Transgender Professional Athletes

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by curlyredhead

Yes Dapper I compete with the men. That's where I belong. I think that a female that is trans should also be allowed to compete with women.

Exactly!!!

[candy_coated_bitch]

There's also a LOT of variation within both groups--cismen and ciswomen. And a lot of overlap. Plenty of cismen have low levels of testosterone and plenty of ciswomen have higher levels of testosterone than some cismen. There's a lot more overlap than you might think. Also in size and body type, etc. Most professional women athletes could leave 99% of cismen in the dust.

I think it's complicated when you start talking about hormone levels and such things. There's not a great way to measure that. But, with that being said if a person has transitioned I think the fairest thing is for them to compete under their chosen gender. All the policing gets insane after a while.

[Allison W]

Originally Posted by candy_coated_bitch

There's also a LOT of variation within both groups--cismen and ciswomen. And a lot of overlap. Plenty of cismen have low levels of testosterone and plenty of ciswomen have higher levels of testosterone than some cismen. There's a lot more overlap than you might think. Also in size and body type, etc. Most professional women athletes could leave 99% of cismen in the dust.

Not a lot of overlap in actual testosterone levels per se, outside of cases where someone's gonads have been removed or the like, but the rest, yes.

(Off-topic: I like the bit about most professional women athletes outperforming the vast majority of cisgendered men. Male-supremacist types really rage over that. As an added bonus, the performance gap between men and women even at the athlete level has been shrinking over the years. The future is bright.)

Originally Posted by candy_coated_bitch

I think it's complicated when you start talking about hormone levels and such things. There's not a great way to measure that. But, with that being said if a person has transitioned I think the fairest thing is for them to compete under their chosen gender. All the policing gets insane after a while.

Well, hormones can be measured with a blood test; I've had doctors do it. The ranges vary greatly within a given sex, but between them the difference is still pretty big. I wouldn't draw the line at "chosen gender," even as a transperson, but rather by the presence of what is probably the biggest sex-linked advantage, testosterone, and whether they're on it (for transmen) or no longer producing it in quantities abnormally high for a female athlete (for transwomen--and I think the "for a female athlete" is probably a meaningful qualifier, as it's not unusual for female athletes to have relatively high testosterone levels). Possibly even with an additional time qualifier, like two or three years of hormonal intervention, since it takes a while.

On transwomen's T levels, though, the recommended therapeutic level of testosterone for transwomen is actually very low in the female range. I haven't even had surgical interventions, just hormonal ones, myself, and I bring this up because even so I actually had blood tests showing T levels so far below the female range--even the recommended therapeutic range for transwomen--that my antiandrogens had to be reduced to raise them.

[candy_coated_bitch]

Originally Posted by Allison W

Not a lot of overlap in actual testosterone levels per se, outside of cases where someone's gonads have been removed or the like, but the rest, yes.

(Off-topic: I like the bit about most professional women athletes outperforming the vast majority of cisgendered men. Male-supremacist types really rage over that. As an added bonus, the performance gap between men and women even at the athlete level has been shrinking over the years. The future is bright.)

Well, hormones can be measured with a blood test; I've had doctors do it. The ranges vary greatly within a given sex, but between them the difference is still pretty big. I wouldn't draw the line at "chosen gender," even as a transperson, but rather by the presence of what is probably the biggest sex-linked advantage, testosterone, and whether they're on it (for transmen) or no longer producing it in quantities abnormally high for a female athlete (for transwomen--and I think the "for a female athlete" is probably a meaningful qualifier, as it's not unusual for female athletes to have relatively high testosterone levels). Possibly even with an additional time qualifier, like two or three years of hormonal intervention, since it takes a while.

On transwomen's T levels, though, the recommended therapeutic level of testosterone for transwomen is actually very low in the female range. I haven't even had surgical interventions, just hormonal ones, myself, and I bring this up because even so I actually had blood tests showing T levels so far below the female range--even the recommended therapeutic range for transwomen--that my antiandrogens had to be reduced to raise them.

I didn't mean that hormone levels can't LITERALLY be measured. I meant that trying to develop a fair and just and feasible way of judging athletes' hormone levels would be ridiculous. Plus, it's a red herring in my opinion.

