL.

[Gemme]

Originally Posted by Kobi

Have to love a femme who knows her prices. LOL.

*grin*

[diamondrose]

She's right. Wal-marts prices are never as even as 2.99 its always 2.94 or 2.96 or 2.97 lol

[PearlsNLace]

I might need to send Paphigleo an email of this, so that he understands why I grab the hand held scanner and aim it at his arse, next time we are at the megalithic corporate deamon buying groceries.

Wal mart takes coupons right?

[Kobi]

some hold packages while others do the shopping.