As you said--the gap between women and men athletes is becoming more and more narrow anyhow. There's something more going on there besides hormones. I don't think testosterone is the only, and maybe not even the most important, factor in athletic performance. That's why I think a discussion about hormones is a red herring: because really the issue is about transphobia. That's why people freak about this--it challenges our notions of biological sex and gender on a very basic level.

Sports is one of the last bastions where complete separation of men and women is seen as not only ok, but necessary. I think treading on that blows people's minds a bit and makes them panic.

[Corkey]

Originally Posted by candy_coated_bitch

I didn't mean that hormone levels can't LITERALLY be measured. I meant that trying to develop a fair and just and feasible way of judging athletes' hormone levels would be ridiculous. Plus, it's a red herring in my opinion.

As you said--the gap between women and men athletes is becoming more and more narrow anyhow. There's something more going on there besides hormones. I don't think testosterone is the only, and maybe not even the most important, factor in athletic performance. That's why I think a discussion about hormones is a red herring: because really the issue is about transphobia. That's why people freak about this--it challenges our notions of biological sex and gender on a very basic level.

Sports is one of the last bastions where complete separation of men and women is seen as not only ok, but necessary. I think treading on that blows people's minds a bit and makes them panic.

This years Little League, Mo'ne (sp?) would be a prime example of the change in sports.

[vagina]

So would it be ok for transwomen to enter Bodybuilding competitions?

Because Bodybuilding is judged on size of muscle and striations. Image 1 shows that women bodied individuals cannot get below 10% body fat, it is dangerous. For male bodied individuals, bodybuilders compete below 4% body fat. There is an obvious advantage, as shown by image 2, 3. There is not a single woman anywhere that can get that big.





Seriously?

[Corkey]

First off, why the hell not? Secondly they would have to work 3X as hard to get the muscle mass of their competitors, or did you conveniently forget that hormones will not help? Obviously science isn't your strong suit.Your use of photos doesn't help your cause.

[DapperButch]

Originally Posted by vagina

So would it be ok for transwomen to enter Bodybuilding competitions?

Because Bodybuilding is judged on size of muscle and striations. Image 1 shows that women bodied individuals cannot get below 10% body fat, it is dangerous. For male bodied individuals, bodybuilders compete below 4% body fat. There is an obvious advantage, as shown by image 2, 3. There is not a single woman anywhere that can get that big.


Seriously?

Right, which is why it would be stupid for any person who has the testosterone levels of a female (a transwoman), to compete against men. They would lose.

[Gentle Tiger]

Great topic as always Medusa!

An interview with Fallon was aired on Brian Gumble's show, Real Sports. It was interesting. And it should be noted that her winning streak was ended by a woman who was born in a female body. Fallon's loss was because she came up against a better opponent. Period! Clearly there was no "advantage".

I think the only thing she or any other athlete should be judged on is what she does in the sport. Her record does not indicate that she has any advantage. I found this article and it somewhat articulates what think on the subject. Article

Do I think she or any other transgendered athlete is obligated to disclose personal information? No. Why? Because I still have not seen scientific data that shows she has any kind of advantage. And because what's in her bra or shorts is no one's business. She transitioned. She went through everything to become and compete as who she felt she was.

As to the matter of the photo Vagina posted, (paraphrasing here) so we could see what she was competing against...

1. There seems to be an assumption about what MTF players would look like and how they would perform. Not all MTF basketball players would be tall or taller than women who were born female. And there are people who were born in male bodies who were short (5' 5") who were able to out leap taller and more muscular players. Ex. Tyrone Curtis "Muggsy" Bogues. Somehow, he was able to dunk on his competitors yet he did not look like who he was supposed to compete against.

And that's all I will say on that for the moment.

[Corkey]

Anyone old enough to remember the 7'2" Russian BB player who came here to participate in an exhibition prior to women's BB being an Olympic sport?? I do, not her exact name because I still don't know how to pronounce it, I played against her, and she was a she no matter the crap that was written about her. The point here is that it doesn't matter what other people say about Transgender people and what sports we can play and whom we can play with or against. Sportsmanship requires nothing but doing ones personal best and having the integrity to play by the rules of the game. Everything else is a distraction.